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30 min vid about the dumbing down of The Elder Scrolls franchise

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Here... scrub this video to 4:00 in and you'll see exactly why I complained about the guy in the rebuttal video to "dumbing down" going on about how he likes quest markers and how quests that tell you where to search for something is, as he says, "archaic design that has no business in modern games." (para.) I lost any and all consideration of respect for his position on the "dumbing down" when that came out of his mouth. 4 minutes in, this guy makes it so clear nothing else needs to be said.

 

I found his comments about "fun" interesting.  I do say that games should be fun but what do I mean by that?  I actually mean different things depending on the game.  In the current 392 PoE build I have played on easy.  Easy is easy because you can just use the AI in combat and win most of the encounters.    Is this really a good thing for new players?  At first I thought so but now I am wondering.  They don't need to learn tactics, don't really need to think about what the party members are doing.   I find easy boring, not "fun" because it isn't challenging.So for me challenging can be fun.

 

Skyrim is a fun game if I play it as an adventure game and not as a RPG.

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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I really like the point he makes on the dumbing down of the game with the example of selling items. Even in old school BG, compared to later classical rpg's, it seems that rare items are becoming less valuable. 

In BG That ring you find for your wizard in the bush outside the friendly arms inn, and the first +1 item you get is fantastic, you can nearly keep that the entire game.

 

Some of the items you'd get you wouldn't sell, even if you were not going to use them, just feels like a reward having them. 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

 

I also think you should be able to wear more accessories.  I LOVED torment for the fact you could ACTUALLY wear an earring. like **** yea, finally..and then..never again WTF!@#

 

I also love Skyrim and have played like 2000 hours of it, and haven't yet gotten too far in the main storyline... havent beaten it yet. I like adventuring in it. Course im lvl 50 now... but I do love just wandering around and exploring. Its a simple game though, not much of an RPG unless you think of it as a weak RPG.

 

Tactics in POE are ...IMO pretty decent, Im only starting to learn. At first, I couldnt even win a fight easily using the AI, until now, I challenge myself to master encounters by targetting the enemies weakness's, like when you play dnd. But, doing that on easy, is too easy. playing the game - on a setting that describes you, really is what you want. Casual is casual. But if your going to concentrate, think about the game while your trying to sleep and can't wait for the next patch past 392... like me, then you want to keep trying new things and playing on harder settings. even though the xp doesn't increase, or the rewards are minimally increased, its feels good to survive.

 

Its feels like an RPG. I want so badly for POE to become this next big franchise that never steers away form the true heart and intent of RPG(classicwise), I really do. I also want it to become modern in many things too.  Im really excited about PoE, but won't discuss much of it here in this thread, as its in the wrong section.

Edited by Azmodiuz
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Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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I found his comments about "fun" interesting.  I do say that games should be fun but what do I mean by that?  I actually mean different things depending on the game.  In the current 392 PoE build I have played on easy.  Easy is easy because you can just use the AI in combat and win most of the encounters.    Is this really a good thing for new players?  At first I thought so but now I am wondering.  They don't need to learn tactics, don't really need to think about what the party members are doing.   I find easy boring, not "fun" because it isn't challenging.So for me challenging can be fun.

 

Skyrim is a fun game if I play it as an adventure game and not as a RPG.

 

 

LOL I stared on normal and went to easy because I realized all the classes no longer worked like they did several months ago and I was getting hosed. For instance: I wasn't using my cleric to pick up line breakers, because 3-4 months ago they couldn't seem to handle melee at all. At the time, I kept them way in the back to avoid losing my healer. I'll dial it back up after I get use to everything.


Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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I really like the point he makes on the dumbing down of the game with the example of selling items. Even in old school BG, compared to later classical rpg's, it seems that rare items are becoming less valuable. 

 

In BG That ring you find for your wizard in the bush outside the friendly arms inn, and the first +1 item you get is fantastic, you can nearly keep that the entire game.

 

Some of the items you'd get you wouldn't sell, even if you were not going to use them, just feels like a reward having them. 

 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

 

I also think you should be able to wear more accessories.  I LOVED torment for the fact you could ACTUALLY wear an earring. like **** yea, finally..and then..never again WTF!@#

 

I do hate the collecting of junk from millions of containers and selling it. I also hate level requirements too. If you don't want the player to use it until level X, then keep it off the roll table until then.

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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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There is definitely a learning curve in PoE.  I hope they have a good tutorial.   I think easy is good for learning about tactics if people realize that it is good for that.  Friendly fire, AoE damage or debuff.  Does a spell or weapon work on that particular enemy.    Normal difficulty certainly isn't easy.  They are still working on combat so it will probably change in the next Backers Beta update.  

 

I like the spell system in PoE much better than the one in the BG games.  People complain about the wizard but I have had good success with him, the BB wizard.  Once they fix the bug in the party management I want to make my own party.  

 

Overall I like what the devs have done.  Now IMO they need to concentrate on fixing bugs, making sure spells etc work properly.   I am looking forward to playing PoE.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I really like the point he makes on the dumbing down of the game with the example of selling items. Even in old school BG, compared to later classical rpg's, it seems that rare items are becoming less valuable. 

 

I've got some disappointing news for you then...

 

 

 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

Emphasis mine.  Crafting is the primary reason that special items are become less valuable.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I really like the point he makes on the dumbing down of the game with the example of selling items. Even in old school BG, compared to later classical rpg's, it seems that rare items are becoming less valuable. 

 

I've got some disappointing news for you then...

 

 

 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

Emphasis mine.  Crafting is the primary reason that special items are become less valuable.

 

 But I want to slightly modify the great items we find. Say i found a great steel armor, why not stick my chrest on it, hammer its kinks out, if its close to my size, get it refit, and throw a cloak on it or something too. overall, it is still 95% of the same armor I found..but I crafted some small difference into it. THAT I would enjoy.

 

I would love to make the mundane things, and the benifit is small but mainly more customizable appearances. But within reason.

 

how often do you start a agme, already an adventurer, but have no equipment? no cloak no boots no belt, nothing you have is worth much at all... yet to be realistic, you probably have lucky boots and belt and a favorite hoody you like to wear, that kind of marks you as you to your aquiantences. I wish we had those customizations when creating our character. And being able to choose a small bonus , seems all the npc's have better gear then you, why is that !??! They really shouldn't.  It should be customised to what they can afford and like to usewear etc..  

 

I also wish, you could ALWAYs loot everything, but people reacted accordingly for stripping down the woman you just murdered for her bright red shoes...

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Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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http://createyourminis.com/ Speaking of dumbing down...  this site does the opposite, but to miniatures. Thought to share that kickstarter, they seem to need peeps to hit their goal, and I think they have a great idea. I bought the 7$ option, just to potentially make my favorite character I always play in RPGs


Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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In BG That ring you find for your wizard in the bush outside the friendly arms inn, and the first +1 item you get is fantastic, you can nearly keep that the entire game.

 

Some of the items you'd get you wouldn't sell, even if you were not going to use them, just feels like a reward having them. 

 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

 

I also think you should be able to wear more accessories.  I LOVED torment for the fact you could ACTUALLY wear an earring. like **** yea, finally..and then..never again WTF!@#

 

I agree with those points! 

 

I prefer less loot, but more meaning behind it. So that every upgrade feels important and cool and not that you change gear after every five quests. 

 

A good crafting system would be cool too. DA:I went the right path with letting material determine color of gear, but did not go far enough for my tastes. 

 

I also wish there were more accessories... I love earrings, but for some reason those were only an option in old school RPGs. 

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Viva la Easy!

 

Easy is definitely necessary. It's become droll for us because we've had so much experience with the game already. For people new to IE-type games, I think many will need to play on easy to keep them from giving up on this game. Besides, I like easy difficulty to do completionist playthroughs where I can concentrate on doing everything, but not have to worry too much about getting destroyed during my putterings around.

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Viva la Easy!

 

Easy is definitely necessary. It's become droll for us because we've had so much experience with the game already. For people new to IE-type games, I think many will need to play on easy to keep them from giving up on this game. Besides, I like easy difficulty to do completionist playthroughs where I can concentrate on doing everything, but not have to worry too much about getting destroyed during my putterings around.

I agree with you.  I think all the discussion and complaining in the BB forums has me muddled.   PoE is not a D&D game and in fact if it had been advertised as a D&D game I probably would not have backed it.  For me it is the story and characters both companions and NPCs that I look forward to.  The quests which I think will be interesting and replayable.   Combat is just something I have to get through in order to complete quests and explore.   I like the spell system in PoE and disliked the spell system in the D&D games.  I enjoyed Arcanum and Planetscape/torment because they were different.  Not long ago I tried BG I EE and was not impressed.

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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I can understand not being too fond of BG1. My love of the game comes from being a teenager and playing that game at a friends house. It blew my mind that I could play a game like that- with a story no less!- on a computer. The only other games I ever played were Warcraft and Diablo. That game is the reason I harassed my mom for months to buy a PC for the house (back when computers only really existed at school/work/homes of people with disposable income). It's what made me a computer gamer. It opened me up to other games, like Fallout. 

 

I think that is true for a lot of folks that backed PoE. When BG1 came out it was the promised land for RPG gaming. I'm not sure if it still holds up on its own virtues, but RPG gaming now owes a lot to it. I think BG2 still holds up well, tho. It was one of those rare instances where the sequel blows your mind so hard you realize you've been playing the game for four straight days and are about to die of hunger. At least BG2 reminded you to eat during loading screens, tho :)

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I liked BG2 much better than BG!.  Had a lot of fun with that game.  My very first CRPG was Betrayal at Krondor and that ancient game blew my mind and got me addicted to CRPGs.  I was also a fan of the Riftwar stories so loved meeting some old friends in that game.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I haven't played Skyrim much for two reasons:

1) Simply don't have time to explore huge sandbox worlds anymore.

2) TES combat system isn't my favorite. I don't like first-person view and real-time combat in CRPGs.

 

This being said, the game is amazing. It looks fantastic and feels awesome. And the selection of mods... leaves me speechless. Again, I'm not even a TES fan in general. But hearing people say that Skyrim is a bad and dumbed down game just makes me sad. Count me troll'd.

Edited by prodigydancer

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Arena the first game in the series was not originally conceived as an RPG.  The idea was to have the player take a team of fighters through the world fighting other teams until they became the Grand Champion.   However strongly influenced by other RpGs of the period more and more role playing elements were added until finally the arena fights were dropped.  It became a story driven rpg and was released in 1994.    A fact not known by many players is that there was no arena in Arena.  

 

I think the mistake that Bethesda made was in dropping the story driven element from Oblivion and Skyrim.  This in my opinion has changed the dynamics of the game so that it is no longer a true RPG.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I agree with you.  I think all the discussion and complaining in the BB forums has me muddled.   PoE is not a D&D game and in fact if it had been advertised as a D&D game I probably would not have backed it.  For me it is the story and characters both companions and NPCs that I look forward to.  The quests which I think will be interesting and replayable.   Combat is just something I have to get through in order to complete quests and explore.   I like the spell system in PoE and disliked the spell system in the D&D games.  I enjoyed Arcanum and Planetscape/torment because they were different.  Not long ago I tried BG I EE and was not impressed.

I can completely understand not liking the (A)D&D rule set. It's not hard to find people who loved the IE games in spite of them being D&D based (for example).

 

But what I don't understand is this part:

For me it is the story and characters both companions and NPCs that I look forward to.

These are not rare game qualities. That is to say, if you're just craving a good story and memorable companions/NPCs you don't need to seek out indie/kickstarter games to find them. What PoE brings to the table is the OTHER stuff. The stuff that IS difficult (almost impossible, in fact) to find in today's rpgs... such as the gameplay... a game that plays like a *game* rather than a glorified interactive movie. The tactical party based combat, with its Isometric camera view of the battlefield and its real time with pause. The complex stat-driven character building, And of course the PC oriented controls, etc. Edited by Stun
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I have never understood what people mean when they talk about gameplay.  To me gameplay is the overall "feel" of the game.  From the first character build to the final battle or confrontation.  Arcanum had both real time and turn based combat.  I mostly played in turn based.      I have no  idea what "system" of combat Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have but have played those games for hours and enjoyed them although Oblivion and Skyrim IMO have no real story theme.

 

I also like city builders and when I find one I like I switch off and play those.  I was familiar with the PnP D&D games.   I guess I am just  bothered by the emphasis I am seeing placed on D&D rules or systems that I am seeing.  In ovation or evolution may not always be good but sometimes it means the difference between survival and extinction.  Following in the footsteps of tradition or clinging to the past can be stifling.

 

I am a long time member of a fan-site forum set up in 2000 to support the infinity engine games specifically at the time BG 1.  D&D rules have to be learned.  Many people came on the forum confused frequently asking what AC was and not understanding that it was a minus figure.  The lower the number the better.  Someone finally made a thread listing the spells in order of usefulness with discription. 

 

My point is that there is no perfect game, no perfect spell system, no perfect combat system etc because we each like different things.  There is simply no way to please 100% of the people 100% of the time.  I do not expect to be 100% happy with PoE but from what I have read and played so far I think I will be at least 90% pleased and maybe even more.  I will be happy.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I really like the point he makes on the dumbing down of the game with the example of selling items. Even in old school BG, compared to later classical rpg's, it seems that rare items are becoming less valuable. 

 

I've got some disappointing news for you then...

 

 

 

In rpg's today, you sell sell sell.... ****, in divinity:original sin, I sell soo much junk, its not even funny. I do not like level requirements, that makes no sense to me, I also wish in rpg's today, you had a great crafting system.

 

I would like to be able to craft a scarf, a necklace, rings, boots, belts, pants, and choose the colors, tints, general look and style, and be able to select small changes to its stats. nothing game changing, but being able to slightly modify stuff would be nice too.

Emphasis mine.  Crafting is the primary reason that special items are become less valuable.

 

 But I want to slightly modify the great items we find. Say i found a great steel armor, why not stick my chrest on it, hammer its kinks out, if its close to my size, get it refit, and throw a cloak on it or something too. overall, it is still 95% of the same armor I found..but I crafted some small difference into it. THAT I would enjoy.

 

 

That's not a bad idea.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I agree with you.  I think all the discussion and complaining in the BB forums has me muddled.   PoE is not a D&D game and in fact if it had been advertised as a D&D game I probably would not have backed it.  For me it is the story and characters both companions and NPCs that I look forward to.  The quests which I think will be interesting and replayable.   Combat is just something I have to get through in order to complete quests and explore.   I like the spell system in PoE and disliked the spell system in the D&D games.  I enjoyed Arcanum and Planetscape/torment because they were different.  Not long ago I tried BG I EE and was not impressed.

I can completely understand not liking the (A)D&D rule set. It's not hard to find people who loved the IE games in spite of them being D&D based (for example).

 

But what I don't understand is this part:

For me it is the story and characters both companions and NPCs that I look forward to.

These are not rare game qualities. That is to say, if you're just craving a good story and memorable companions/NPCs you don't need to seek out indie/kickstarter games to find them. What PoE brings to the table is the OTHER stuff. The stuff that IS difficult (almost impossible, in fact) to find in today's rpgs... such as the gameplay... a game that plays like a *game* rather than a glorified interactive movie. The tactical party based combat, with its Isometric camera view of the battlefield and its real time with pause. The complex stat-driven character building, And of course the PC oriented controls, etc.

 

 

It's one thing to have a good story, it's another to have a good story with a lot of choices that influence the world. 

 

For example, Bioware games have a lot of choices, but what makes their games good are companions or memorable scenes. The main plot is usually very simple and there is little complexity.

 

Or perhaps let's consider Fallout: New Vegas. Great game, lots of choices that change the world, but in the end it's mainly an open world game, not an RPG with a tight story and a lot of dialogue options that will give you room to RP your character. Mostly the game is about the world, about sightseeing and about changing this place for better or worse.

 

What I really want from Pillars of Eternity is a mix between MotB and Kotor 2. Good personal story with room for roleplay, memorable companions that are heavily involved in the storyline, choices that allow you to shape your story and leaving an impact on the game world.

 

You would think there would be games like that, but unfortunately the game that comes closest to creating such an experience would be Shadowrun: Dragonfall (and Bioware games if you are feeling generous). It's an awfully little selection, if you ask me, even when considering Bioware games. 

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A story can be simple but still set the theme for the game.  Both Morrowind and Planescape/Torment both favorites of mine have a simple theme "Who am I?".  In both games you can do a lot of wandering around, doing side quests and developing your character.  Fallout NV is another favorite of mine.  The theme is there but your are not tightly bound by it.  Maybe I like a bit of mystery to my games.  I like having good antagonists too, ones that stand out in my mind  However they do not need to dominate the game, sometimes you don't know who the real enemy is until near the end of the game.

 

On the question of combat in a game I have been thinking about it and I don't think the actual system of combat is important.  You need to be able to win in order to progress so yes for that you need decent mechanics but how many of us actually know the combat system used in a game?  The system can change in a series.   I don't remember the name of the game but I passed on a game when I played the demo and simply was not able to stay alive for long enough to complete the demo.

 

Mechanics are important to gameplay but I think if they stand out to much they detract from the game.  They should be subtle only word I can think of to describe what  mean.  If I can block, strike, crush, pierce, have spells that do the job I don't need to know the actual mechanics of how it works.    Baldurs Gate 2 was fun for me because I could role play, actually rescuing Imoen was secondary.  I didn't like her anyway.  I also like ambiguity in games, good and evil are not as clear cut as we like to think.

 

I think we sometimes get tied into a "system" and have a hard time thinking outside the box.  We humans need variety, of all kinds because we are ourselves varied.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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For those who came into TES at Oblivion the Oblivion -> Skyrim jump wasn't as big. But if you compare the mechanics and freedom you had in Morrowind to Skyrim it becomes pretty obvious they've been mainstreaming the franchise. I'm not really sure there is any depth left in Skyrim they could possibly remove for the next iteration. Unless they start trying to do things like combine stamina and magicka.

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For those who came into TES at Oblivion the Oblivion -> Skyrim jump wasn't as big. But if you compare the mechanics and freedom you had in Morrowind to Skyrim it becomes pretty obvious they've been mainstreaming the franchise. I'm not really sure there is any depth left in Skyrim they could possibly remove for the next iteration. Unless they start trying to do things like combine stamina and magicka.

Or they could get rid of the perks and racial abilities. Really Skyrim's skill system has more depth than Oblivion's.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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For those who came into TES at Oblivion the Oblivion -> Skyrim jump wasn't as big. But if you compare the mechanics and freedom you had in Morrowind to Skyrim it becomes pretty obvious they've been mainstreaming the franchise. I'm not really sure there is any depth left in Skyrim they could possibly remove for the next iteration. Unless they start trying to do things like combine stamina and magicka.

Or they could get rid of the perks and racial abilities. Really Skyrim's skill system has more depth than Oblivion's.

 

 

If you consider making the skills a talent tree instead of a linear progression to 100 and consolidating them from 21 to 18 depth, sure. The skill perks are mostly the same as they had been with the exception of new ones to highlight Skyrim's new combat features.

 

That said, I was mostly referring to the continued devolution of attributes and how precisely you can control your characters growth. In Morrowind you go from system with 8 primary attributes and 4 secondary attributes that receive bonuses dependent on what governed skills you increased that level to health-stamina-magicka in Skyrim.

 

The skill system they just abstracted out into a talent tree because they had to replace the gutted attribute system with something. A flashy UI sequence and allocating a point to unlock a 'perk' you likely would have gotten from simply using the associated skill in a prior iteration of the game doesn't create depth.

 

Remember, that in Morrowind you had Axe/Blunt/LongBlade/ShortBlade/Spear skills, in Oblivion you had Blade/Blunt and in Skyrim you have 1h/2h.

 

This is without even talking about how enchanting is a joke in Skyrim. All it is is generic stat boosts now. Reminds me of enchanting in an MMO.

 

Since I'm probably coming off jaded, I have all 3 titles and all of their content expansions (no horse armor) and probably 200hrs+ in each title. The direction they're going with the game bothers me because I care about the franchise.

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For those who came into TES at Oblivion the Oblivion -> Skyrim jump wasn't as big. But if you compare the mechanics and freedom you had in Morrowind to Skyrim it becomes pretty obvious they've been mainstreaming the franchise. I'm not really sure there is any depth left in Skyrim they could possibly remove for the next iteration. Unless they start trying to do things like combine stamina and magicka.

Or they could get rid of the perks and racial abilities. Really Skyrim's skill system has more depth than Oblivion's.

 

 

If you consider making the skills a talent tree instead of a linear progression to 100 and consolidating them from 21 to 18 depth, sure. The skill perks are mostly the same as they had been with the exception of new ones to highlight Skyrim's new combat features.

 

That said, I was mostly referring to the continued devolution of attributes and how precisely you can control your characters growth. In Morrowind you go from system with 8 primary attributes and 4 secondary attributes that receive bonuses dependent on what governed skills you increased that level to health-stamina-magicka in Skyrim.

 

The skill system they just abstracted out into a talent tree because they had to replace the gutted attribute system with something. A flashy UI sequence and allocating a point to unlock a 'perk' you likely would have gotten from simply using the associated skill in a prior iteration of the game doesn't create depth.

 

Remember, that in Morrowind you had Axe/Blunt/LongBlade/ShortBlade/Spear skills, in Oblivion you had Blade/Blunt and in Skyrim you have 1h/2h.

 

This is without even talking about how enchanting is a joke in Skyrim. All it is is generic stat boosts now. Reminds me of enchanting in an MMO.

 

Since I'm probably coming off jaded, I have all 3 titles and all of their content expansions (no horse armor) and probably 200hrs+ in each title. The direction they're going with the game bothers me because I care about the franchise.

 

I don't want to be too much a downer, but...

 

...I don't believe for a second that Bethesda is going to go take TES back in the direction of Morrowind. In all likelihood, they will continue down the road of removing anything that looks like an RPG mechanic of favour of straight-up action gameplay. Like it or not, Skyrim was a hugely successful game and Bethesda doesn't really have any motivation to bring back the depth of complexity of earlier games.


"There is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." - Leo Tolstoy

 

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For those who came into TES at Oblivion the Oblivion -> Skyrim jump wasn't as big. But if you compare the mechanics and freedom you had in Morrowind to Skyrim it becomes pretty obvious they've been mainstreaming the franchise. I'm not really sure there is any depth left in Skyrim they could possibly remove for the next iteration. Unless they start trying to do things like combine stamina and magicka.

Or they could get rid of the perks and racial abilities. Really Skyrim's skill system has more depth than Oblivion's.

 

 

If you consider making the skills a talent tree instead of a linear progression to 100 and consolidating them from 21 to 18 depth, sure. The skill perks are mostly the same as they had been with the exception of new ones to highlight Skyrim's new combat features.

 

That said, I was mostly referring to the continued devolution of attributes and how precisely you can control your characters growth. In Morrowind you go from system with 8 primary attributes and 4 secondary attributes that receive bonuses dependent on what governed skills you increased that level to health-stamina-magicka in Skyrim.

 

The skill system they just abstracted out into a talent tree because they had to replace the gutted attribute system with something. A flashy UI sequence and allocating a point to unlock a 'perk' you likely would have gotten from simply using the associated skill in a prior iteration of the game doesn't create depth.

 

Remember, that in Morrowind you had Axe/Blunt/LongBlade/ShortBlade/Spear skills, in Oblivion you had Blade/Blunt and in Skyrim you have 1h/2h.

 

This is without even talking about how enchanting is a joke in Skyrim. All it is is generic stat boosts now. Reminds me of enchanting in an MMO.

 

Since I'm probably coming off jaded, I have all 3 titles and all of their content expansions (no horse armor) and probably 200hrs+ in each title. The direction they're going with the game bothers me because I care about the franchise.

 

I don't want to be too much a downer, but...

 

...I don't believe for a second that Bethesda is going to go take TES back in the direction of Morrowind. In all likelihood, they will continue down the road of removing anything that looks like an RPG mechanic of favour of straight-up action gameplay. Like it or not, Skyrim was a hugely successful game and Bethesda doesn't really have any motivation to bring back the depth of complexity of earlier games.

 

 

No doubt, which is why I said in my original post I'm not sure of what else they could mainstream out of the game. Enchanting is MMO lvl, if they take out skill perks the only customization left would be health-stamina-magicka.

 

The core gameplay and attraction is the open world and relative freedom to do whatever in it. Radiant AI introduced in Oblivion was a great step forward as far as NPC tech goes. Its just sad with the mainstreaming of the underlying mechanics playing the game is more akin to being a tourist than being in the game.

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