American Riots, Michael Brown....is it justified ?

[Malcador]

Had rallies here too, which was surprising as it's another country. I guess a fault of the media making this trial a large issue(people show up for this, but blacks are getting killed quite often here and zilch for that). One of the people here did make a good point about it being more about how blacks are excluded from society (though would have to think on a case by case basis with that, some people are just trash, after all).

[BruceVC]

 

Stop turning things upside down. We are talking about convicted criminals or criminals caught in the act. If the police do not exceed the limits of the law then I don't see any reason to defend them, especially "because they black, and racism" argument. 

 

Everyone have the right for a lawyer in court that is obvious. SWJ defending criminals because of the color of the skin are not necessary.

 

 

 

And about this "statistics aren't rocket science", there is a reason why sensible sociologists, historians and political scientists are often wary about drawing immediate conclusions from statistics. Think about it — is the fact that more blacks are convicted a consequence of blacks actually committing more crimes, or is the statistic of crimes committed by blacks higher due to more blacks being convicted?

 

edit: beaten to the punch

 

 

This is an interesting point raised. I did bring this up earlier, Rudy Giuliani alluded to the fact that police officers arrest more black people in the USA because crime is more prevalent in there communities. So in other words the police go where the crime is

 

 

But now I'm not so sure, Namutree's idea of the whole drug war also makes me question these statistics but I also read this link which basically debunks what Giuliani was saying

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/11/24/what-rudy-giuliani-gets-wrong-about-the-deaths-of-young-black-men/

[butterfly]

 

 

 

If you feel this is "turning things upside down" then you're not really getting this discussion, sorry to say. Everyone agrees that the criminal got caught and that the rioters are criminals. We're discussing why it's happening and what the implications of that is..

What? Please check what I was discussing with butterfly. We were definitely not discussing what you just wrote and my response had nothing to do with rioters.

 

 

 

Statistics are a little more complicated than "blacks commit more crime" - " more blacks get shot by police" = 1-1 =0. It's actually a very complicated problem compiling and analysing all the data.

 

You're caricature shows to me that you're not really listening. Law enforcement is more than "see crime, arrest criminal".

 

What i'm advocating is that when there are doubts about police behaviour, those are investigated thoroughly. And that people don't say, like you do, "oh a police officer shot a criminal, that's OK then".

 

And could you explain to me why criminals should never be defended from the Police. There are in fact many such protections enshrined in law, do you disapprove of these?

Let's not change statistics into rocket science. It's fairly simple if black people commit more crimes then white people then more black people gets arrested statistically. If this do not happen then we have a deviation from statistic and other factors are in play.

 

Where did I say that if there are doubts the situation should not be investigated? All I said is that white policeman shooting black criminal is not a reasonable case "because racism". it's like I said in the very first post the case is simple "was the shooting justified", the color of skin is not a factor in proving that.

 

Stop turning things upside down. We are talking about convicted criminals or criminals caught in the act. If the police do not exceed the limits of the law then I don't see any reason to defend them, especially "because they black, and racism" argument. 

 

Everyone have the right for a lawyer in court that is obvious. SWJ defending criminals because of the color of the skin are not necessary.

 

 

Doing statistics correct IS a rocket science. How are you going to measure crime levels vs arrest levels. You can't use arrest levels obviously 'cause that would be circular. Data can be incomplete or manipulated. This link by example discusses the incompleteness of the record on police killings, with unjustifiable shootings not even being recorded.

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/

 

An unarmed man was shot to dead at a considerable distance from the policeman who sustained no serious injury. How was this justifed again, and how is this it so clear that nobody could have reasonable even serious doubts about it?

 

 

I'm not DOING statistics. I'm using the ones already done, and comparing them.

You claim that police shooting black people are higher than shooting white people and that this is disproportionate. According to the statistics, it's not. If not on statistic then on what grounds you claim those things? Maybe back up your statement before attacking others that have solid grounds for theirs.

 

I don't know the specifics. From what info was published I see that the killed person was attacking the policeman. The situation WASN'T clear from the start and the policeman WAS investigated. So the doubts were cleared before the jury. Again the reasonable doubt wasn't the color of the skin of the policeman and criminal, but the shooting itself.

 

 

I've actually been looking for clear and concise stats to use here. I'm glad you found them could you please link the or give a summary.

 

Anyway here is a link to a story about disproportionately shootings of black people.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

 

And once again even now the situation is not clear that the shooting was justified. People don't trust that the investigation was done in good faith and not without reason.

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/allegations-of-police-misconduct-rarely-result-in-charges/

 

If this was an isolated case you're point about race not being an issue would be valid. But it's not an isolated case. You're not even saying that race doesn't have an impact , you're saying nobody reasonable could think it did. And sorry but that's just delusional because obvious a large group of people do.

[butterfly]

 

No one in this thread is arguing whether police acting perfectly lawfully in a scenario where violent criminals threaten their lives are entitled to use deadly force. That is not really what's happening here and elsewhere.

 

 

Well butterfly is arguing exactly that. That police shoots black people because they are white, and that every white policeman catching or shooting black people is racist regardless of what the black person committed.

 

I'm not arguing that police is not exceeding the law, ever. When they do, they need to be prosecuted for it. But the fact that white policeman shots black criminal is not a cause for prosecution.

 

 

I'm not. I don't believe Wilson is racist nor that he shot brown in cold blooded murder. I believe he probably wasn't thinking all that much. You seem to believe discrimination is something wilfully done by racist people. While that is sometimes true it mostly is a case of subtle unconscious prejudices shaping a policy that turns out to be discriminatory. Suppose that a police officer is 0.001 % procent more likely to judge a situation to be life threatening if the assailant is black. Now multiply that by thousands of incidents.

[Guard Dog]

You now the media & the local government did everything possible to provoke this mess. The grand jury verdict was in around noon that day. Why wait until 9 PM and make announcements every hour on the time? Just release it with a low key press conference before crowds gather. Instead they wait until night when everyone is off work and has plenty of time to gather. All the while the media is going on about how there will be riots and how unjust it will be if the cop gets no-billed. Then it happens in a big media spectacle. The "black community leaders" if you want to call them that whip everyone into a frenzy. Barack Obama himself, who did not attend a single minute of Grand Jury testimony and is not in a position to know the first thing about it appeals for calm on one side of his mouth while saying how fuc--d up the country is with the other. And after all this a bunch of folks, some of whom don't even know why they are doing it go out and loot and burn down their own neighborhoods like the pack of savages the media just spent all day telling them they were. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Guard Dog

[Namutree]

 

So what exactly are you saying? That most of black people in USA jails and prisons are innocent and as a result of oppressive system? Anything to back this up? Any proof that there is a higher percentage of black people being misjudged?

 

There is no evidence of systemic conviction of innocent black people. There is evidence of harsher sentences and greater police scrutiny of black people.

 

As in; if a non-black person commits a crime he/she is less likely to be caught and punished than if he/she was black. Even if the non-black person is punished; the punishment is likely to be less harsh than if the criminal were black. It's not innocent blacks being punished for crimes they didn't commit; it's guilty blacks being punished harsher than they should be.

 

There are people who believe that white privilege is a serious problem in the US. I believe they are wrong. The system isn't as much pro-white as it is anti-black. They also aren't oppressed deliberately. It is happenstance.

 

The Drug War is meant for everyone, but blacks are poorest and thus the most affected. The people who believe the drug war is good don't hate black people; they just don't want to believe that the system is unfairly targeting them.

[butterfly]

 

So what exactly are you saying? That most of black people in USA jails and prisons are innocent and as a result of oppressive system? Anything to back this up? Any proof that there is a higher percentage of black people being misjudged?

 

 

Well there is this piece by John Oliver on Last week Tonight. And once again you don't need to be innocent to be treated unjustly.

 

[Namutree]

 Barack Obama himself, who did not attend a single minute of Grand Jury testimony and is not in a position to know the first thing about it appeals for calm on one side of his mouth while saying how fuc--d up the country is with the other. 

More importantly is that he doesn't tell them what they can do about it. He doesn't say; the relationship between the black community and law enforcement could be mended if the drug war were ended. He just says, "Well, use this anger for something positive." - Not a direct quote, but the jist of what he said. 

 

He needs to be more bold and actually name things that should change.

[Malcador]

So when you say the drug war ended what are you envisioning, by the way ?

 

Doubt that'd do much to fix the problem of blacks in US society.

[Guard Dog]

 

 Barack Obama himself, who did not attend a single minute of Grand Jury testimony and is not in a position to know the first thing about it appeals for calm on one side of his mouth while saying how fuc--d up the country is with the other. 

More importantly is that he doesn't tell them what they can do about it. He doesn't say; the relationship between the black community and law enforcement could be mended if the drug war were ended. He just says, "Well, use this anger for something positive." - Not a direct quote, but the jist of what he said. 

 

He needs to be more bold and actually name things that should change.

 

Obama is a politician. As such he is far more interested in exploiting problems than fixing them. Politically they need black community to be in a constant state of rage and mistrust. That way they can run ads that say it's all the Republicans fault during the election cycles. Demagoguery does not work when folks are reasonably happy. 

 

That's the worst part of this I think. They whip these folks into a rage and then set them loose for very cynical and selfish reasons. If all racism, real or perceived, were to end tomorrow do you know who would be out of a job? Al Sharpton & Co. Makes you think every time you see him show up at a place where he can cry "racism".

Edited November 26, 2014 by Guard Dog

[butterfly]

 

And once again even now the situation is not clear that the shooting was justified. People don't trust that the investigation was done in good faith and not without reason.

What people? Can you give me an exact estimate how much of the country thinks that?

The rioters just want to blow off some steam, break and steal some stuff.

politicians who directly benefits from stating that black minority is oppressed?

Come on.

 

If there is so much distrust in the whole police and justice system then USA have a real problem. When people back up criminals against policeman and judges it's just sad.

 

 

No I cannot give an exact estimate, I'm not a polling agency. But how about the people who were protesting peacefully, how about discourse about discrimination going back decades. None of this is new.

 

I haven't been talking about rioters. I don't have much respect for looters and vandals actually. When a large group of marginalized people get angry looting can occur yes. Saying that doesn't invalidate the issues nor is it defending rioting.

 

I think the point is the whole police and justice system in the USA does have  real problems.

[Namutree]

So when you say the drug war ended what are you envisioning, by the way ?

 

Doubt that'd do much to fix the problem of blacks in US society.

There are many ways to end the drug war; here is what I feel is the most realistic:

 

1) Officially declare the campaign over. This won't do much practically speaking, but I feel it will help Americans understand why things got better.

 

2) Remove the financial incentives for law enforcement to make drug arrests. This will change the way law enforcement deals with drugs. Instead of looking for people to arrest for drug offences; they will arrest people when their drug abuse is actually causing some one a problem.

 

3) Change the focus of trying to scare people away from drugs with harsh punishments for using them (this approach simply does not work). Instead they should be sent to a rehabilitation center where they can be treated and receive help to get off drugs. Also, there should be no crime added to their criminal record IF they cooperate with their rehabilitation. 

 

4) Simply legalize weed. It's basically harmless; heck, junk food is a bigger risk to society. Keeping this one illegal is a bigger problem then the drug itself by a lot.

 

That would pretty much do it.

 

Without the financial incentives arrest people for no good reason police won't be scouring black neighborhoods looking for black people who are easily convicted. Instead; they'll only show up when there's actually a problem. This will do wonders in mending the relationship between law enforcement and the black community. Cops won't be seen as predators looking to arrest them with any excuse they can muster, but friends who keep the peace.

 

With the focus on treatment; black kids who are arrested won't come out a hardened criminal, but rather a rehabilitated citizen; heck his/her family will probably be grateful for the assistance helping their family member readjust to society. Also, arrests will be easier since the cops sending you to rehab isn't as scary as cop letting you get raped in prison; only for you to come out branded for life as a criminal. 

 

Legalizing weed would just be good economics, and a good PR move.

[Gfted1]

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Taco Bell drones? I suppose the rioters would destroy the plumbing though.

[Malcador]

There are many ways to end the drug war; here is what I feel is the most realistic:

 

1) Officially declare the campaign over. This won't do much practically speaking, but I feel it will help Americans understand why things got better.

 

2) Remove the financial incentives for law enforcement to make drug arrests. This will change the way law enforcement deals with drugs. Instead of looking for people to arrest for drug offences; they will arrest people when their drug abuse is actually causing some one a problem.

 

3) Change the focus of trying to scare people away from drugs with harsh punishments for using them (this approach simply does not work). Instead they should be sent to a rehabilitation center where they can be treated and receive help to get off drugs. Also, there should be no crime added to their criminal record IF they cooperate with their rehabilitation. 

 

4) Simply legalize weed. It's basically harmless; heck, junk food is a bigger risk to society. Keeping this one illegal is a bigger problem then the drug itself by a lot.

 

That would pretty much do it.

 

Without the financial incentives arrest people for no good reason police won't be scouring black neighborhoods looking for black people who are easily convicted. Instead; they'll only show up when there's actually a problem. This will do wonders in mending the relationship between law enforcement and the black community. Cops won't be seen as predators looking to arrest them with any excuse they can muster, but friends who keep the peace.

 

With the focus on treatment; black kids who are arrested won't come out a hardened criminal, but rather a rehabilitated citizen; heck his/her family will probably be grateful for the assistance helping their family member readjust to society. Also, arrests will be easier since the cops sending you to rehab isn't as scary as cop letting you get raped in prison; only for you to come out branded for life as a criminal. 

 

Legalizing weed would just be good economics, and a good PR move.

Ah I see, seems reasonable. But if cops are rounding you up for rehab, they'll still have to prowl through the community for users which will be seen just as bad as they're going to take you to some place ignoring your will, so arrests will still be as difficult as they would be otherwise.

[Namutree]

 

Ah I see, seems reasonable. But if cops are rounding you up for rehab, they'll still have to prowl through the community for users which will be seen just as bad as they're going to take you to some place ignoring your will, so arrests will still be as difficult as they would be otherwise.

 

Not quite. See, by taking away the financial motives to arrest people; cops will only arrest them when they are causing some kind of disturbance. Let me give you an example:

 

Let's say there are 2 Americas. One with the Drug War, and one without.

 

Drug War America: A cop sees a black guy driving a car. The officer pulls over the driver hoping to find drugs in the car. If he does; he'll be rewarded since his department will receive a budget increase from the federal government due to the drug war. Once he looks in the vehicle the officer doesn't see any drugs; so he decides he wants to do an illegal search hoping to uncover some drugs. The officer knows that many black people can't afford proper legal defense; thus he can ignore the need for probable cause. After a thorough (though illegal) search; the cop finds a bit of weed under a car seat.

 

The black guy goes to jail since his public defender didn't bother mentioning that evidence found in an illegal search should be dismissed. After all, public defenders don't actually care about their clients and just take a plea bargain since it's easier. The black guy is given a harsh sentence and his life is ruined for no good reason. Afterwords, the cop goes into black neighborhoods all the time looking for more people to arrest. He knows convicting black people is easy, and he is rewarded every time he does it. The black people begin to hate the police, and before you know it a cycle of violence is created.

 

No Drug War America: The cop sees a black guy driving a car. The black guy isn't causing a problem so he is ignored; why bother searching his car for drugs? He isn't hurting anyone, and it's not like the cop gains anything for arresting him since the Drug War is over. The black guy goes on to live a good life, pays his taxes, and even cooperates with authorities when a robbery takes place in his neighborhood. I mean, why not? The police are only there to help. It's not like they'll ruin your life for no good reason.

 

EDIT: My point being that blacks won't be rounded up for rehab. The cops have no incentive to arrest them at all. The only way they'll get involved in a drug case; is if the drug user is causing some form of problem. Hint: Most drug users don't. Especially people on lesser drugs.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Namutree

[Drowsy Emperor]

I believe the cop in this situation failed to react properly and helped the situation escalate due to panic. I believe him when he said that there was a physical altercation and I suspect he panicked because he knew he was weaker and reached for his gun. I say panicked because its hard to believe that Brown intended to kill him in the first place, or that happening due to a fistfight. The moment he reached for his gun everything went south because a deadly weapon was introduced in what was already an irrational and explosive situation, with Brown likely believing that he was going to be shot unless he wrestled the gun away from the officer. 

 

Make no mistake, in this same situation, a civilian would have been facing manslaughter charges. If you attack me with fists and I pull out a knife and stab you or a gun and shoot you, I escalated the situation and I'm going to jail. The law demands that the use of force in self defense be proportional as much as possible.

This should apply to cops as well while recognizing the specifics of this situation and the multitude of things the cop (and Brown) did wrong the chief of which is giving in under pressure, which he's supposed to be better at than the people he's protecting (and arresting).

[Malcador]

Not quite. See, by taking away the financial motives to arrest people; cops will only arrest them when they are causing some kind of disturbance. Let me give you an example:

 

Let's say there are 2 Americas. One with the Drug War, and one without.

 

Drug War America: A cop sees a black guy driving a car. The officer pulls over the driver hoping to find drugs in the car. If he does; he'll be rewarded since his department will receive a budget increase from the federal government due to the drug war. Once he looks in the vehicle the officer doesn't see any drugs; so he decides he wants to do an illegal search hoping to uncover some drugs. The officer knows that many black people can't afford proper legal defense; thus he can ignore the need for probable cause. After a thorough (though illegal) search; the cop finds a bit of weed under a car seat.

 

The black guy goes to jail since his public defender didn't bother mentioning that evidence found in an illegal search should be dismissed. After all, public defenders don't actually care about their clients and just take a plea bargain since it's easier. The black guy is given a harsh sentence and his life is ruined for no good reason. Afterwords, the cop goes into black neighborhoods all the time looking for more people to arrest. He knows convicting black people is easy, and he is rewarded every time he does it. The black people begin to hate the police, and before you know it a cycle of violence is created.

 

No Drug War America: The cop sees a black guy driving a car. The black guy isn't causing a problem so he is ignored; why bother searching his car for drugs? He isn't hurting anyone, and it's not like the cop gains anything for arresting him since the Drug War is over. The black guy goes on to live a good life, pays his taxes, and even cooperates with authorities when a robbery takes place in his neighborhood. I mean, why not? The police are only there to help. It's not like they'll ruin your life for no good reason.

 

EDIT: My point being that blacks won't be rounded up for rehab. The cops have no incentive to arrest them at all. The only way they'll get involved in a drug case; is if the drug user is causing some form of problem. Hint: Most drug users don't. Especially people on lesser drugs.

Not going to help them out that much though, some cocaine addict may not be harming others, but he'll grow up and end up as someone useless to society and to himself.

 

When cops do need to intervene in your scenario, though, it's not going to be much different than now, they're still aiming to toss you in someplace. And that guy can still be a gangbanger in the cops eyes, or a mugger or some other kind of crook once being a druggie is out of the equation, and likewise the people will still distrust the police as much as they do now.

 

Perhaps in 50 years or so that might change though if they decided to change the stance on drugs, but I am doubtful such a utopia will present itself.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

 

 Barack Obama himself, who did not attend a single minute of Grand Jury testimony and is not in a position to know the first thing about it appeals for calm on one side of his mouth while saying how fuc--d up the country is with the other. 

More importantly is that he doesn't tell them what they can do about it. He doesn't say; the relationship between the black community and law enforcement could be mended if the drug war were ended. He just says, "Well, use this anger for something positive." - Not a direct quote, but the jist of what he said. 

 

He needs to be more bold and actually name things that should change.

 

Obama is a politician. As such he is far more interested in exploiting problems than fixing them. Politically they need black community to be in a constant state of rage and mistrust. That way they can run ads that say it's all the Republicans fault during the election cycles. Demagoguery does not work when folks are reasonably happy. 

 

That's the worst part of this I think. They whip these folks into a rage and then set them loose for very cynical and selfish reasons. If all racism, real or perceived, were to end tomorrow do you know who would be out of a job? Al Sharpton & Co. Makes you think every time you see him show up at a place where he can cry "racism".

 

 

To be fair to Obama he has been  publically criticising the damage to property that the protestors have done, he has said it is criminal and doesn't help to destroy areas you live in.

 

I don't see how this exploiting the situation?

[Namutree]

 

Not going to help them out that much though, some cocaine addict may not be harming others, but he'll grow up and end up as someone useless to society and to himself. When cops do need to intervene in your scenario, though, it's not going to be much different than now, they're still aiming to toss you in someplace. And that guy can still be a gangbanger in the cops eyes, or a mugger once being a druggie is out of the equation, and likewise the people will still distrust the police as much as they do now. Perhaps in 50 years or so that might change though, but I am doubtful such a utopia will present itself.

 

I'm hardly speaking of Utopia. Even with the Drug War ended America will still have problems; just not this one. Keep in mind also that the black community doesn't dislike the police when they put a black mugger behind bars; it's when they put black people (especially young ones) behind bars for no good reason. Possessing a drug is not a good reason to ruin some one's life.

 

I also don't expect everything to be healed over night. It may take a while, but the results will be positive. 

[BruceVC]

 

So when you say the drug war ended what are you envisioning, by the way ?

 

Doubt that'd do much to fix the problem of blacks in US society.

There are many ways to end the drug war; here is what I feel is the most realistic:

 

1) Officially declare the campaign over. This won't do much practically speaking, but I feel it will help Americans understand why things got better.

 

2) Remove the financial incentives for law enforcement to make drug arrests. This will change the way law enforcement deals with drugs. Instead of looking for people to arrest for drug offences; they will arrest people when their drug abuse is actually causing some one a problem.

 

3) Change the focus of trying to scare people away from drugs with harsh punishments for using them (this approach simply does not work). Instead they should be sent to a rehabilitation center where they can be treated and receive help to get off drugs. Also, there should be no crime added to their criminal record IF they cooperate with their rehabilitation. 

 

4) Simply legalize weed. It's basically harmless; heck, junk food is a bigger risk to society. Keeping this one illegal is a bigger problem then the drug itself by a lot.

 

That would pretty much do it.

 

Without the financial incentives arrest people for no good reason police won't be scouring black neighborhoods looking for black people who are easily convicted. Instead; they'll only show up when there's actually a problem. This will do wonders in mending the relationship between law enforcement and the black community. Cops won't be seen as predators looking to arrest them with any excuse they can muster, but friends who keep the peace.

 

With the focus on treatment; black kids who are arrested won't come out a hardened criminal, but rather a rehabilitated citizen; heck his/her family will probably be grateful for the assistance helping their family member readjust to society. Also, arrests will be easier since the cops sending you to rehab isn't as scary as cop letting you get raped in prison; only for you to come out branded for life as a criminal. 

 

Legalizing weed would just be good economics, and a good PR move.

 

 

I like the logic behind this idea of the insidious nature of this drug war  but I have one major problem with how valid it is

 

I haven't seen a single commentator on any news channel say that is the reason why minorities are targeted by the police, or even that its a major contributing factor. I'm not saying you wrong but I've seen some very pro-Brown supporters and analysts and not one of them have brought this whole drug war campaign into the debate?

 

Not sure if you have some links to support this idea ?

[Namutree]

 

 

 

I like the logic behind this idea of the insidious nature of this drug war  but I have one major problem with how valid it is

 

I haven't seen a single commentator on any news channel say that is the reason why minorities are targeted by the police, or even that its a major contributing factor. I'm not saying you wrong but I've seen some very pro-Brown supporters and analysts and not one of them have brought this whole drug war campaign into the debate?

 

Not sure if you have some links to support this idea ?

 

Many of the liberals on MSNBC want to see the Drug War end. Libertarians on Fox News like John Stossel want to see the drug war end. 

 

 

This video only addresses the gang side of the Drug War, but heck I'll find more evidence later if you insist. I find looking for evidence online tedious. I know about this issue on a more personal basis. Remember, the area I live in is mostly black people, but at the same time I don't do any drugs of any kind. It gives me a decent amount of clarity on the matter.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Namutree

[213374U]

So what exactly are you saying? That most of black people in USA jails and prisons are innocent and as a result of oppressive system? Anything to back this up? Any proof that there is a higher percentage of black people being misjudged?

 

Ah, yes. The old "show me proof!" defense. I've been around long enough to know that, even if I did show you proof, you'd worm your way out of admitting that you were wrong in your assumptions. There's always a "but" — there's always something about the origins of data, there's always something about the way data is interpreted, and if everything else fails, you can always raise your standard for evidence to arbitrarily high new levels. The funny thing is that anyone who actually works with statistics knows that no certainties can be gleaned from them. Whatever, it's the main reason why I rarely post anywhere anymore — people are more interested in winning their little internet victories than actually listening and considering the merits of other viewpoints.

 

FYI, it's you who needs to offer evidence that supports your assumptions that policing and the judicial system are fair and working as advertised.

 

Have fun being "right".

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I like the logic behind this idea of the insidious nature of this drug war  but I have one major problem with how valid it is

 

I haven't seen a single commentator on any news channel say that is the reason why minorities are targeted by the police, or even that its a major contributing factor. I'm not saying you wrong but I've seen some very pro-Brown supporters and analysts and not one of them have brought this whole drug war campaign into the debate?

 

Not sure if you have some links to support this idea ?

 

Many of the liberals on MSNBC want to see the Drug War end. Libertarians on Fox News like John Stossel want to see the drug war end. 

 

 

 

This video only addresses the gang side of the Drug War, but heck I'll find more evidence later if you insist. I find looking for evidence online tedious. I know about this issue on a more personal basis. Remember, the area I live in is mostly black people, but at the same time I don't any drugs of any kind. It gives me a decent amount of clarity on the matter.

 

 

That's an excellent video and very hard to dispute the message, I like the comparison to prohibition and how it actually increased organised crime and homicide. We can see the same parallels in the modern war on drugs throughout the world

[Malcador]

I'm hardly speaking of Utopia. Even with the Drug War ended America will still have problems; just not this one. Keep in mind also that the black community doesn't dislike the police when they put a black mugger behind bars; it's when they put black people (especially young ones) behind bars for no good reason. Possessing a drug is not a good reason to ruin some one's life.

 

I also don't expect everything to be healed over night. It may take a while, but the results will be positive.

You kind of are, with your depiction of America under your idea with people seeing cops as friends who keep the peace and so on. Or at the very least, fairly optimistic. Some people are just trash, after all.

 

So it'll just fix problems for drug users, I guess it may save money over all - rehabilitation for a select few is cheaper than prosecuting and jailing them. At least in terms of direct expense.