World map

[Soraa]

This is the map we see in the Beta. Honestly, I don't see a huge difference between this and the WIP. It's less blurry, but the art hasn't really improved.

The artstyle is too simple.

 

[Sheikh]

Seems alright

[Lephys]

You are blind Lephys. I know because it takes you a developer to tell you its blurry for you to know it.

 

Negative. I didn't notice that that particular image was actually a little blurred, earlier, because you seemed to be describing the general style of the artwork being created from a blur effect, which is something else entirely. So, I first commented on that, then realized that the image, itself, was actually a bit pixel-blurred. I then noted that I had failed to note that.

 

Not sure how that makes me blind.

[Osvir]

I like the Map (both graphically/artistically, I think it is pretty) traveling is easy, no random encounters yet, but I still think it'd be awesome with an expanded World Map travel system with random events taking place on the map dynamically (And the Survival Skill could affect how far you see or similar). It has all the old-school feels, and is simple and functional. It works.

I guess something I'm thinking about would be:
- Dead State World Map Traveling (You can walk, ride, or drive, with a high Survival skill you can choose to avoid some random encounters, or engage them)
... combined with...
- NEO Scavenger Survival Traveling (You have to scavenge supplies as you travel, over a hex-based field, craft, forage, survive, fight, hide, sterilize water, protect yourself from airborne disease, warmth, hunger, etc. etc.). It's pretty hardcore.
... in a high-fantasy world...
- Pillars of Eternity Setting :D

[Sheikh]

Negative. I didn't notice that that particular image was actually a little blurred, earlier, because you seemed to be describing the general style of the artwork being created from a blur effect, which is something else entirely. So, I first commented on that, then realized that the image, itself, was actually a bit pixel-blurred. I then noted that I had failed to note that.

Not sure how that makes me blind.

 

Ookay sorry about that, another misunderstanding on my part.

[Sheikh]

it looks kinda washed out (artstyle looks very cheap)

Thats what I thought was a reference to the blurriness, but I understand now it wasnt. The artsyle is indeed cheap.The background would need alot, lot more detail. As for detail I like the following maps as inspiration:

 

 

Smooth and detailed:

 

Not smooth and detailed: (even better IMO)

 

 

The map is very green with some miniature area statue placed on top. 

Not sure what the green means by itself, but the whole point is probably that the "area statue" (aka the locations) placed on top looks unnatural because the locations and the background look very different in style, so they dont naturally fit together very well.

 

I agree with this criticism, but I think the map still fills its purpose of being a functional way to grasp the piece of land that is the gameworld. So while it could be better, its alright.

 

It would be better if the whole thing was simple painted by the same artist, but the locations were still made subtly distinct in some way and brought forth, made slightly bigger, exaggerated compared to the rest of the map. This is sort of what I mean:

 

 

 

 

 

I also think the map is very important because it gives you an overview of everything that has happened, is happening and will happen in the game, ever, in a certain way. So if the map is well done it means you can be at peace because you can feel you are in control of the game!

[Lephys]

The artsyle is indeed cheap.The background would need alot, lot more detail.

If I may ask... why exactly? Or... in what capacity is that map image inadequate? I mean, if you just like higher detail images better -- you find them more pleasing to your eye -- then that's fine. I'm just wondering if there's some other reason attributable to game design necessity.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Lephys

[Sheikh]

Its cheap because the artist that painted it did not spend extra effort to work out every detail and bring it all together, he just sketched some pretty random scenery.

[Lephys]

I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from that is "I'd prefer it to be detailed." Nothing more.

 

Plenty of art isn't photorealistic, and is still art. If uber-detailed was the only type of art in existence, the world would be a pretty boring place. Just noms for thought.

[ManifestedISO]

 

 If uber-detailed was the only type of art in existence, the world would be a pretty boring place.

 

Every impressionist ever, just said thank you, or, at least, the ones with two ears did. 

[Sheikh]

I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from that is "I'd prefer it to be detailed." 

It takes more effort to make a detailed map and therefore more money for the artist.

[Lephys]

 

I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from that is "I'd prefer it to be detailed."

It takes more effort to make a detailed map and therefore more money for the artist.

 

I don't follow. Are you merely stating a fact, or are you suggesting that the more effort spent on any one thing -- regardless of any kind of cost-benefit ratio -- the better? As in, if they spent 700 hours and $400,000 on the world map image, that would be the best option?

 

My question was simply "What constitutes that image's need for more detail?". In other words, can you not tell what's what on that map? Or maybe there's another reason? When picking locations to which to travel on a macro image of the world, you have trouble doing so without being able to count the stones in the icon representing a castle or keep without zooming in?

 

I'm just not gathering why less detail (not zero detail, but less) is inherently bad, or why more is always good.

[Sheikh]

It looks ****. It still looks washed out and the level of detail is basically nonexistant on the painted background. Juts some soggy looking dark green stuff on a light green background with a few blue things inbetween. Basically.

 

With more detail there would be something to look at, instead theres something inbetween a painting and a children having splattered some colors on a paper with his fingers. You know what I mean?

 

1. It doesnt look like a forest on that painting, it looks like a dark green mass

2. Those things dont look like rivers, they look like blue lines.

3. The background doesnt look like grass, it looks like light green [light green...nothing]

 

If they spent 700 hours and 400 000 dollars on map it would be far better for sure.

 

But for now I recommend this map to Obsidian because at least it doesnt try to be something it clearly isnt - art. This sincerely looks better as a result of the lack of confusion over wtf am I looking at? And I mean it, I would prefer this one.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sheikh

[Lychnidos]

The blue lines are rivers?!

[Lephys]

1. It doesnt look like a forest on that painting, it looks like a dark green mass

2. Those things dont look like rivers, they look like blue lines.

3. The background doesnt look like grass, it looks like light green [light green...nothing]

So, lemme get this straight...

 

You really can't tell that that green mass is supposed to be a forest, or those blue lines are supposed to be rivers, or the background is supposed to be grass? You're just so lucky that you guessed all three of those correctly without having any idea what they were supposed to be based on your eyes' visual input?

 

Also... have you ever seen an aerial photograph of the earth? I'm just curious.

 

Also also... you're saying that this image is bad because it lacks detail, but that less-detailed image is better?

[Sheikh]

 

1. It doesnt look like a forest on that painting, it looks like a dark green mass

2. Those things dont look like rivers, they look like blue lines.

3. The background doesnt look like grass, it looks like light green [light green...nothing]

So, lemme get this straight...

 

You really can't tell that that green mass is supposed to be a forest, or those blue lines are supposed to be rivers, or the background is supposed to be grass? You're just so lucky that you guessed all three of those correctly without having any idea what they were supposed to be based on your eyes' visual input?

 

Also... have you ever seen an aerial photograph of the earth? I'm just curious.

 

Also also... you're saying that this image is bad because it lacks detail, but that less-detailed image is better?

 

Dont care what they are supposed to be, I am not a mind reader. I want them to look good and beautiful and enjoyable. What they represent makes no difference.

 

Yes

 

Yes because it is not something I would feel the need to try interpret.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sheikh

[Lephys]

Dont care what they are supposed to be, I am not a mind reader. I want them to look good and beautiful and enjoyable. What they represent makes no difference.

So, it's a problem that those "blue lines" don't look like rivers, but not because they're supposed to look like rivers? They could look like giant space ducks as long as they were detailed instead of sketchy?

[Sheikh]

No. They could look like giant space ducks as long as they looked good and while the map still was able to serve its function as well.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sheikh

[Lephys]

No. They could look like giant space ducks as long as they looked good and while the map still was able to serve its function as well.

What is the map's function? It can depict expertly detailed giant space ducks in place of rivers, and still serve its function?

[Sheikh]

Yes

 

To visualize the game world indirectly. That indirectly is why it could work.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Sheikh

[PillarsofEternity]

I'd like a map where you can see every major (and probably minor) location mapped out from the outset, even if you can't travel everywhere straight away. Might ruin the feeling of discovery, but let's get real, most of these civilizations in games are advanced enough to have mastered cartography prior to your arrival. These maps could then, presumably, be sold to anyone who wants them. Moreover one would imagine that many people, especially those entrusted with saving the world, might have some knowledge of their local region beyond a blank map they can fill out as they go along. 

[rjshae]

I'd like a map where you can see every major (and probably minor) location mapped out from the outset, even if you can't travel everywhere straight away. Might ruin the feeling of discovery, but let's get real, most of these civilizations in games are advanced enough to have mastered cartography prior to your arrival. These maps could then, presumably, be sold to anyone who wants them. Moreover one would imagine that many people, especially those entrusted with saving the world, might have some knowledge of their local region beyond a blank map they can fill out as they go along. 

 

Does this world have a printing press? I don't believe so. Have they mastered surveying techniques? Probably not. You're talking hand drawn maps created by a scholar collecting various traveler's tales and adding various creative embellishments. You'll be lucky if a map is even close to accurate. The best maps will probably be of coastlines; not of interior trails and dirt roads.

[Silent Winter]

Moreover one would imagine that many people, especially those entrusted with saving the world, might have some knowledge of their local region

you're not a local in the game - you're newly arrived.

I don't want a full map from the outset - but I wouldn't be opposed to having one for sale (see below)

 

Does this world have a printing press? I don't believe so. Have they mastered surveying techniques? Probably not. You're talking hand drawn maps created by a scholar collecting various traveler's tales and adding various creative embellishments. You'll be lucky if a map is even close to accurate. The best maps will probably be of coastlines; not of interior trails and dirt roads.

Would be fun if you could buy a map that may have some things right but others wrong - follow the map to 'coastal beauty spot' only to find you've walked into an ogre-camp

[PillarsofEternity]

 

I'd like a map where you can see every major (and probably minor) location mapped out from the outset, even if you can't travel everywhere straight away. Might ruin the feeling of discovery, but let's get real, most of these civilizations in games are advanced enough to have mastered cartography prior to your arrival. These maps could then, presumably, be sold to anyone who wants them. Moreover one would imagine that many people, especially those entrusted with saving the world, might have some knowledge of their local region beyond a blank map they can fill out as they go along. 

 

Does this world have a printing press? I don't believe so. Have they mastered surveying techniques? Probably not. You're talking hand drawn maps created by a scholar collecting various traveler's tales and adding various creative embellishments. You'll be lucky if a map is even close to accurate. The best maps will probably be of coastlines; not of interior trails and dirt roads.

 

 

I wasn't actually referring to an accurate map, with roads or trails. Even the location of the landmarks doesn't need to be accurate, just ballpark. You grossly underestimate how quickly cartography produces something worthwhile. If there is any trade between these cities, chances are traders know the routes inside out. You are making it out to be this complicated thing, when it is anything but. 

 

More to the point, I'm simply talking about a map with landmarks, such as cities/towns. In a game that is not open world (ala Baldur's Gate), in which you click on places on a map to travel between them, what I'm proposing isn't a stretch. You're free to dislike the idea, but suggesting that it tugs at plausibility is simply ridiculous. 

 

It would take no effort at all for someone to create a basic map of where major locations are in relation to eachother, particularly as one assumes that your band of adventurers is not the first to embark on treks between landmarks. The flow of people between places, and the aforementioned trade, basically guarantees that within a short amount of time of mastering writing/calligraphy, cartography would be simple work - however basic the maps are.

 

 

 

Moreover one would imagine that many people, especially those entrusted with saving the world, might have some knowledge of their local region

you're not a local in the game - you're newly arrived.

I don't want a full map from the outset - but I wouldn't be opposed to having one for sale (see below)

 

 

So because you're a new arrival, it means everyone in the game world (including companions who are not new) are also completely ignorant of the world they inhabit? And they need you, with your exploration prowess, to show them the way around? Got it. Or, maybe you could pop into the local tavern and buy a basic map? 

 

The game already provides you with a blank map. How did they manage to give you that ability? You've outlined the world somehow at the start of the game, but you just don't know what inhabits that world? That's quite the skill. 

 

That's of course far more believable. The landmass, along with the coastline, is fully mapped out, but the important things in between that people in the game world find useful is left to the imagination. 

 

Whichever way you look at it, it is very conceivable that any fantasy world - whose inhabitants can read/write and where traders are present - would very quickly come up with ways to present that information in map form, regardless of how detailed or accurate it is. 

 

I'm not for one second questioning your view on the idea; it's perfectly fine that you dislike it. I am however incredulous that both of you doubt such a thing would be possible. When all is said and done, maps are blank in games because they give you the sense of achievement in exploration when they are uncovered. From a gaming perspective, it makes sense. Within that game world though, it is simply crazy that none of these fantasy game worlds (where far more advanced and crazier things are readily available), have no map with major locations available to buy or find prior to the arrival of the Chosen One. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by PillarsofEternity

[Silent Winter]

So because you're a new arrival, it means everyone in the game world (including companions who are not new) are also completely ignorant of the world they inhabit?

No, just your character, whom you're playing.

 

And they need you, with your exploration prowess, to show them the way around? Got it. Or, maybe you could pop into the local tavern and buy a basic map?

No - but you need to be told where things are (hence "I'll mark it on your map" type phrases) -  I also suggested you could buy a map (with or without accuracy).

 

The game already provides you with a blank map. How did they manage to give you that ability? You've outlined the world somehow at the start of the game, but you just don't know what inhabits that world? That's quite the skill. 

No - that's just a technical limitation in the game - Obsidian program one map-screen and then just add locations to it as you play.  I don't think it's meant to represent you having a detailed but locationless map of the area.

 

I'm not for one second questioning your view on the idea; it's perfectly fine that you dislike it. I am however incredulous that both of you doubt such a thing would be possible.

I doubted no such thing - in fact I said:

 

I don't want a full map from the outset - but I wouldn't be opposed to having one for sale

indicating that such maps would be available (I later added it would be fun if the map had embellishments that turned out to be inaccurate but my example was not a major city)

 

Whether maps would be available to buy in any given village would depend on local demand for such things.  Sure, the king and generals would have maps, but the farmer wouldn't need one and the merchants would know their routes.   A new merchant might hire someone to make one but that doesn't mean a cartographer in a small village would build up a stock of them.

 

I prefer asking people in-game and having them tell you where something is - (then your map gets marked) or being able to explore to map-edges a la BG1 to find new places yourself (though I believe PoE is more like BG2 in regard