Playing DA:I Cleared My Doubts About Engagement Mechanics In PoE

[Gairnulf]

Thank you Lephys but i'm only mildly interested in the PC port, not at all in consoles i'm afraid. It would be interesting to learn how Lenala (spelling) glued her head back on, when I decapitated her after i'd corrupted the Sacred Ashes, which she apparently took umbrage about.

Gaider glued it with his... eh, what's the point Apparently he was asked this question on the forums or in an interview and weaseled an answer about how the beheading was an in-game animation while for lore purposes she was stabbed and left for dead.

 

Not that this makes any more sense, but what do you expect from a lead writer lazy enough to approve a story where the main suspect in assassinating the pope is collectively dragged by his apprehendors to the position of a leader of the efforts to restore order after the assassination with the main argument for this being the same that makes him/her suspicious in the first place (the mark on the hand)

[Captain Shrek]

Dragon Age has no consistent lore anymore. So that doesn't matter. With each DLC and a new game they break more of it. 

[Gairnulf]

Dragon Age has no consistent lore anymore. So that doesn't matter. With each DLC and a new game they break more of it. 

You're right.

 

Back on topic, I tested Sensuki's "no engagement" mod with Medreth's gang today, and kiting was totally possible. I had my main character run in circles with one of the coweled men, while my fighter was beating Medreth. Unfortunately I couldn't finish the battle, because at some point they all became friendly (green circles) so my healing magic that the priest used on the fighter accidentally healed them too

 

Sensuki is right that with the current AI, unless the player kites, enemies behave the same, but I'm sure the current AI is to see much improvements. I'm not sure if Sensuki's point isn't that engagement is meant as an easy way to avoid, or mostly avoid coding tactical movement for enemies (which didn't exist in the IE games either, as he also points out), but if that's what he means, I'm not sure if I can agree with his suspicion, because PoE features a number of ways to break engagement and I doubt the team doesn't plan to implement the use of any of these by the AI.

[Sensuki]

There are several ways to break engagement, however most of the time those ways include investing in a character advancement ability or talent to do it specifically. This makes it totally not worth doing, because you can simply just not move and play around that instead (it removes moving as a tactically viable option), and furthermore - most of those abilities are laughably bad and have no real other tactical value. The Barbarian Wild Sprint gives you -20 to Deflection - that is asking for a Critical Hit on Disengagement .

The other thing is that you can kite enemies with Melee Engagement, the same as without it, you just do it before being engaged / avoid being engaged. I have videos of this. The only difference is that with it you shouldn't move after you've entered combat, and without it, it plays like the IE games.  

 

 

This is with Melee Engagement ^, see look, I'm kiting - exactly the same as without it.

 

Since Melee Engagement overrides all other AI targeting clauses for melee enemies, it removes the need for smarter AI. They will probably just add a very simple target reacquisition system to the closest nearby enemy like the BG games and call it a day, unfortunately.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

Yea, I would rather have better AI than artificial gameplay elements like engagement.

[Gairnulf]

Since Melee Engagement overrides all other AI targeting clauses for melee enemies, it removes the need for smarter AI. They will probably just add a very simple target reacquisition system to the closest nearby enemy like the BG games and call it a day, unfortunately.

I see. That would be a real bummer if they leave the AI at IE games' level.

[Karkarov]

 

Thank you Lephys but i'm only mildly interested in the PC port, not at all in consoles i'm afraid. It would be interesting to learn how Lenala (spelling) glued her head back on, when I decapitated her after i'd corrupted the Sacred Ashes, which she apparently took umbrage about.

Gaider glued it with his... eh, what's the point Apparently he was asked this question on the forums or in an interview and weaseled an answer about how the beheading was an in-game animation while for lore purposes she was stabbed and left for dead.

 

Not that this makes any more sense, but what do you expect from a lead writer lazy enough to approve a story where the main suspect in assassinating the pope is collectively dragged by his apprehendors to the position of a leader of the efforts to restore order after the assassination with the main argument for this being the same that makes him/her suspicious in the first place (the mark on the hand)

That's true Leliana's thing is weird.  It is pretty much the only case of that happening anywhere in the lore too.  The real question is why Nonek even sided with a bunch of cave dwelling murder mad men in the first place ;p.  Also it is explained pretty obviously why they don't suspect you anymore after the introduction level so I am not seeing your point.  Well that and that while your "captors" have let you off at least one major faction hasn't.  That said I get it, you hate Bioware, you will get over it.

 

Personally I am loving DA:I so far.  Is it a 10/10, uh no.  Not very many games are.  But it is easily a 8/10 so far.

 

Also to answer your question Lephys, no, I don't have friendly fire on.  If I did I am sure it would work that way.  I am already playing on Nightmare, trust me, it is hard enough as it is.  Normal encounters can wipe me if I play poorly, not even kidding.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Karkarov

[Gairnulf]

I'm indifferent towards Bioware. They are a software company, I'm not being forced to marry them. If you are loving DA:I, this is good to know, I have nothing against that.

[Sensuki]

I see. That would be a real bummer if they leave the AI at IE games' level.

Less than it actually.

[Nonek]

Hate? Rather strong word chaps, more apathetic really. Lelilanis decapitation and ressurection was one of the only points of interest I had left in the franchise, from a merely curious point of view, along with wondering whether the Blond Templar lady from DA2 reached escape velocity when she zoomed off into space in the final battle? I have to admit I nope'd, pressed ctrl-alt-del at that point and then pressed the awesome (uninstall) button, but was left wondering whether she made it into orbit.

 

As for other peoples enjoyment (or not) of the game, I really couldn't give two figs, I was merely curious about the PC controls being so poorly implemented, as this was once a strength of Bioware.

[Seari]

Personally I am loving DA:I so far.  Is it a 10/10, uh no.  Not very many games are.  But it is easily a 8/10 so far.

 

You must be a special kind of person to like singleplayer MMOs.

[NegativeEdge]

All the complaining about DAIs m/kb set up just sorts the boys from the men to be honest, if you can learn to use NWN2s camera and UI then this is no problem. It works really well on m/kb although the tac cam is mostly uneccessary but useful in certain circumstances.

Overall the combat is pretty good on Nightmare, better than PEs for sure.

Edited November 20, 2014 by NegativeEdge

[Gairnulf]

All the complaining about DAIs m/kb set up just sorts the boys from the men to be honest, if you can learn to use NWN2s camera and UI then this is no problem. It works really well on m/kb although the tac cam is mostly uneccessary but useful in certain circumstances.

Overall the combat is pretty good on Nightmare, better than PEs for sure.

The controls are one of the main reasons I never finished either NWN or NWN2. That, and the bland story/characters, when I had set myself up for something like Baldur's Gate in 3D.

[Ink Blot]

Yeah well DA:I combat is very fast paced if you don't pause a lot and on harder difficulties the enemies are heinously smart and brutal.  Like as in enemy mage sees your big ass two hand melee killer charging.... so they cast an ice trap mine centered on themselves (no friendly fire) so for your melee is nullified unless it wants to eat a freezing trap.  Also mobs are more than happy to drop aggro on your tank and go after your DPS   I am playing on nightmare and I will be honest, the people who complain that is it "too easy" have self inflicted problems.  Trust me on nightmare "easy" is not a word I would use to described DA:I combat.  Brutal with very little room for error is probably how I would describe DA:I on nightmare.

 

That said, yes, the default mouse and keyboard controls are bad.  Mostly only because they got rid of mouse steering.

 

Don't worry though Lephys, the people on this forum hate Bioware.  DA:I could be the best RPG ever made and most of them would still say it was crap.

Hmmm, this is encouraging. I'm going to have to wait for further reviews, but this sounds very much improved over DA2 (and DA:O for that matter).

[NegativeEdge]

Yeah Obsidian definitely were lucky that their reputation for good writing and characterisation survived NWN2s bundle of 90 s counter-culture teenage rebellion references called Qara (actually had to google her name there she's so forgettable) and the evil ranger with black eyeliner along with the single most boring first act in any game ever.

 

It's supposed to have a really bad ending too but I've never been able to finish the game.

[Gairnulf]

Yeah Obsidian definitely were lucky that their reputation for good writing and characterisation survived NWN2s bundle of 90 s counter-culture teenage rebellion references called Qara (actually had to google her name there she's so forgettable) and the evil ranger with black eyeliner along with the single most boring first act in any game ever. It's supposed to have a really bad ending too but I've never been able to finish the game.

I use my girlfriend as a test subject. She hadn't played RPGs or been exposed to computer games in general before a year or so, but she likes reading fantasy. She immediately dissected the DA setting and said it borrows from at least three different fantasy authors by the time I had explained her the premise of DAO. Upon playing the Beta (the v333 beta, mind you) she declared PoE has good writing and sucks you in, but by the time it took her to finish the prologue she thought DA:I was dull, although she likes roaming the Hinterlands for now. BTW, I like the tone of PoE's writing myself, I think it sounds more mature and down to Earth than BG's for example.

 

(I don't aim to get the first post in every new page, it's just a coincidence )

Edited November 20, 2014 by Gairnulf

[IndiraLightfoot]

I've spent the whole day playing DA:I on Nightmare, and I'd just like to underline everything Karkarov says. It's a very, very good CRPG, and this in part includes the combat - if you dial it up to Nightmare, at least. Despite it being the hardest level, I don't need to pause very often - but rather mostly for giving starting orders at the beginning, and at certain events during the encounters - obviously boss fights and tougher fights need much more pausing. Overall, it's giving me a weird mix of DA:O, NWN2 and action games like Ass: Creed and Dishonored (games that I adore, the IE games still being true gems, of course), and I actually love what I've seen so far. Sure, there are fetch quests (but let's be honest here: Having played BG1 and IWD1 recently, and also NWN2 - there are plenty of those in these games too. The story and the characters so far have been very interesting and well-written.

 

TL;DR Combat (at Nightmare level) is much better in DA:I than PoE atm.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gairnulf]

I'm playing on Hard, and I would try Nightmare but I'm afraid I'd lose the Hard achievement for stepping difficulty up, like I would from stepping it down.

[Sensuki]

TL;DR Combat (at Nightmare level) is much better in DA:I than PoE atm.

Even though I hated DA:O and hated the combat in the games you described, I wouldn't be too surprised, really.

[Nonek]

So only one difficulty level is enjoyable in DAI, pretty damning isn't it?

[Sensuki]

There are people who like boring combat.

[IndiraLightfoot]

If you want the combat to be decently tactical and fun enough in DA:I, I'd warmly recommend Hard or Nightmare. Anything else would be you merely clicking your way through the great saga, and that would be a great shame (I'm assuming here that you are a seasoned CRPGer). I've watched a number of starting vids (tutorial/early), and it's on this I base this conclusion.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

I have no intention of buying or playing it, but I thought I'd just chime in

[tdphys]

So the most important summary of this thread to me is:   

 

It's the AI that makes the combat tactics interesting/challenging, non-degenerate (kiting etc)

 

So my question is,  does engagement assist in creating better AI's by giving some extra tactical data and combat structure for a programmer to work with.

 

for example:

I think it would be pretty easy to write an AI to avoid Sensuki's engagement kiting...  (  If engaged, only attack adjacent and/or engaged enemies etc..)

 

Is it hard to write an AI to avoid kiting in general?

[Sensuki]

I'm not an AI Programmer (or a good programmer in general, i suck) but there's no way to prevent kiting.

 

Kiters gonna kite, know what I'm sayin?

Edited November 20, 2014 by Sensuki