A Proposition for Improving Combat Interface Feedback

[Sensuki]

I don't think recovery timers are vital, but they make combat more convenient to follow, for me at least. They could do away with the health meters above characters, but then we would just have to hover over a character's head every time we want to get an idea of how much health they have

That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

[Karkarov]

That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

Be realistic Sensuki, characters are way too small on screen to get the kind of depth at a glance you are talking about purely from animations.  Especially considering all the crap going on during combat as is.

 

 

 

2: Just done what they wanted to do and made the game they wanted to make and if it turned out looking fairly different from the IE games?  Oh well, people will get over it.

Entire discussion here is based on the fact, that what they wanted to make is not nearly as good as what IE games presented...

No, what happened is they tried to meet the IE Diehards in the middle and sacrificed their vision to nostalgia goggles.

[Sensuki]

Sorry but that's bull****, you can always tell in BG1 and BG2 when a character is performing or not based on their current stance and animation.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Here's an example

 

Which characters are currently performing an attack and which ones are completely idle ?

 

BG2:

 

 

PE:

 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

Imo camera angle has to change.

[Karkarov]

Here's an example

 

Which characters are currently performing an attack and which ones are completely idle ?

Looks like the guy with the two handed axe and the poofy shirts in BG.  In Eternity it looks like the Guard, BB Priest, and whoever is stabbing the Guard with a stick.  Bearing in mind both are static pictures, not live, BG had much simpler graphics and likely fewer animations, no insane effects are going off like fireballs, and your PE screenshot is crazy zoomed in.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

In the BG2 one The Priest, Monk and Sarevok (guy with Halberd) are making attacks. You can clearly tell that my Kensai chick is not because her weapons are down.

 

In the PE one only the guard and the Orlan are making attacks. BB Priest and BB Fighter are not making attacks, but it looks like BB Priest is doesn't it ?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

I can hardly see selection circles in this PoE screen. Bleh.

[Karkarov]

In the BG2 one The Priest, Monk and Sarevok (guy with Halberd) are making attacks. You can clearly tell that my Kensai chick is not because her weapons are down.

 

In the PE one only the guard and the Orlan are making attacks. BB Priest and BB Fighter are not making attacks, but it looks like BB Priest is doesn't it ?

But it doesn't matter Sensuki!  Cause in game in real time I would have noticed like 2 seconds went by without the priest doing something so I would have paused and issued a command.  Cause I literally do pause like every 3 seconds in Eternity cause crap happens too fast.

[Sensuki]

Yes it does, and it will matter more if combat becomes a bit slower. Then there's the people using the slow function, and people playing without Combat HUDs to consider (people playing without Combat HUDs is the primary reason why I've been advocating it, because I want to be able to disable them and be able to play the game without suffering from lack of feedback).

[prodigydancer]

I agree that characters who aren't attacking anything should have actual idle animation. It makes perfect sense and should be very easy to implement (since it's the same idle animation you have out of combat).

 

There's no reason for Obsidian to ignore this suggestions because it's a visible improvement at minimal cost.

Edited November 2, 2014 by prodigydancer

[archangel979]

I am just playing IWD:EE and I don't really watch character animations to see who is doing what. I just watch icon on portraits to see if people are doing anything or idling. 

I don't even care much for selection circles changing shape to show me who they are attacking as I know who I clicked on to attack and I know the game is not going to cancel that order. 

Also the game being slow enough helps and camera is good. No crazy FX also makes a huge difference.

Edited November 2, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

I haven't played Icewind Dale:EE but in Icewind Dale there are no animations like in BG1/2 - Black Isle removed them and all characters look idle when not doing anything in combat. Not sure if IWD:EE is like that also.

[Gairnulf]

 

I don't think recovery timers are vital, but they make combat more convenient to follow, for me at least. They could do away with the health meters above characters, but then we would just have to hover over a character's head every time we want to get an idea of how much health they have

That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

 

 

I thought of this as a possible counter argument as well. I guess it's a matter of preference - receiving feedback only from animations should take a little (hopefully very little) time for getting used to, but on the other hand it will concentrate the player's eyes on the characters. With the indicators it's the opposite, or at least it should be - they are a bit misleading right now, because they are of equal length but of different speed with which they shorten.

[prodigydancer]

I haven't played Icewind Dale:EE but in Icewind Dale there are no animations like in BG1/2 - Black Isle removed them and all characters look idle when not doing anything in combat. Not sure if IWD:EE is like that also.

IWD EE uses the same version of Infinity Engine as other enhanced editions so combat animations are there:

 

Edited November 2, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

Right well anyway, I did a full playthrough of IWD recently and I didn't need actions over portraits

 

I won't play the Enhanced Editions because I don't find them to be "Enhanced" at all. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Gairnulf]

I agree that if we didn't need halos over characters in the old games, we can get by without them now just as well. But I'm not completely convinced they aren't an improvement.

[Quantics]

Imo camera angle has to change.

 

Again?

 

YES it was perhaps a bad design decision to start with, but for reasons stated 100s of times in other threads, it's not one that can be reversed this far into development.  

 

You can get back to lobbying for lower camera angles when the expansion/sequel is announced.

[Sensuki]

I agree that if we didn't need halos over characters in the old games, we can get by without them now just as well. But I'm not completely convinced they aren't an improvement.

I didn't say they weren't an improvement. I said that the lack of different animations was a bad design decision. Personally I find them superfluous but I can understand why other people like them.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Quantics]

Here's an example

 

 

+1

 

Also:

- Selection circles are too thin

- Some circles are masked by shadows

- Character silhouettes are not clearly outlined

- And what the heck is that brownish 'shadow on the ground below the female character? Is that blood? Urgh.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Quantics

[Gairnulf]

I thought they were going to add more animations for the final release, or am I wrong? I like when the animations hook into slashes, blocks and ripostes, like in DAO, NWN, but this has its own complications.

[prodigydancer]

- Selection circles are too thin

- Some circles are make by shadows

- Character silhouettes are not clearly outlined

- And what the heck is that brownish 'shadow on the ground below the female character? Is that blood? Urgh.

Selection circles are thin but they'd be visible if nothing (except character models) could interfere with them. In Sensuki's screenshot it's clearly visible that blood partially obsures selection circles. That's bad. IMO nothing, not even spell VFX, should do that.

 

Characters blending with environments too much is a known issue (I wonder if they'll be able to fix it completely). And yes, blood should be more red.

Edited November 2, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

Also:

- Selection circles are too thin

Selection circles are not too thin, they've made them thinner twice actually and they're now fine. That blood shouldn't be obscuring the circles I don't think, because it's supposed to be on the ground (under the character).

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Quantics]

Selection circles are not too thin, they've made them thinner twice actually and they're now fine. That blood shouldn't be obscuring the circles I don't think, because it's supposed to be on the ground (under the character).

 

 

Actually in your screenshot the light green and red ones are fine. The two dark green ones are too thin IMO (or too dark ).

Edited November 2, 2014 by Quantics

[Sensuki]

Remember that JPEG screenshots also distort the image, they are clearer in the video. They could possibly be a bit dark I'd have to compare them against the IE games.