Wasteland 2

[Marceror]

/Sigh. I never said that mechanical repair was a great skill for generating xp.... You know what? Screw it. It's not worth my time to reply.

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

"That still leaves you with safecracking, outdoorsman, surgeon, field medic, mechanical repair (can be used quite a bit to correct a lot of critical failures), and brute force, alarm disarm to provide non-combat xp to your other characters."

 

we responded by pointing out how crappy it were for xp and that you needed to count on fails from other skills to get value. as we noted the infrequent opportunities for repair of crit failures compounded by the fact that one needs effective greater skill in mechanics ( a largely useless skill) to make use o' the capacity to repair broken locks, seriously hinders the usefulness o' mechanics. 

 

*shrug*

 

'course somebody were missing the point it seems... 'cause we were clear responding to your initial point that mechanics "can be used quite a bit to correct a lot of critical failures,"  'cause, it can't be used more than infrequent unless somebody games the system. 

 

http://game-maps.com/W2/Wasteland-2-Arizona-Canyon-of-Titan.asp

 

is an example o' a large map. best case scenario you is hopeful for 1-2 crit fails on such a map, and there is a goodly chance that your crit fails will be on difficult locks, which would require commensurate greater skill in mechanics. doesn't look like much o' a payoff, eh?  the only way we see it as being useful as a xp generating skill (which were the point o' all o' this in the first place as you can see by scrolling up a bit) is by tanking your lock/safe skills to generate more crit fails. so yeah, you gotta take from one skill to make the other useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

Even to game the system for what will amount to a negligible amount of XP, you're really wasting good skill points.  Repair is useful for some things, although I don't think it's necessary for anything on the crit path.  The way I see it, you're probably just better off pretending that there is no incidental XP for non combat skills and building your party around doing what you want it to do as best it can.  ...Unless you're saving before each use, which ranges from time consuming to excruciating and even then I think you're probably still building the most efficient party.  You're just investing the smallest amount in a skill not to get 'impossible' checks.  Next run, I'm actually going to invest in fewer skills and get them up to snuff faster, I think.

 

EDIT: 

I just had to restore the rangers' good name because we were being framed for evil misdeeds.  Rat bastard Children.  They are on my list of three factions who must be destroyed root and branch.

 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Cantousent

[Marceror]

Over the course of my games I have seen PLENTY of critical failures, for which mechanical repair could be used to potentially correct. No gaming of the system required.

 

Still, this is not the same thing as saying mechanical repair is a great source of xp, compared to several of the other non-combat skills.  I've said several times that some are better than others for generating xp, which Gromnir conveniently seems to overlook. But, MR is a *potential* source of non-combat xp, and the intent of my original post was to list all of those without prejudice, though I accidentally left weaponsmithing off the list.

 

EDIT:

Passing thought... but your best opportunity to get xp from mechanical repair is with Jaime the Robot. I managed to keep him alive well into CA, and got a lot of mileage of MR during that time.

 

Also, for me part of the fun is figuring out how to build my team so that every single non-combat skill is represented in my team. And I have done so in all of my run-throughs (4 during the beta (2 on Supreme Jerk), and 2 during the full release (1 on Supreme Jerk). If combat was really difficult, I might rethink this, but since it isn't, optimizing for a stronger combat team actually makes the game less enjoyable, as combat becomes so trivially easy.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Marceror

[Althernai]

I might have failed a Google search check so I'll ask here... is there a way to place a marker on the map to remind one of what is there? For example, there are some safes which are currently too high difficulty for my party. Can I mark their location on the map?

[Cantousent]

If I figure out how to marker the map, I'll let you know, and if you figure out how to change the position of the character line-up, you let me know.  <.<

 

I'm not really criticizing your build, Marc.  I just contend that builds should just focus on what they do operationally rather than what they earn XP wise.  I personally think the fact that potential XP spreads impact decisions on how to build the party in any way doesn't commend the design.  This is the primary example of why I dislike incidental XP in the first place.  People can claim it doesn't make any difference to them and that it's just a way to get XP for accomplishing stuff, but it almost demands meta-gaming, even when the increased XP is marginal.  People can game the system with quests and the like, but the sheer instances of incidental XP confront the player constantly throughout the game.  The fact that it's a topic in this manner only exemplifies the effect it has on the game.  ...And figuring out how to exploit what amounts in most cases to trivial XP differences becomes a mini-game in and of itself.

 

Personally, I like Repair.  It doesn't have a ton of uses and I have rarely been able to use it to fix a critical failure, but it fits my RPG vision and it *does* have some significant advantages in key situations.  My next run, I'm thinking about dumping brute force after I replace Angela.  I can only think of one place where a weak stick of dynamite can't accomplish the same thing as brute force, but please let me know if I'm mistaken.

[Gromnir]

Over the course of my games I have seen PLENTY of critical failures, for which mechanical repair could be used to potentially correct. No gaming of the system required.

 

Still, this is not the same thing as saying mechanical repair is a great source of xp, compared to several of the other non-combat skills.  I've said several times that some are better than others for generating xp, which Gromnir conveniently seems to overlook. But, MR is a *potential* source of non-combat xp, and the intent of my original post was to list all of those without prejudice, though I accidentally left weaponsmithing off the list.

 

EDIT:

Passing thought... but your best opportunity to get xp from mechanical repair is with Jaime the Robot. I managed to keep him alive well into CA, and got a lot of mileage of MR during that time.

 

Also, for me part of the fun is figuring out how to build my team so that every single non-combat skill is represented in my team. And I have done so in all of my run-throughs (4 during the beta (2 on Supreme Jerk), and 2 during the full release (1 on Supreme Jerk). If combat was really difficult, I might rethink this, but since it isn't, optimizing for a stronger combat team actually makes the game less enjoyable, as combat becomes so trivially easy.

okie dokie. pointing out that there is other skills available to respond to Gromnir referencing that many skills is disproportionate xp generators is having a point? you observe, after we criticize you 'bout your observation that mechanics "can be used quite a bit to correct a lot of critical failures," (though you continue to hedge that by mentioning the number o' "potential" crit fails you saw during your game) only  then do you agree that mechanics ain't a great xp generator. you is getting sequence o' events and your responses jumbled or confused.  you made what amounts to a non-responsive observation. 

 

*shrug*

 

am believing you lost track o' the thread. go back and see what were being discussed, 'cause your current comments got almost zero relevance.

 

as to your feelings regarding the difficulty o' wasteland 2 combat, we have no way to respond to feelings. is no way we is gonna try and claim that combat is more or less difficult than you believe, or that the way you play is less enjoyable. we will, once again, point out that a single character with boosted charisma and intelligence is only going to be getting noticeable level disparity halfway through the game, and that a level disparity o' even 4 levels relative late in the game is only going to result in, 20 skill points, which, by late in the game is hardly impressive.  give the high yield skills to 1 charisma or low charisma rangers and that level disparity drops to 2. by level 30, we is running outta skills into which we can be finding a reason to give points anyway, so am not seeing value.  

 

oh, and robot repair is something we did for a considerable amount of time as we liked the appearance of vax, but if the goal is xp gain, the effort is asinine.  a couple random world map encounters likely yield far more xp than does mech repair robot heals 'cross 10 levels o' gameplay.  am not even going to get into the aggro bugs for animal and robot followers on certain maps such as titan canyon, or the dogmeat problem such followers frequent present, but yeah, if you wanna find some way to make mech repair less useless, go for it. is more toaster repairs than mech repair opportunities in ca, and there is only so may broken wells you can fix in az.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps and we agree with cant that the entire system wasteland 2 uses for ad hoc xp gains is poor.  

Edited November 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Marceror]

Welcome to being the first person on my ignore list Gromnir. I made a few comments based on my experience with the game a while back (which is around 400 hours). People can take them or leave them.

 

You're the only person who doesn't seem to get that. You share your subjective opinions like you have found some objective truth about how people should enjoy the game, and in the midst of that make incorrect claims and incoherent points.

 

I will be quite pleased never to see another post from you again.

[Tigranes]

I really like this game, even though I'm not able to play it while I'm in Europe. So I'd rather not close the thread, you know? Now let's pretend this page never happened.

 

Generally speaking I like how the lockpick, etc. xp produces asymmetrical level ups, it makes you really long for that little bit extra to get your one character with lockpick into the next level, and also makes the player power progression a little more graduated, which helps ensure you're not 'stuck' underpowered against a given encounter for too long and keeps things rolling.

[Cantousent]

Great,

Chisel just go ****ing smoked by the robot bastards who followed me back to Santa Fe.  I will exact revenge.  It's harder to keep people alive who aren't on your team.  Still, even though I've only taken him out in order to level up Ralphy, I'll get by without him.  After all, all earthly things must fail.  Still, that's the third faction I will destroy as if by flood.  The Synths, the twisted cult, and the robots.  I am coming for them, and hell comes with me.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

Practically, unless you go out of your way to produce results like that, there's little asymmetry involved, Tig. While minor skill usage can bump some characters slightly further, combat and big quest rewards ensure that you'll still level up most characters at the same time.

Edited November 10, 2014 by WorstUsernameEver

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Over the last couple of days, I created another party (I'll go back to my other party soon) and did a few tweaks and took Marceror's suggestion with a leader having skills that are used a lot in the game. So I took. Lockpicking, demolitions, safecracking as well as leadership and a dialogue skill (hard ass) and lastly assault rifles. A lot of skills but it also freed up my other team members with having less skills which would mean they could max them out early.

 

My leader has rocketed in front of everyone. he was the quickest to get to level 2 and by level 3 he was a full level ahead. By level 10, he was more than 2 levels ahead. By level 20, he was 4 levels ahead of everyone else. He had 6 points in safecracking, locksmithing, demolitions and hard ass. 4 in leadership and 3 in assault rifles. While he had less points in AR then my other team members, he was still good in combat.

 

The rest of my party had 6, 7 and 9 points in assault rifles at level 16. They also had 7 in alarm disarming, 8 toaster repair, 7 mechanical repair,  8 Kiss Ass. So many points that I decided to take out some other skills like brute Force with 5 and animal whisperer with 4 points. I even took out blunt weapons and barter which ended up at 3 just for laughs.

 

Rose had just hit level 18 (when I hit level 20) and had 10 computer science, 9 assault rifles, 6 surgeon, 5 outdoorsman. 2 hand guns. I picked up Pizepi when I was level 8 and Pizepi was level 16 and Angela had just hit level 17. When my leader reached level 20, Pizepi was level 21.

 

Overall, this has been a fantastic test. At level 1, my leader had 7 AP which went up to 8 AP at level 10. The rest of my core group had 10 AP. Phenomenal amount of movement around the battlefield and could move just as much as Angela. I think doing this made the game easier because my three guys who had 6, 7 and 9 in AR just mowed everything down.

 

Also, I didn't double up on any skills that Pizepi and Rose had and only missed out on two Smart Ass checks early in the game which wasn't critical to anything and two disarm bombs in Darwin Village due to my guys not having any perception. But once I got Pizepi, it changed everything. I'll take this team to level 30 to see how far the leader will get in front of everyone else.

[Enoch]

Out of curiousity, what CLASSIC stats did you go with for that leader character? 

[Cantousent]

I'm going to shadow your test also, Hiro.  This is *not* because I don't trust you, but because I figure you would benefit from confirmation from someone who dislikes the build.  That's assuming you trust my honest assessment.  What I'll be looking at is combat efficiency and skill checks.  I'm not particularly impressed with 4 levels ahead at level 20 because, from personal experience with the game, which is substantial right now even if it isn't the 400 hours Marc had logged.  4 levels at 20 doesn't mean a huge amount, but with high int that could mean a decent spread of extra skills.  The real test of the build is combat.  By that I mean, you could skill stack one person and let the other three people shine, and how much they shine is the real payoff as far as I'm concerned.  At any rate, I'll take your exact initial build, if you include the stat mix for which Enoch asked.  Don't take this as a personal challenge, but a way to substantiate the claim.  I also plan on building a balanced party and spreading out the skills between them and then seeing how combat works for them.  My suspicion, which is my initial bias for the test, is that both parties will be perfectly viable on Supreme Jerk.

 

However, I think the fact that this debate is so hot and heavy really underscores what I see as a true deficiency in the design.  The suggested build requires substantial meta-gaming in the first place.  I don't necessarily hate meta-gaming, but I do think it's a poor argument for a great build that you can only discern through a level of familiarity with the game that is virtually impossible on even a second playthrough.  We're literally figuring out how to stack skills in order to game the skill check system for XP.  Frankly, my assessment is that if you're worried about extra levels, just go on raider hunting expeditions early and you'll get a few extra levels for everyone pretty quickly and you don't really even need to do that in order to surpass the obstacles I've seen.  On the other hand, while I avoid virtually all random encounters, I *am* a completenik, so I suppose that could have rendered extra levels a casual gamer might not have had.  Of course, a casual gamer probably won't skill stack either.

[Marceror]

Honestly, this sort of build is one I've been working with since my second run-through of the beta, and it wasn't a meta-gaming build at all. I actually didn't understand all of the potential pros and cons at that time. I don't think CHA even granted an XP bonus in that early release. My reasons for choosing the build were more roleplaying oriented, since I liked the idea of having a team member who wasn't much of a combatant, but could contribute significantly in other ways. I didn't want 7 combat clones in my party. I'm also rather OCD about wanting to complete as much of the game as possible, and that means having lots of smart characters and lots of skills. I don't like missing speech checks, or an opportunity to fix someone's broken well with mechanical repair, even if the pay off is negligible.

 

For my part at least, my intent was never to insinuate that this sort of build is superior, essential or even necessary. I'm sure you will do just fine with a more balanced build. You would do just fine with a team of fully combat optimized 18+ CI guys (more than fine, in fact).

 

So from that perspective I don't understand why there is a "debate" at all about this. At the end of the day, play the game in the way that you enjoy. If the "Charismatic Genius" build sounds enjoyable. Play it and have a good time. If it sounds like an anathema, avoid it at all costs. Whatever you do, just make sure you're having fun doing it. That's what these games are meant for, after all.

[Cantousent]

If it's not a debate, no need to back up the theory crafting. I agree entirely about going for what you consider fun. My next run, I'm more interested in the theme. Seriously considering that LOST run. Soooo, if I'm not going to substantiate the cha/int leader idea, maybe I'll go with two skills guys and two complete combat folks, one of whom will be a brawler with Brute Force. Two skills guys? Niles and Frasier Crane?

[Enoch]

Soooo, if I'm not going to substantiate the cha/int leader idea, maybe I'll go with two skills guys and two complete combat folks, one of whom will be a brawler with Brute Force. Two skills guys? Niles and Frasier Crane?

I've toyed with the idea of having two 1-INT front-liners and 2 10-INT back-liners.  The group would have the same aggregate SP/level as my present crew (INTs of 4, 4, 4, and 10), but I wonder if the front-liners will suffer because they aren't able to max their main weapon skill quickly enough.  Start them each with 3 ranks in their weapon skill and 1 rank in a 3rd-tier non-combat skill (Alarms?  Mech Repair?  Brute Force?), but completely max-out the weapon before putting a second rank in the other skill. 

 

In this vein, I suggest making a 1-INT brawler with Brute Force as the secondary skill, naming her Ko-ko, and having her wear the Gorilla Suit for the whole game. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Enoch

[Hiro Protagonist II]

For me, while my leader is benefitting from being ahead of my core team with extra skills as well as putting more points in skills at a higher level. It's the other three team members who've also really shined because of their high AR skill. All three are nearly or just as good as Angela. I mean one already has a 9 in AR at level 16 while Angela has 9 in AR at level 22. Admittedly I did put a couple of points in Outdoorsman for Angela to avoid every single random encounter on the map. Rose having a 10 in AR makes it easy as well.

 

I don't recall having both combat and non-combat skills so high for my 3 core team members in previous runs. When you have skills like toaster repair at 8, mechanical repair at 7, every check is 100%, it becomes really easy. My three guys are more like L.A. equivalent with their skills and I can see them maxing them very early.

 

6 skills is a little too much for a leader imo. I should have given the dialogue skill to one of the other team members and kept it at 5. But with my themed party, it made sense for this character to have the hard ass skill. Otherwise, I would only keep it at 5 and no more with skills like Assault Rifles, Lockpicking, Safecracking, Demolitions and Leadership. That seems to be the sweet spot imo.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Cantousent]

Hey, what was the theme of the skill stacked party, Hiro? I got a kick out of the Koko idea, which made me think of a monkey theme. One of my skills monkeys could be Curious George.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

My themed party is modelled after Battle Angel Alita. One of the best post-apocalyptic manga series I've been reading since the early 90s. I just wish James Cameron would get around to making the movie. He was waiting for the technology to catch up and I think it's caught up now but can't really say. It'll be a pretty hard movie to make.

 

I'll be maxing out Alita's, Sechs and Dr Ido's AR skill pretty soon and will be going with Brawling, Blunt and Bladed weapons but not actively using them until LA to see how they shape up in the end game. Will be pretty funny seeing those three characters perform as they do in the manga with martial arts. My leader Zazie is purely an Assault Rifle character as is the case in the manga.

 

Also, it was good to see what the cut off point for a leader. 6 skills is one skill too many and I shouldn't have taken the dialogue skill. I should've given it to the character who has 9 in AR and it would still be a good party. I do think the five skills I mentioned is pretty good for a leader.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Enoch]

Hey, what was the theme of the skill stacked party, Hiro? I got a kick out of the Koko idea, which made me think of a monkey theme. One of my skills monkeys could be Curious George.

 

Well, as far as I know, there is only 1 gorilla suit available.  But it'd be worth using a save editor to get a few extra copies. 

[Cantousent]

lol  I'll CLUA in the gorilla suits and get down to monkey business.  *After* I finish the current run.

[Marceror]

lol  I'll CLUA in the gorilla suits and get down to monkey business.  *After* I finish the current run.

That would be pretty awesome...

 

IF it were possible to CLUA stuff into Wasteland 2!  /nerdy snort

 

 

Hey Cantousent, 1998 called. It wants its game engine back!

 

 

[Cantousent]

I kept hitting the keys but nothing happened!  Why! Won't! This! Work!

[Cantousent]

Sorry about the double post, but I can't edit my previous one.  Anyhow, does anyone know how I go about

getting rid of this puppy?  I said I'd find a home, but now I just wish I'd been a hardass and told him to scoot.  I don't want to fret about an animal companion.  They always get themselves killed and that angers and depresses me.