Do you get Attributes on Level Up?

[Pray]

Some reason, with all the talk about it, I thought you did.

 

But you only ever set attributes at level one and that's the last time you play with them?

[MasterPrudent]

As it stands in the current beta version you do not gain attribute points after chargen.

[Pray]

I find that to be really lame.

 

Really hampers the growth of your champion.

[Lephys]

I recall Josh saying that we might gain attribute points at some point in character progression, but that, if so, it would still be very infrequently. None of that "every 2 levels you get another point" stuff or anything.

[frapillo80]

Very limited attribute increase, tied to very specific and very rare/obscure quests would sound very nice to me (like the Tarot Deck in the Watcher's Keep, or Minsc +1 strength in Unfinished Business' quest for Boo)...

[Pray]

Wow that's, so very lame.

 

To have to make such a character developing decision at the start of the game with no chance to change it later.. Very lame.

 

Give us 1 point per level up, at least.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Pray

[Lephys]

You act as though there's nothing else in the game that allows you any control over your character's development, shy of him magically becoming more inherently dexterous/intelligent/resolved/perceptive/etc.

 

What would be kind of lame is if you gained a stat point every single level, and by level 12, you had a score of at least 17 in every stat. Because, at that point, what's the point of stats? "I can succeed at 80% of the checks in the game, and can do anything quite well! 8D!"

Edited September 25, 2014 by Lephys

[Matt516]

I mean... it's just one way of doing things. The *IE game* way of doing things, I might add. ;P (PS:T is a special case)

 

Attributes define your character's natural tendencies and abilities, and talents/skills let you grow your character in the way that you want. I wouldn't mind getting attribute points on level up, but the game doesn't need it by any means. YMMV of course. But I don't think its an unreasonable decision by any means.

[Sensuki]

I don't think you do, but a +1 every 5 levels or something would be nice.

[Shallow]

I don't think you do, but a +1 every 5 levels or something would be nice.

Isn't the level cap at 12? Wouldn't every 4 or even 3 levels thus be more sensible?

[Sensuki]

No, because there will be an Expansion and sequels. 

[Pray]

If you got one every 2 levels, it would only be 10 by the end of the game, and it sure as hell would make me feel like i was customizing my characters a great deal more.

 

I feel like without gaining attributes, leveling your character will feel a little more bland than it already does.

 

I mean why wouldn't you character get a little faster/smarter/stronger/courageous as he experienced all these combats and experiences.

 

Also this means your companion champions will be a little more set in stone when you get them.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Pray

[gkathellar]

If you got one every 2 levels, it would only be 10 by the end of the game, and it sure as hell would make me feel like i was customizing my characters a great deal more.

 

I feel like without gaining attributes, leveling your character will feel a little more bland than it already does.

 

I mean why wouldn't you character get a little faster/smarter/stronger/courageous as he experienced all these combats and experiences.

 

Also this means your companion champions will be a little more set in stone when you get them.

 

Your character does get faster/smarter/stronger/whatever. That's what your levels represent - you gain a level, your numbers go up. Attributes, on the other hand, are inherent traits, measures of potential. They shouldn't end up mattering a whole lot by mid-levels.

 

This was the old-school approach to ability scores, and you just have to roll with it. Character customization was never one of the key features of IE games, and much more than they have at present would feel unwelcome (to me, anyway).

[TheisEjsing]

It has to be unforgiving. They should rather take away a random point at every 5 levels. Just like in real life.

Edited September 25, 2014 by TheisEjsing

[Lephys]

Your character does get faster/smarter/stronger/whatever. That's what your levels represent - you gain a level, your numbers go up. Attributes, on the other hand, are inherent traits, measures of potential.

This.

 

They shouldn't end up mattering a whole lot by mid-levels.

That's not entirely true, especially since, in PoE, the modifiers they produce are percentages instead of hard numbers.

 

In other rulesets (like D&D), your stat score might give you a +3 to damage rolls, for example. So, eventually, the value of 3 lessens, and more stat points are very useful. In PoE, it might give you, instead, 30% extra damage. Thus, if you gained stat points and pumped them into Might, in this instance, you'd start getting higher and higher percentages of bonus damage, on top of any other damage factors affecting your base damage (weapons, skills, abilities, possible base damage increases due to level, etc.)

 

So, no, it's not inherently ridiculous or anything for stat points to be gained with character progression. But, it doesn't make much sense in the context of PoE's mechanics, and it's definitely not a necessity.

 

The other reason stats will still matter later on is for all non-combat rolls/checks. Conversations, scripted events, skill checks, etc. Those are always pertinent. 18 Dexterity is always going to be just as significant at the end of the game, in that respect, as it was at the beginning of the game. That ties back into the idea of stats being sort of inherent measures of your character's attributes relative to all other people in the game world. By their very nature, they aren't really things that are meant to change very often/by a very large margin.

[gkathellar]

Fair point. Yeah, that.

[rjshae]

What would be kind of lame is if you gained a stat point every single level, and by level 12, you had a score of at least 17 in every stat. Because, at that point, what's the point of stats? "I can succeed at 80% of the checks in the game, and can do anything quite well! 8D!"

 

Exactly. Fast attribute progression is just a pavlovian reward mechanism, so how is that not lame? Slower attribute progression is probably closer to an accurate simulation of human development, at least once you're an adult. Perhaps not if you're still a teen.

 

Fast progression, as in the DA series, also encourages weird attribute asymmetries and over-specialization. The latter is okay for combat-oriented games, but the rapid progress makes it more difficult to take the drama seriously. It works well in games like D:OS that are a bit tongue-in-cheek. But not nearly as well in DA:O.

Edited September 26, 2014 by rjshae

[AlperTheCaglar]

Leveling related attribute increases has got to be the lamest, most immersion-destroying, most metagamer thing I've ever seen.

 

Your attributes are who you are as a person regarding the game world.

 

If quests or very special results increase them, awesome--

 

If magical items, or specific potions permanently or temporarily increase them, awesome--

 

But making the player increase their attributes just because they reach some number of levels, frequent or not, is just mutilating precious character development into some powergaming hack n slash numbers game.

 

PoE should not be a brother to Diablo III, it should be a brother to BG2.

[Lephys]

Yeah, in games like DA or Diablo, the stats basically serve no other purpose than to function as an advancement/combat-improvement system. But, in a ruleset like PoE, that actually revolves around story-character intertwinement, etc. they're measures of your characters distinctness in the world. If you start the game with 12 out of 18 Intellect, then that marks you as someone of pretty-decent Intellect, out of all the minds in the game world. If you simply go adventuring for a few weeks, and are able to gain 18 Intellect, how did running around slaying things allow you to go from having decent intelligence to INCREDIBLE intelligence? You're now a genius, out of everyone in the world..

 

Now, if you found a bracelet or circlet or something that boosted your Intellect by 1, that wouldn't be too crazy. But, if you just inherently become Mightier, or more Dexterous, or more Perceptive (your eyesight and senses just IMPROVED? You used to be blind, but now you have 20/5 vision! Amazing!), things start making absolutely no sense at all.

 

There's nothing wrong with Diablo stats. However, there's something wrong with Diablo stats in a game like PoE. Just like there's nothing wrong with vinegar, but there's something wrong with vinegar in your milkshake.

[illathid]

Leveling related attribute increases has got to be the lamest, most immersion-destroying, most metagamer thing I've ever seen.

 

Your attributes are who you are as a person regarding the game world.

 

If quests or very special results increase them, awesome--

 

If magical items, or specific potions permanently or temporarily increase them, awesome--

 

But making the player increase their attributes just because they reach some number of levels, frequent or not, is just mutilating precious character development into some powergaming hack n slash numbers game.

 

PoE should not be a brother to Diablo III, it should be a brother to BG2.

 

Ummm... What?

 

You my have a preference for static attributes, but there is nothing inherently wrong about having stat increases on level up. Attribute increases are one form of character progression that can occur in an RPG. this doersn't mean they are necessarily right for PoE, but they could easily be included in an RPG system and not have it devolve into "some powergaming hack n slash numbers game."

Edited September 26, 2014 by illathid

[AlperTheCaglar]

Ummm... What?

 

 

You my have a preference for static attributes, but there is nothing inherently wrong about having stat increases on level up. Attribute increases are one form of character progression that can occur in an RPG. this doersn't mean they are necessarily right for PoE, but they could easily be included in an RPG system and not have it devolve into "some powergaming hack n slash numbers game."

 

 

Attributes are a numerical representation of your character, her weaknesses and strengths, her liabilities, and her potential. Changing them outright means you are changing something fundamental about her physical or mental being. It is not supposed to be something taken lightly.

 

That is why a major quest, a major item, or a major character epiphany/triumph is needed to even nudge it a little.

 

Rewards given lightly become under appreciated, and in the current dark age of S.M.E.G. (Spoiled Millennial Entitled Gamers™) we have need of rarer and hence more precious cRPG rewards on the stat department.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AlperTheCaglar

[illathid]

Attributes are a numerical representation of your character, her weaknesses and strengths, her liabilities, and her potential. Changing them outright means you are changing something fundamental about her physical or mental being. It is not supposed to be something taken lightly.

 

That is why a major quest, a major item, or a major character epiphany/triumph is needed to even nudge it a little.

 

That's just like... your opinion man.

 

A big part of many narratives (fantasy, sci-fi, sports drama, etc.) is the idea of progression and advancement. Of character being able to do theirs the could do before or be better at the things they could all ready do. Having attribute changes on level increases is one way to show this. This is especially true if any of the benefits of these attributes can not be gained any other way, like increased action speed or AoE size.

 

Also, you come off as super condescending with all of your side comments about entitlement and meta gaming. It really doesn't help your case. Just FYI.

[AlperTheCaglar]

All of what you just said come off as a meta gamer trying to justify his min-maxing

 

You progress and advance through feats and abilities and spells you gain, not cybernetically changing core attributes whenever you like. Its not realistic, its not good RP, its not even fun when you get rewarded for nothing at all.

 

And if you view that as condescending, that's probably because my criticism strikes too close to home for you. PoE should be an exemplary product which tries to rejuvenate the old school principles of depth before loot, character development before stat minmaxing.

 

For the past 15 years games like BG2, Fallout1/2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum etc. have become "niche" because consoles and immediate-satisfaction junkies ruined proper and immersive storytelling. Little by little, publishers and ADD casuals chipped away stuff like the one we are discussing or implanted hand-holding dumbed down linear experiences to create a massive drought of quality games.

 

PoE has great potential to build upon the resurrection of this genre, I do not think it should compromise to sate some powergamer who's shocked he has to struggle within a heroic quest.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AlperTheCaglar

[rjshae]

This is why I like point-buy systems such as HERO/Champions or GURPS. The economics is already in place to apply weight to your attribute decision making.

[illathid]

All of what you just said come off as a meta gamer trying to justify his min-maxing

 

You progress and advance through feats and abilities and spells you gain, not cybernetically changing core attributes whenever you like. Its not realistic, its not good RP, its not even fun when you get rewarded for nothing at all.

 

And if you view that as condescending, that's probably because my criticism strikes too close to home for you. PoE should be an exemplary product which tries to rejuvenate the old school principles of depth before loot, character development before stat minmaxing.

 

For the past 15 years games like BG2, Fallout1/2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum etc. have become "niche" because consoles and immediate-satisfaction junkies ruined proper and immersive storytelling. Little by little, publishers and ADD casuals chipped away stuff like the one we are discussing or implanted hand-holding dumbed down linear experiences to create a massive drought of quality games.

 

PoE has great potential to build upon the resurrection of this genre, I do not think it should compromise to sate some powergamer who's shocked he has to struggle within a heroic quest.

Ok, let's start at the top.

 

First, what's wrong about min maxing? Remember the Stormwind fallacy.

 

Second, you've not actually explained why gaining attributes through character progression is bad. You said it's not realistic, but simulationism can die in a fire when it comes to system design. You said it's bad RP, how? You said it's not fun for being reward for doing nothing at all, but leveling by definition is not nothing.

 

Also, your destinction between feats and attributes is nonsensical. Imagine PoE had a talent called "Schmight" that could be taken multiple times and gave you 2% damage and healing each time you selected it. According to what you've said this would be completely fine as it's a talent and not an attribute increase, which is utterly rediculous.

 

Regarding the rest of what you've said, all I'll say is that by so far I don't think you have met your burden of proof in showing that attribute gain on level up is never an acceptable design choice for an RPG.