A Positive Video: Josh Sawyer and Pillars of Eternity

[BruceVC]

@ Sensuki

 

I've said this before but the commitment that you and  others have shown towards the PoE franchise  is nothing short of very admirable

 

I will be very surprised if anyone at Obsidian doesn't  think that end of the day your intentions and efforts  are really to make PoE a better game for everyone

 

Now we just need to you make a few new videos explaining and highlighting how important a Romance implementation will in the PoE 2 and you will truly be my hero

[TheNationer]

@ Sensuki

 

Now we just need to you make a few new videos explaining and highlighting how important a Romance implementation will in the PoE 2 and you will truly be my hero

Why do people see romance as a loss worth mourning? I think the concentration on the other elements is far more important to a game like PoE (or its sequel) and that romance is at best irrelevant, maybe even actively damaging to the atmosphere of the game.

[Sensuki]

That's just BruceVC *shrug*. I think romances are often boring and forced, there's a lot of other types of interesting personal and interpersonal relationships to explore, besides romance.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

pretty much everything else could do with some improvements. The game needs to hit higher targets in combat and exploration feel and tighten up it's User Interface screens to be more usable and uniform. Those are the main areas that need improvement in broad strokes.

That statement, when taken on its own, suggests combat is all bad and exploration is all bad and ui is all bad. This how some of your videos come off. Frankly, Im a hardcore crpg gamer and I dont think the UI blows just because the text box is on the right. That just sounds silly. (I actually think its mostly pretty good...) Instead, some discussion could be had around what parts of combat, exploration and ui are rather good and should be expanded upon before delving the parts that, IN YOUR OPINION, could use some fixes. You do a pretty good job of itemizing things you feel should be fixed. Yet you might get further if you balance every negative thing you say with a positive thing you would like to see more of. You get more flies with honey and all that.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

That statement, when taken on its own, suggests combat is all bad and exploration is all bad and ui is all bad. This how some of your videos come off. Frankly, Im a hardcore crpg gamer and I dont think the UI blows just because the text box is on the right. That just sounds silly.

You're reading that statement wrong, and I'm also not sure how many of my videos you've watched based on that. You might want to check out this thread for some extra information

 

Instead, some discussion could be had around what parts of combat, exploration and ui are rather good and should be expanded upon before delving the parts that, IN YOUR OPINION, could use some fixes.

Search my post history and you'll find plenty. I just haven't done many videos that really focus on one of these issues (other than Dyrford Crossing Area Design) like this because there have been more fundamental issues to rectify before this can happen. I've also done a lot less of them since the new patch because I was busy focusing on my Attribute paper. Currently Matt516 have some things in the works about weapon balance and a few other tidbits as well. One thing at a time, and in a certain order.

[Shevek]

Yes, but in each individual video you might consider exploring what works and what doesnt. Rather than just what doesnt.

 

I dont think devs are balancing out those vids with your post history. In all likelihood, they may just watch a video or two rather than pour through every nook and cranny to get the context of every post of yours on the forum. In other words, put your best foot forward on those vids. You come off reasoned and all that but I do believe, on whole, a bit too critical.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

I don't think that's necessary. This is a beta test, not a school. My mother (who is also a teacher like you) finds me very cynical and always prefers positive things to negative things. I think this is a good attitude for beta testing to be honest.

 

My videos are not meant to make people like me, they are meant to outline issues with Pillars of Eternity. Most of my videos are unlisted on youtube as well, so that they will not come up for the general public when they search Pillars of Eternity on youtube. They are for the eyes of the beta testers and the developers.

 

I do mention things that are good, I just don't force them in, only when it comes up naturally.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

I disagree on several counts. Praise can be very helpful to do two things:

1. Stroke egos

2. Outline what works

 

This is true inside and outside of the classroom. Devs still have egos and still need reinforcement on what works.

[Sensuki]

The video in this thread is essentially that, right ?

 

I say what I think works, other people who may read more of my posts will likely chime in on that. I have said multiple times various things like I really like the main menu art, I like Kaz's portraits and I like how he has captured the IWD feel with his UI art work - but I have also said that I think the 720p limitation and small pop-up UIs are really bad, especially for people with larger screens.

 

For the music I have said that I like the main menu, I liked the first reveal trailer music and I like the Defiance Bay theme (which I pulled out of the game files) but I don't like the production style and the fact that Justin has not incorporated the 'method' used by Michael Hoenig and Jeremy & Jim Soule in the IE games music (forward melody, background instrumentation) and I don't like the overall lack of percussion.

 

I have done that for pretty much everything I critiqued - just not in the videos, because the videos are for a specific purpose. They outline an issue, why I don't like it/why I don't think it works and offer suggestions for improvement. I do not need to add pandering into the videos, that is just unnecessary.

[Shevek]

Its not JUST pandering. But, hey, its your message, man. Its up to you how you want to deliver it.

 

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/03/the-ideal-praise-to-criticism/

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[PrimeJunta]

I think there's a cultural aspect to this also. IME Americans tend to expect -- and offer -- more positive feedback than people from most of the rest of the planet.

 

In Finland, of course, we rarely go beyond "not completely sh1t."

[Sensuki]

Its not JUST pandering. But, hey, its your message, man. Its up to you how you want to deliver it.

 

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/03/the-ideal-praise-to-criticism/

I don't know if that always applies. In a team-based environment that's absolutely true, as captain of my various Call of Duty 2 and 4 teams (including Archaic Esports, #1 in Aus 2010, 1st or 2nd in every tournament for 2 years straight) a completely positive attitude is required and needs to be reinforced [in competitive matches, anyway]. Some people are also more sensitive than others (we had one guy who would literally flare up at any negativity whatsoever, so it required delivering it to him in a certain manner in order for him to not get offended). If we were able to produce those results for 2 years in a row, I must have been doing something right, yeah?

 

I'm sure that's how Obsidian's managers and leads operate as well.

 

For beta testing, I am submitting bug reports and feedback and suggestions on specific issues with the game. I really don't need to add in "Guys I really like this and I really like this and I really like this and I really like this" for every single criticism I have, because that's just obtuse. There are not many things in the game that are perfect, and I think I handle my suggestions in a precise manner - Issue, Reason, Suggestion. That's all that's required.

 

Positive feedback towards Obsidian does not need to be delivered in bug reports and suggestions - it can be done externally to those.

 

Those of us who are submitting many bug reports and suggestions have often given each other a hi-5 for our work and dedication. I've exchanged many PMs with such people. If anything that team-based attitude is more critically applied to the beta backers collective.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

Things dont have to be perfect to be praised. Also, I dont see praise as obtuse or as irrelevant to a beta.

 

All problems are "betas." They are works in progress. In solving these issues, the same collaborative, team-based principles apply.

 

Ive recently moved out of the classroom and into educational administration. I find the need for praise even greater when working with adults than with working with kids.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

As I've said - I have given praise when it feels natural to give, but I don't feel it's necessary to go out of my way to compliment the good things about something I am critiquing. I only do it when it feels natural to do. Forced positivity is something that personally irks me (and yes I think my mother, who is a primary school teacher is like that often ).

[Shevek]

Giving praise often felt odd to me too at first but that changes through practice.

 

I am sure you can do a series of videos comparing the one dimensional encounter mechanics of the ie games with the tactical depth of poe. You could also look at how op wisdom was in pst or how ridiculous strength was in the ie games compared to dex to the proposed changes to attributes in poe (once they are patched in). You can compare the limited dialog system of the ie games to what poe does. Etc etc etc. Doing this can be very natural, does not need to be all negative or positive and could be of great value.

 

I find pillars to be a very good game in need of small tweaks. However, if one just sat through your videos as a casual bystander, it would seem like the worst thing since the atari version of ET.

 

Also, I am not saying I dont like you vids or that they arent appreciated. I do think your message may get more play if its balancd a bit more though.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

That's why the videos are NOT public. They are for the beta backers and public only.

 

All of those things just sound like an utter waste of time to me, none of that will contribute anything constructive to the game at all. My time would be better spent focusing on the issues with the game.

 

I disagree with you that PE's encounters have more tactical depth than the IE games. I also think the enchantment system is worse than the BG2 and SW:TotOR 2 crafting systems. I like the fact that you can upgrade anything though.

 

I think Pillars of Eternity needs more improvement than you think it does. Combat is a far cry from fun at the moment and falls far short of the Infinity Engine games. My assessment of Wilderness Exploration is limited to the two wilderness areas we have, but the Dyrford Crossing feels like an Icewind Dale area to me. I do realize that this was like the second ever wilderness area they made for the game, so hopefully the ones we don't have access to will be larger, more spaced out encounters and have less limited navmesh.

[Shevek]

Well, that explains it. I dont PoE is the mess you seem to think it is, then. I also like Icewind Dale. Frankly, some non dogpile ai and the proposed changes to health/stamina will fix most of my issues.

 

Would some better combat feedback help? Sure. Do I want them to balance attributes? Sure. Will the game be Duke Nukem Forever if those things dont happen? No.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

It's not a mess. It's just got a long way to go before I consider it to have reached it's target. I really enjoy Icewind Dale 1 & 2 as well but outdoor Wilderness exploration - is not one of it's strengths.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

Outdoor exploration sucked in Bg2 also. Bg1 had exploration due to the sheer amount of wilderness areas. Also, how can you judge outdoor exploration in a limited beta? We dont even have the full map but instead the functional equivalent to beregost and a couple surrounding maps.

[PrimeJunta]

Wel-l-l... we do have two outdoor maps. We don't know if they're representative of the general quality, size, and content density of outdoor maps in P:E, but assuming by default that they are doesn't strike me as unreasonable. This is supposed to be a representative slice of the game after all.

 

Which means that criticizing exploration is fair game, if based on these two outdoor maps. Which is what Sensuki has been doing.

[TheNationer]

Which mechanics do you actually like and feel are well implemented then? As that was the idea of this, not to just praise Sawyer himself @Sensuki. Because I have no idea from reading your forum posts, and if I was making the game I'd find it very difficult to understand what you - as one of the most active participants - actually like currently.

[Shevek]

Based on those two maps? Go through bg1, take two random outdoor maps. Whole lotta trees, some random monsters, maybe an npc that has has some quirky dialogue and rarely a dungeon. Thats pretty much every wilderness area in that game. I dont see how poe stacks up poorly to that model.

 

If anything, poe adds to exploration through resource management and storybook interactions.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Shevek

[morhilane]

BG1 had a lot of maps that were quite boring/empty. The two maps in PoE are a lot more busy in comparison, maybe even too busy.

[illathid]

Based on those two maps? Go through bg1, take two random outdoor maps. Whole lotta trees, some random monsters, maybe an npc that has has some quirky dialogue and rarely a dungeon. Thats pretty much every wilderness area in that game. I dont see how poe stacks up poorly to that model.

 

If anything, poe adds to exploration through resource management and storybook interactions.

 

Yeah, but they were much bigger, and took a lot longer to explorer. combat encounters were much more spaced out as well. At least I think that's what people who complain about exploration find to be lacking.

 

For the record, I detested wilderness maps in BG1, and would be absolutely thrilled if the two areas we have are representative of wilderness areas in PoE.

[Sensuki]

Because I have no idea from reading your forum posts, and if I was making the game I'd find it very difficult to understand what you - as one of the most active participants - actually like currently.

There is almost nothing that could not be improved in some way, but here are some of the things that I think are good enough:

 

I like the lore and setting

The general writing quality, even if a bit dry sometimes

The quests seem to have some reactivity, as well as choice and consequence

Main Menu art (perfect)

Kaz's portraits

The UI "styling" - but not the elements, positioning or the size

The number of classes

The attack resolution system

The 3D modelling is better than I expected (but many armor, facial and hair models could use improvement)

Character Backgrounds - nice little RP element

Area Map - which Roby Atadero significantly improved after one of my suggestion videos

Disposition and Faction mechanics

Interstitials and Scripted Interactions (which are also hamstrung by 720p size limit)

Main menu theme - which will be better when recorded live

Defiance Bay theme - which is really cool, will also be better when recorded live

The general environment art quality - some of it is not quite as good as the IE games though, and some of it suffers from noticeable compression

 

Pretty much everything else could do with a little bit of improvement, to A LOT of improvement.