Josh Sawyer on the "naked ranged characters" issue

[Uomoz]

 

There are potions in PoE, facepalm. Maybe you didn't read my posts (what a surprise!) I stated that the DnD health is not PoE's health, it's the stamina. Maybe the game would help you by changing the name of stamina to health? Herp.

 

Nope, don't need a name change. Just need more from that wonderful 4th ed system that you love, like healing spells and healing potions that heal your health in this game. And 4th ed rituals.. oh wait that's too gamey for you. herp derp.

 

 

Your argument ... is ... so terrible ..  I don't even ... whaaa

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Your argument ... is ... so terrible ..  I don't even ... whaaa

 

So when did enemies and your characters hit every time in 4th ed? Can't seem to find it in my players handbook. Can you give me the page number please?

[Uomoz]

Rofl! It's not a port it's more similar to 4th compared to 3rd, have you learned to read yet? Are you cherry picking unrelated arguments on purpose?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Uomoz

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Rofl! It's not a port it's more similar to 4th compared to 3rd, have you learned to read yet?

 

Also looking for where a Con of 3 gives a bonus to health. In fact, that's not representative of any D&D system. So with it's attributes, you're trying to peddle that it's closer to 4th than 3rd? ROFLMAO.

[Doppelschwert]

I don't get why people take every comment from josh literally and then twist it to the worst possible outcome.

 

- There is no reason 'low' refers to absolute instead of relative values, that is just assumed here

- You can get the enemy to prefer such characters simply by having a probability distribution weighted around relative stamina loss without making them deterministic derps

- Where comes the assumption from that the game would play better if enemies go for low health characters?

 

Don't take me wrong, Josh is certainly not unfallible, but at least wait until the implementation fails before taking anything apart. Obviously, he was talking about stuff that is supposed to be introduced in a patch at some point.

[Uomoz]

 

Rofl! It's not a port it's more similar to 4th compared to 3rd, have you learned to read yet?

 

Also looking for where a Con of 3 gives a bonus to health. In fact, that's not representative of any D&D system. So with it's attributes, you're trying to peddle that it's closer to 4th than 3rd? ROFLMAO.

 

 

 

Yeah it is! And if you don't see it, well I feel lucky you are not the designer of the game xD.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

at least wait until the implementation fails

 

The operative words here.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yeah it is! And if you don't see it, well I feel lucky you are not the designer of the game xD.

 

LMAO.

 

Attributes that have a 3 in them and gives bonuses is just like 4th ed. Bwahaahahaha.

[Uomoz]

Because the base 10 points level in DnD (+0 bonus) is exactly 0 points in PoE (+0 bonus). Have your neurons gone in vacation or something? xD

Edited September 7, 2014 by Uomoz

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Because the base 10 points level in DnD (+0 bonus) is exactly 0 points in PoE (+0 bonus). Have your neurons gone in vacation or something? xD

 

No. And it's why we have things like hit point bloat in PoE. Because you can't get down to 0 in PoE but you can get down to 10 in 4th ed. Understand?

 

You can even go lower than 10 in 4th ed. How do you go lower than 0 in PoE? You can't. You can't even reach the baseline of 0.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Uomoz]

You can't and that's a design decision, but to say that this system is not inspired from 4th is a gigantic fallacy from you. Like all your other arguments anyway.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

You can't and that's a design decision, but to say that this system is not inspired from 4th is a gigantic fallacy from you. Like all your other arguments anyway.

 

No, I never said it was never inspired. I said a lot does not come from 4th ed. And that's a fallacy with your argument.

[Uomoz]

But it does, even if it's not copy pasted. Like the health system is heavily inspired by 4th, but you are clearly blind to that.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Nope and saying it is isn't going to change the fact that a lot of it is not inspired by it. Still waiting on those pages numbers in my players handbook where this is inspired from.

[Uomoz]

Nope and saying it is isn't going to change the fact that a lot of it is not inspired by it. Still waiting on those pages numbers in my players handbook where this is inspired from.

 

Jeez.

 

Sawyer:

 

melnorme said: So, after examining PoE's health/stamina system, it dawns on me that "damage spread" has changed from a tactical to a strategic concern. In AD&D, if your tank got beat up badly in a fight, you could heal him, and he could just keep on tanking until you ran out of healing resources. In PoE, since you can't heal him, you have to make sure he doesn't get hit too hard over the long term. So, his reliability as a tank is diminished and other characters must be ready to fill that role. Intentional?

Damage spread isn’t really being “spread” right now due to how AI targeting works, but our system has similar underpinnings to healing surges in 4E.  In both the scenarios you’re describing, healing is a strategic concern.  In AD&D and 3.X, you were limited by healing resources, typically from a cleric or (rarely) a druid.  You still didn’t want anyone to take too much damage over time since the healer would have to continually dump his or her limited spells into the characters to keep moving.

In 4E and PoE, clerics/priests serve more of a tactical function than a strategic function.  Outside of combat, 4E characters can use their own surges without needing a dedicated healer.  Within combat, they usually either need to use Second Wind or have a surge triggered by a cleric or similar healing character.  But even if a cleric triggers a surge (e.g. via Healing Word), it’s the targeted character that’s using it, not the cleric.  4E clerics sprinkle a little extra healing on top of the surge, but the surge is typically doing the majority of the healing.  Much more than in AD&D or 3.X, you don’t need a dedicated healer in 4E in a strategic sense — though they can be incredibly valuable, tactically.

For defense-oriented characters — both in PoE and 4E — their defensive abilities and their HP/surges/Health are their resources.  They have high HP/Stamina/Health because they’re intended to take the lion’s share of damage.  Everyone needs HP to keep moving, but when a defender runs out, the line of defense drops.  PoE’s AI targeting currently dogpiles on the nearest available target, so if you send your fighter forward, he or she is going to suffer significantly more than a 4E defender would (assuming the DM didn’t just have everyone dogpile).

I think that when the AI targeting improves, damage will spread out more.  Additionally, I think all the front line characters need to have their health set up more like the barbarian with Thick-Skinned.  After all, in 4E, surges are proportional to total health, but even so, the front line classes have more surges to burn every day.  E.g. wizards have 6 base surges and fighters have 9.  4E characters also get more surges the higher their Con, so it’s not uncommon for a front-line character have almost twice as much personal healing potential.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Uomoz

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yeah and I responded to that post. Weak argument is weak to keep posting the same stuff.

[Uomoz]

AHAHAHAH. REad it, it's the answer to your stupid questions. The health system is 4th edition based. Deal With It.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

AHAHAHA. Health system is based on 4th ed. Yeah as much as being put in a blender, swallowed and shat out the backside into the game. I guess if you're a fan of that sort of system in PoE, I can see you liking it.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Uomoz]

You'll eventually deal with it. Or you'll keep doomsaying and whining for the next 4 months or so.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

No. If the systems and gameplay improve I'll be the first one to congratulate it. I've even congratulated parts of the game and agree with some of those design choices like the reputation system over the alignment system in D&D. But keep peddling that doomsayer tag on me. It's cute.

[Uomoz]

[forgottenlor]

 

 

 

 

4e combat is better than 3e combat... if you play with figurines on a grid with battlefield features also on it. If you're pure PnP, with combat done purely by description, it stinks. AD&D and 3e OTOH work just as well that way as on a grid.

 

The main problem of 4e is that it fails as a role-playing game. The previous editions are mechanically rubbish, but at least they do support role-playing, and especially 3e even lets you create character concepts somewhat flexibly with the multiclassing rules, if you're not too concerned about minmaxing. If you drop most of the arbitrary requirements for prestige classes and feats, it allows a quite a bit of player freedom, making it almost serviceable. But for PnP groups who are in it primarily for the roleplaying 4e is an abject failure.

This was my experience as well. I ran 4th edition about a year before switching to Pathfinder. Noone complained about the combat mechanics. Rather it was people complaining that there was no more straightforward and simple class, like the fighter. There was no more super complex class like the mage. Everything was more or less the same. Skills and their use seemed more watered down. Balance is fine and good, but not at the cost of character and atmosphere.

 

 

I DM a 4E campaign and ran three others.  The point that there are no more super simple classes is true.  The idea that all the classes are the same is completely and totally false.  

 

Even two of the basic healing classes, Shaman and Cleric, play dramatically differently.  Clerics focus on straight up heals and some direct damage.  They have some pretty significant bonuses to single target healing, especially in early game.  Shamans have a spirit companion that's the bases of all their buffs; they teleport all over the battlefield, base all the buffs off proximity to the spirit companion, heal as areas of effect, and do significant buffs with a focus on teleportation.

 

Let's see, then there's wild magic sorcerers; who have 80 million special additions to their spells based on the die roll, the stage of the moon, and whether you see the same color blue that I see.  Even in the same class, illusionists play entirely differently from evoker types.  Psionicists make a ton of temporary traps and automatic attackers over the board, oh and they have a power that lets them summon "any" non-magical item for a day with weight limits.  My DMs never let me psionicists, because it was too easy to break the game.

 

The constant, constant, constant bitching about 4E classes being the same normally comes down to the same garbage criticisms:

People never tried the circuitous and relatively hidden, but surprisingly usable dual-classing rules.

People want quadratic mages or ubermensch clerics back.  Why even have classes then?  PnP Skyrim would work just as well.  

People only played it for a little bit, or not at all.

People want to look through 500 sourcebooks so they can make their own version of pun-pun.

 

 

Yeah there's plenty of areas 4E falls down, but class variety isn't one of them.

 

I was playing with a group mixing very experienced players with a bunch of newcomers. The newcomers found the classes a bit overwhelming in the beginning. No class in 4E compares with the simplicity of a 3.5E Fighter or Barbarian. The experienced players complained that they were limited on what they could do outside of combat. For example, however useless spells like animal messanger, major image, or augury might seem for a CRPG, they could be used very creatively outside of combat. Things like these disappearing were upsetting people. And sorry, no 4E class plays like the 3.5 E wizard who has a bevvy of spells in his spellbook and must decide what would be useful to learn in advance for a situation. We played for a year, so your attempts to put my group into one of your "people who" category just isn't correct.

Edited September 7, 2014 by forgottenlor

[Caladian]

Specifically for the ranger, and to a lesser extent the chanter it appears, if you don't want to have a nakid ranger it is simple (however not intuitive) allow some of your DT be part of the beast.  If you do that, then they will want to wear better armor to better protect their pet, ergo themselves.

[Stun]

Because someone with low stamina would be panting, sweating, exhaling heavily, bleeding etc.  Exhaustion and fear leave signs that are detectable for virtually every sense.

No, aside from maybe bleeding, stamina does not function that way in PoE. It is not a measurement of exhaustion. Having low stamina does not prevent your barbarian from activating his barbarian sprint. or anyone from activating their super-athletic abilities, for example.

 

The signs you're looking for would come in the form of the affliction states (hobbled, prone etc.) and those *should* cause enemies to take notice and adjust their AI's. But simply being able to detect when a character's stamina bar is low? Uh-uh. That's ESP-based AI. it's silly.

[Zansatsu]

Not everything sawyer said was the end of the world but seriously, why are we defending a system promoting naked fighting even in limited encounters? Only the most primitive tribes fight this way. There is no good reason to go around naked.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Zansatsu