Life in PoE

[chacal]

Hello,

 

I'm new here and it's only efw days ago that i discovered PoE.... Reviewing all the posts, the pledges things.

I would like to ask some questions that i didn't find answers in forum or in blog...

First, I never really played BG games, never go more than Beregost. I just didn't catch with the game (more on this later)

On the other hand i did liked IW games and Fallout 1 & 2 and played them years ago multiple times.

 

I didn't catch with BG games because coming from Ultima 7 and 7 1/2 i was foudnig a lack of life in BG games. Lack of interactivity with environment, with NPC.... The story was good but I was unable to check evry barrel, unable to take food from table or cook anything, unable to close shutters.... The NPC were saying their stuff then were vanishing to void.... And they had no diary... I missed the crowded inns from Ultima games at meal times, and NPC sleeping during nights...

 

So my questions are : is there any change at this point in PoE, or is the philosophy the same. I do understand that people are demanding a Infinty engine like game, but still, bringing more life would be so good.

 

Thanx for answers.

[Leferd]

Ever play Planescape:Torment? This was the third game mentioned along within BG and IWD series. Expect reactivity to be similar to that game.

[Gromnir]

it will never be time to bake bread in PoE.  hopefully that doesn't ruin the game for you.

 

from the beta, Gromnir is uncertain o' the depth o' reactivity. like all the ie games which PoE professes to be attempting to re-imagine, the games are squad-based tactical combat games with role-play elements. the role-play aspects should be stressed more in PoE than in bg, but to what degree... am not yet certain. recent obsidian games place far greater importance on the dialogues between companion characters and the protagonist than you ever saw in the fallout games, so if that is a positive, you should be pleased. if you are annoyed by needy and noisy companions, then perhaps PoE is the wrong game.

 

the game environment is technically and artistically more than a decade advanced from the last of the ie games, but it is still 2d. interactivity will have limitations. given that it is a 2d environment, some o' these limitations will be addressed via dialogue cutscenes that make stat checks to see if a character may successfully swim across a river or climb a wall or... whatever. the solution to 2d that obsidian has chosen strikes us as rather clever approach.  it is worth watching some of the game demos floating around the internet to get a better idea of how characters will be able to interact with the game environment in a rather atypical ie game fashion. 

 

am suspecting the game will be story-driven degree, but am getting the impression it will be less so than ps:t... we don't have anything concrete to base that 'pon. have seen very little story in the beta so far.

 

you have time. game won't be out for many months and there will be increasing fan and press previews and demos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

it will never be time to bake bread in PoE.  hopefully that doesn't ruin the game for you.

 

from the beta, Gromnir is uncertain o' the depth o' reactivity. like all the ie games which PoE professes to be attempting to re-imagine, the games are squad-based tactical combat games with role-play elements. the role-play aspects should be stressed more in PoE than in bg, but to what degree... am not yet certain. recent obsidian games place far greater importance on the dialogues between companion characters and the protagonist than you ever saw in the fallout games, so if that is a positive, you should be pleased. if you are annoyed by needy and noisy companions, then perhaps PoE is the wrong game.

 

the game environment is technically and artistically more than a decade advanced from the last of the ie games, but it is still 2d. interactivity will have limitations. given that it is a 2d environment, some o' these limitations will be addressed via dialogue cutscenes that make stat checks to see if a character may successfully swim across a river or climb a wall or... whatever. the solution to 2d that obsidian has chosen strikes us as rather clever approach.  it is worth watching some of the game demos floating around the internet to get a better idea of how characters will be able to interact with the game environment in a rather atypical ie game fashion. 

 

am suspecting the game will be story-driven degree, but am getting the impression it will be less so than ps:t... we don't have anything concrete to base that 'pon. have seen very little story in the beta so far.

 

you have time. game won't be out for many months and there will be increasing fan and press previews and demos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Good advice and much more thorough than what I was prepared to write. However I am giving Obsidian the benefit of the doubt and am suspecting that they are aspiring for the depth and complexity of PS:T when it comes to interactivity. Afterall, I did back this game (and not for an unsubstantial amount of scratch) with the strong belief that Obsidian is going to deliver on their product based on their pedigree and strength of their back catalog.

[Gromnir]

 

it will never be time to bake bread in PoE.  hopefully that doesn't ruin the game for you.

 

from the beta, Gromnir is uncertain o' the depth o' reactivity. like all the ie games which PoE professes to be attempting to re-imagine, the games are squad-based tactical combat games with role-play elements. the role-play aspects should be stressed more in PoE than in bg, but to what degree... am not yet certain. recent obsidian games place far greater importance on the dialogues between companion characters and the protagonist than you ever saw in the fallout games, so if that is a positive, you should be pleased. if you are annoyed by needy and noisy companions, then perhaps PoE is the wrong game.

 

the game environment is technically and artistically more than a decade advanced from the last of the ie games, but it is still 2d. interactivity will have limitations. given that it is a 2d environment, some o' these limitations will be addressed via dialogue cutscenes that make stat checks to see if a character may successfully swim across a river or climb a wall or... whatever. the solution to 2d that obsidian has chosen strikes us as rather clever approach.  it is worth watching some of the game demos floating around the internet to get a better idea of how characters will be able to interact with the game environment in a rather atypical ie game fashion. 

 

am suspecting the game will be story-driven degree, but am getting the impression it will be less so than ps:t... we don't have anything concrete to base that 'pon. have seen very little story in the beta so far.

 

you have time. game won't be out for many months and there will be increasing fan and press previews and demos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Good advice and much more thorough than what I was prepared to write. However I am giving Obsidian the benefit of the doubt and am suspecting that they are aspiring for the depth and complexity of PS:T when it comes to interactivity. Afterall, I did back this game (and not for an unsubstantial amount of scratch) with the strong belief that Obsidian is going to deliver on their product based on their pedigree and strength of their back catalog.

 

oh, we have same/similar hopes. even when Gromnir has been disappointed by obsidian, we believes they has attempted to achieve interactivity that is beyond what is typical o' virtual any other popular developer o' crpgs today.  we may criticize individual obsidian developers and writers, but as a group, we feel they is kinda the benchmark for story-driven crpgs that try to balance in interactivity. 

 

though we haven't actual purchased their last couple releases...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wintersong]

it will never be time to bake bread in PoE.

But we can craft chocolate cookies!!!

[Night Stalker]

Hello chacal, and welcome to the forums.

 

To be perfectly honest I do not think PoE will be that much more interactive than other IE games. I even think that its lead designer said that there are no NPC day/night schedules (and the backer beta bears this out).

 

If you feel that interactivity and real-world simulation is important to you, I would recommend that you took a look at Larian Studios' Divinity: Original Sin, which not only have gotten smashing reviews, but also seems to explicitly harken back to the Ultima series in its environment interactivity and trappings (opening a bag to loot will show a grid window with bag graphic around etc.). I haven't played it myself, but I have heard almost nothing but good things about it.

 

I do hope, however, that you will stick around and see if PoE might strike your fancy.

[Nonek]

Yes Mr Chacal I was in the same boat when I first played Baldur's Gate, the world in comparison to Britannia felt so flat, lifeless and artificial, with nothing improved on other than combat and graphics, and hardly a hint of interactivity or any other passtimes to pursue other than slaughter. It was a clear and significant degeneration from my point of view, but a lot of people do not want more features, more interactivity or more pursuits, they just want a combat and conversation simulator. There are some groups whom want to drop one of these as well, making either a pure action game or a visual novel.

 

I suppose for a developer trying to appeal to all these disparate groups is difficult, and trying to match the features and content of twenty plus years in the past seems almost impossible now, even Original Sin could not implement day/night or npc cycles, and that is fairly much a love letter to Ultima. So in the end we must settle for all games being arpg's, with fewer features and content.

 

However it must be noted that the Ultima's were at the time of their making at the cutting edge of innovation and technology, they practically mandated buying a new rig or undertaking significant upgrades. So I suppose one must group them now alongside the Witcher 3, and whatever other games are pushing the visual and hardware limits of our computers, rather than a small Kickstarter with a very limited scope and budget. Also as others have said Poe is limited in being a spiritual successor to the IE games, and thus is affected by their scope, and apart from Torment they were all arpg's in truth.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I suppose for a developer trying to appeal to all these disparate groups is difficult, and trying to match the features and content of twenty plus years in the past seems almost impossible now, even Original Sin could not implement day/night or npc cycles, and that is fairly much a love letter to Ultima. So in the end we must settle for all games being arpg's, with fewer features and content.

 

 

Don't you throw your hands just yet, good sir! I have extremely high hopes for T:ToN. While not exactly your standard RPG setting, it may even surpass the best Ultimas in RPG depth and meaningful choices (perhaps even its combat, rare, but always meaningful - no trash mobs). Only thing I doubt it will surpass is Ultima VII's atmosphere as something lived in, here and now and yesterday. On the other hand, the Ultimas often lacked that cultural and historical time depth that Tolkien excelled in - and which Forgotten Realms and other settings sometimes (rarely) have succeeded in.

[Nonek]

There were a few details that echoed throughout Sosaria's history though, exploring them in the Serpent Isle (especially Shamino's backstory) and the Triad of Evil in the Gargish culture (of VI) was very interesting. Personally I thought one of the most intriguing snippets of history came from the skeletal remains of Zod, an early sorcerer who sought power from the Wisps and then cast the Armageddon spell wiping out all life on the world, there were several early theories that this spell ripped open the Moongates, and that Zod was the Guardian himself, a wingless Gargoyle not a human.

 

I suppose the main difference was that one had lived and played a part in most of these occurences, and felt the ripples of their actions echoing down through the centuries.

 

I'm extremely hopeful for Numenera myself, turn based seems far more fitting for an rpg and a brave move by the developers, but I still doubt we will see any significant living world elements making a return. A pity as I see them from a pen and paper perspective as such a bountiful vessel of opportunities and potential. I'm also hopeful that Poe's illustrated interactions will use the simple power of good prose to bring the world to life, there is certainly limitless potential there.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nonek

[PrimeJunta]

@IndiraLightfoot I get the vibe that T:ToN is all about story choices, not so much interactivity with objects in the world.

 

Also few games don't sound cool in the concept phase. At least few that manage to get $million$ in crowdfunding. We'll see what it's going to be like when it's closer to completion.

 

Tangent: I do like the writers and designers though. I'm especially intrigued by Adam Heine, that rarest of rare breeds, the non-obnoxious evangelical fundamentalist Christian. If he manages to work in elements of his worldview as cleverly and subtly as the Hindu and Buddhist elements were worked into PS:T, it's gonna be genuinely intriguing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

True. Item interactions were almost a hallmark of the best Ultimas. As for T:ToN, yeah un-muddled dreams are like night swimming - you feel naked and free, since you don't know what's lurking down below - and you don't see all the mud, the sharp rocks, pointy twigs, creepy bugs... 

[Teslacrashed]

I hear Divinity: Original Sin has a vast crafting system and a large amount of environment interactivity.

I personally don't always want a "everything and the kitchen sink" approach to RPGs.

the Ultima games and Elder Scrolls games are fantastic, and I like them very much, but sometimes it's also nice to have a more focused gameplay experience, where I'm not too caught up in simulation, but more narration and gameplay.

 

[Nonek]

The main narrative of the Ultima games was fantastic and their living worlds far superior to the Elder Scrolls, all they missed was good combat and apart from that their gameplay was eminently playable and fun. I say why not have it all. I realise that games have degenerated a lot in the last twenty years, but surely what was possible two decades and more ago can and should be replicated easily on an everyday basis now. If not what exactly has gone wrong, and why is nobody talking about it?

 

Just my personal opinion however.

[Teslacrashed]

The main narrative of the Ultima games was fantastic and their living worlds far superior to the Elder Scrolls, all they missed was good combat and apart from that their gameplay was eminently playable and fun. I say why not have it all. I realise that games have degenerated a lot in the last twenty years, but surely what was possible two decades and more ago can and should be replicated easily on an everyday basis now. If not what exactly has gone wrong, and why is nobody talking about it?

 

Just my personal opinion however.

No offence, but this does get talked about a lot, and brought up all the time.

 

Back then, generating mass quantities of sprite/2D graphics was incredibly easy after we reached certain levels of processor speed/ram.

Everything else was just some "moderate" algorithms and text.

 

They reached a peak point between being able to output content, and what computers were able to handle.

 

Back then, they didn't have 3D lighting engines (or lightning engines at all).

back then, they didn't have physics engines.

back then, they didn't have particle effects.

back then, they didn't have destructible environments.

back then, they didn't have fully voice-acted dialogue. (Are you aware of how expensive, both money and data-storage-wise, voiced dialogue is?)

 

All of the above require immensely more resources, and takes immensely more time to make.

 

The average graphics design/concept art/artwork staff for most AAA games is 50+. that's just to handle all the graphics and looks, not the engine, the lighting, the particle effects, etc.

 

It's not that simple anymore, hence why games today "can't do what they could 20 years ago"

 

Edit: I don't intend for any of the above to sound snarky/mean btw.

 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Teslacrashed

[chacal]

Thank you all for you complete answers.

I know more about what to await from PoE. Still if it lacks of interactivity, it can still be a very good, fun cRPG, story driven, with a lot of companions interactitys/dialogs even if it lack life...

That may work for me. It worked in IW and Fallouts.

 

No, never played P : T. For what reason I missed it ? Don't remeber. Will try it at gog maybe.

Will take a look to Divinity : Original Sin too....

 

Coming to discussion, I understand both of your points Nonek and Teslacrashed.... I also understand that PoE, with a relativly small budget, have the goal to recreate the feel of old Infinity games and the public is here for that...

The only modernday rpg where i feel "life" is a modded Oblivion or Skyrim , still they are truly big big games....

 

Again thanks for answers and sorry for poor English.

[Nonek]

Not snarky (I think this means sarcastic, like the English sarky, not sure) or mean as far as I can percieve Mr Crashed, I would disagree on voice acting because I don't see this as being an indispensible part of games at all. Destructible terrain I very rarely see in an rpg or most any other types of game, which leaves physics, particle effects and lighting which seem to be fairly much a necessary part of modern presentation I agree.

 

But even so with the inflated budgets, massive teams and decades of previous experience it seems rather depressing to say that modern developers simply can't do what they did twenty years ago. And yet when we ask for games resembling past ones, we are told we are wearing nostalgia goggles, when instead we want a return of content, features and value. We are constantly told that modern games are far superior and innovative, yet they mostly pale in comparison. Ah maybe i'm just a bitter old grognard, but the comfortable lies of publishers and their game journalist toadies seem to be a little difficult to swallow of late.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nonek

[chacal]

Again, have to agree with Nonek, with the small addition that publishers and designers do what the buyer want.... and we, nostalgic, old, grand fathers gamers, are a minority in today gaming world. Plus the publishers don't like risk. They do what is sure to work, and bring money.... therwise there is indie publishing but it's limited by nature....

[Teslacrashed]

nostalgic, old, grand fathers gamers, are a minority in today gaming world

 

This is a bit hyperbolic.

 

Minority? Maybe. But there's still games of all genre's being made today. from throwback retro games, to tough-as-nails roguelikes to brand new genre's being made (Minecraft).

 

Back on track though, I don't feel adding destructible/interactive terrain would really "fit" for the theme of this game. Sometimes those elements can feel downright silly, trying to just fire a crossbolt at a bandit jumping you inside a city and next thing you know you're knocking down walls of houses, then what? No more city after a few battles? No thanks.