Per Encounter v. Per Rest Abilities

[Bazy]

1) I find myself more satisfied with my "per Encounter" abilities than my "per Rest." I think because Encounter abilities feel like a cooldown and something that will lose if I don't use it. In contrast Rest abilities are something I lose if I do use them, and feel more like consumables I need to save "just in case."

 

2) Additionally, I rarely use most of my Rest abilities. For example, Rank 1 spells on my druid are all pretty cool. However, I very rarely cast anything except tanglefoot. I would love to use others but tanglefoot is just too strong. 

 

I think #2 is a greater problem. At the least I would like to see more abilities be per encounter than per rest. (Or a system like the wizard has to convert spells from per encounter to rest) But I think what I would really prefer is a cooldown system like Divinity:OS which could be lowered by talents/attributes. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bazy

[Sensuki]

Part of this issue is the adventuring day is too short. Your tanks run out of Health too quick and then you have to rest without actually using up many daily resources at all.

 

I was honestly surprised that the Fighter gets two knock downs per encounter, it's a pretty strong disable.

 

There's no pre-buffing, which magnifies the issues even further - makes it hard to consume many consumables and whatnot.

 

When the length of the adventuring day is fixed, we should be able to judge use of daily resources better.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[Mayama]

Part of this issue is the adventuring day is too short. Your tanks run out of Health too quick and then you have to rest without actually using up many daily resources at all.

 

I was honestly surprised that the Fighter gets two knock downs per encounter, it's a pretty strong disable.

 

There's no pre-buffing, which magnifies the issues even further - makes it hard to consume many consumables and whatnot.

 

When the length of the adventuring day is fixed, we should be able to judge use of daily resources better.

 

What difficulty do you use? On my last playthrough I had to rest 4 times on normal difficulty. I mean you dont lose much health on most encounters anyway, those exploding ghosts in the last dungeon are basicaly the only enemies that hurt alot. Spiders and beetles are only dangerous and drain your health if you dont use ways to counter poison.

[Sensuki]

Hard.

 

To be fair I have only played the Dyrford Crossing and the dungeons in it, I haven't gone to Stormwall Gorge. I am doing a Let's Play for the RPGCodex when the beta is more stable and I want to try and go into it relatively fresh, so I haven't done any quests, just tested combat in a few areas.

[Mayama]

Hard.

 

To be fair I have only played the Dyrford Crossing and the dungeons in it, I haven't gone to Stormwall Gorge. I am doing a Let's Play for the RPGCodex when the beta is more stable and I want to try and go into it relatively fresh, so I haven't done any quests, just tested combat in a few areas.

 

I think their needs to be some sort of balance process bevor we know how long a adventuring day is. Right now their are to many spells that let you cheese through the game. A better AI would also help.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Mayama

[Sensuki]

Absolutely. I've been saying in the other threads that it's hard to get a grasp on the core issues with combat because of the amount of bugs in it.

 

Once the auto attack bug, selection bugs, pathfinding issues and bugs with DoTs are fixed/patched in, we should be able to properly critique the speed of encounters and whatnot.

 

I was merely talking from my experience so far. Been mostly focusing on non-gameplay suggestions and reporting bugs since the game isn't hugely playable atm.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[Zitchiock]

One issue I have with the "Per Encounter" abilities is that they felt like necessities to use. Sensuki mentioned Knockdown for Fighters. As I can use this ability in every fight and it is very powerful, not using it just seems wasteful. I should begin every single fight with a Knockdown. When you are having to perform the same commands each fight, a sense of monotony can set in. If Knockdown were "Per Rest" (which could be justified by saying how much exertion it takes to Knockdown a creature, requiring rest before the character can muster the strength to do it again) than I wouldn't feel the need to use it in every combat. This would promote more combat strategy diversity. My two cents. 

[Sensuki]

Welcome to some of the issues with D&D 4th edition.

[Osvir]

Part of this issue is the adventuring day is too short. Your tanks run out of Health too quick and then you have to rest without actually using up many daily resources at all.

 

I was honestly surprised that the Fighter gets two knock downs per encounter, it's a pretty strong disable.

 

There's no pre-buffing, which magnifies the issues even further - makes it hard to consume many consumables and whatnot.

 

When the length of the adventuring day is fixed, we should be able to judge use of daily resources better.

That's partially due to Level 5 starting Classes. I think you only start with 1, and get the 2nd one on level 3-4 (IIRC).

Edited August 22, 2014 by Osvir

[DigitalCrack]

Part of this issue is the adventuring day is too short. Your tanks run out of Health too quick and then you have to rest without actually using up many daily resources at all.

 

I was honestly surprised that the Fighter gets two knock downs per encounter, it's a pretty strong disable.

 

There's no pre-buffing, which magnifies the issues even further - makes it hard to consume many consumables and whatnot.

 

When the length of the adventuring day is fixed, we should be able to judge use of daily resources better.

Sometimes I feel like it would work better switching health and stamina around and things could still work the same way just instead of dying from loss of overall health you would die from not having the stamina to recover from your wounds.  I dunno just a thought, cause that way you could have stamina drain a more equally and slower overall and would make sense when you have to rest cause everyone is getting too tired to recover from battle in general.

Edited August 22, 2014 by DigitalCrack

[Bazy]

One issue I have with the "Per Encounter" abilities is that they felt like necessities to use. Sensuki mentioned Knockdown for Fighters. As I can use this ability in every fight and it is very powerful, not using it just seems wasteful. I should begin every single fight with a Knockdown. When you are having to perform the same commands each fight, a sense of monotony can set in. If Knockdown were "Per Rest" (which could be justified by saying how much exertion it takes to Knockdown a creature, requiring rest before the character can muster the strength to do it again) than I wouldn't feel the need to use it in every combat. This would promote more combat strategy diversity. My two cents. 

I feel like it is more monotonous with per rest spells. Since you can rarely use Rest abilities you are forced to use 1-2 per encounter abilities... And when you do use your per rest abilities you are usually using the most powerful every single time. 

 

And I don't understand your argument about the fighter. I mean if his knockdown were per rest... you would literally do nothing during the fight except auto attack. I think that shows you need more abilities for each fight, not less. 

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a variety of per encounter spells to choose from? rather than an extreme on either end?

 

For example:

-Currently: Druid: has four level 1 per rest spells. No per rest spells. Only casts tanglefoot of those level 1 spells because it is the most useful. Same thing every time.

-All per encounter: Can cast tanglefoot, which goes on cooldown. Then is also free to cast other level 1 spells in the fight. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bazy

[Sensuki]

That's partially due to Level 5 starting Classes. I think you only start with 1, and get the 2nd one on level 3-4 (IIRC).

In the E3 demo you start with 2.

[Bazy]

There's no pre-buffing, which magnifies the issues even further - makes it hard to consume many consumables and whatnot.

You can pre-buff with consumables. It's pretty op right now. 

[Osvir]

 

That's partially due to Level 5 starting Classes. I think you only start with 1, and get the 2nd one on level 3-4 (IIRC).

In the E3 demo you start with 2.

I think you are right, I might be mixing it up with a different Class.

 

I went through all the Classes just to see regardless~:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67698-level-1-to-5-listed-all-classes/

^Could be a good reference table.

[termokanden]

I never liked per-rest abilities, not even in Baldur's Gate. In fact, I think it's one of the big weaknesses of the system, and it's what encouraged rest-spamming in the first place. Per-encounter abilities may be a bit better, though I'd prefer it if only a few abilities were per-encounter (for example, reviving a knocked-out party member is probably not something you should be allowed to repeat).

 

While this isn't going to get much support, I still have to say that I honestly like the typical MMO-like mana system much better. It keeps you from overspending and at the same time removes the tedium of managing your party's rest.

 

It's interesting to compare with Dragon Age: Origins since it's another game that tries to be a "spiritual successor" to the same games. Unfortunately, I think they made many mistakes in their game mechanics. For example, a mage could spam cheap lesser mana potions (since magic increases efficiency of potions and mages have high magic unless you're an idiot) and they would just never run out of mana. I feel that if it had been balanced a heck of a lot more, the system could actually work very well. In any case, I enjoy such a system more than the traditional Infinity Engine formula where you have to rest.

 

That said, I am still looking forward to the new rest system and will reserve my final judgement until I've tried it in the release version. At the very least it's interesting and I haven't tried it before.

Edited August 22, 2014 by termokanden

[Sensuki]

You can pre-buff with consumables. It's pretty op right now.

Yeah I know you can have one pre-buff. In the IE games you could drink heaps of potions though.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I haven't had much of a gripe with per Encounter vs. Per-Rest. My "non-caster" classes use their abilities fairly often, but this doesn't feel like a chore to me. Fighters are blocking and knocking, rogues are crippling and evading. That's what they should be doing. Ultimately, they are there for use, and that use isn't compelled. Necessity and opportunity cost is up to the player and will vary from individuals.

 

By comparison, it's my Wizard and Priest that feel a bit left out. I would have hoped that by "mid-level", at least tier 1 spells would be per encounter, but they are not. My martial characters are using abilities constantly, while my casters (veritable vessels of abilities), largely just attack and wait in reserve.

[Skipperro]

I was hoping too, to see wizard with at least some basic spells or abilities as "per encounter" in this beta. Knows someone from what lvl spells begins to be per encounter?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Skipperro