Experience point system in the beta and onwards

[IndiraLightfoot]

aluminiumtrioxid: It's not easy, but it has available predecessor systems that Josh & Co almost knows by heart, so I reckon if anybody can fix it it's them. On the other hand, that mix of several xp categories and xp triggers, which also criss-cross in a horrendous way, and you're in for a systemic nightmare, or perhaps I'm just being pessimistic?

[Immortalis]

 

I sympathize a lot with this sentiment. The question is: Can it be done? And if it's really complicated, will OE have time enough to make a decent xp system out of it?

 

 

Way I see it, it looks a lot easier to implement than "assign arbitrary xp values for every creature type, tally all the xp one can get in the different areas of the game with the current xp system, make sure that the creatures' xp value remains steadily lower than the quest xp totals, assign an amount of xp to the completion of certain milestones in the quest that makes up for the discrepancy between the current xp totals and the kill xp totals, then figure out a way to reward noncombat resolutions with the same amount of xp as killing would, even when the player chooses to slaughter his way through some encounters and avoid others, and on top of that, make double dipping impossible, oh and also reward the use of individual noncombat skills such as Mechanics, taking care that the same amount of xp can be gathered with every possible combination of noncombat skills one might have". Because essentially that's what the implementation of kill xp would require if you don't want to **** over those who would prefer to solve their problems in other ways than turning the opposition into cute red stains on the floor.

 

 

 

Just because you describe it in a long paragraph doesn't mean it's harder to implement then hand placing xp rewards for all the things people want.. Unless they have no systems or code in place for giving xp for the death of a creature.. this could take significant time to implement cleanly no matter which way they go..

 

If we are talking balance.. if they have some kind of formula for using creatures difficulty and level to determine the xp reward.. maybe update the quests and it could be feasible.

 

 

P.S.

I would like to note that we have stopped arguing that there is a problem.. and now people are arguing how to solve it..

Edited August 19, 2014 by Immortalis

[aluminiumtrioxid]

aluminiumtrioxid: It's not easy, but it has available predecessor systems that Josh & Co almost knows by heart, so I reckon if anybody can fix it it's them. On the other hand, that mix of several xp categories and xp triggers, which also criss-cross in a horrendous way, and you're in for a systemic nightmare, or perhaps I'm just being pessimistic?

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

Edited August 19, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Helm]

 

While I agree with the idea of getting most of the XP from completing quests or objectives, I think you should still get a little bit from defeating enemies. There will be times when you are just wandering or exploring and either get attacked or can't avoid combat when not actively working on a quest and I think you should still get some XP from surviving that. It doesn't have to be major, or much at all, but something.

 

Really, my objection to kill XP is primarily focused on dungeons and quests. Places where there are clear objectives to accomplish that enable multiple approaches. Get to the 3rd floor, stop the goblins from attacking the town, recover the diamond tiara of Cthulhu. Each of these could have paths of stealth, dialogue, environment, combat, or probably a mix. Each of these should generate an XP reward that is comparable to the others, while disallowing the optimal path double dip where you complete it one way (by stealth), then complete it the other way (by combat), for increased reward.

 

Yep. Let's say the beetles are a problem, and you can deal with them by either slaughtering them or removing them peacefully. With a bit of variation of course, having binary peaceful or violent outcomes to every quest can get rather boring after a while.

 

If the game had a system like that, then nobody would complain, because the beetles are now a challenge worthy of XP. This is what the proponents of combat xp have been saying all along.

[Jerky33]

 

I still don't understand why you can't award higher exp for solving quests peacefully.  Is it because you can do it peacefully, then kill the bad guys anyway?  I'm sure there is a solution to that problem that doesn't include taking out all combat experience.

 

Yes, that's the largest issue.

 

How about you just not award any exp for killing those specific enemies after the quest is completed?  And maybe no loot can be dropped from them either, not sure about that one.

[Immortalis]

 

 

I still don't understand why you can't award higher exp for solving quests peacefully.  Is it because you can do it peacefully, then kill the bad guys anyway?  I'm sure there is a solution to that problem that doesn't include taking out all combat experience.

 

Yes, that's the largest issue.

 

How about you just not award any exp for killing those specific enemies after the quest is completed?  And maybe no loot can be dropped from them either, not sure about that one.

 

 

 

Been saying this for 3 weeks.. *sigh*

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

P.S.

I would like to note that we have stopped arguing that there is a problem.. and now people are arguing how to solve it..

 

We certainly have the real experiences from the beta to thank for that!

[Sarex]

Do we even know how many quest will have multiple solutions? Aluminiumtrioxid makes it sound like every quest will have a non combat solution, that is something I very much doubt will be the case.

 

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

[Tale]

if people find doing that fun why police them.

Because, generally speaking, people don't find that fun, but they just do it anyway. People will take the path of least resistance or the path of most reward even if it's not the one they want to take. It's just how they operate. It's why these games don't include level 1 spells that can one shot the final boss with no prep. Because everyone would use it and then complain about how easy it is.

 

You don't see many people in these threads saying they actually really want to double dip to make huge XP minimal additional effort. The primary call for kill XP is that it gives them a constant sense of progression, it's a tradition, and it doesn't cause this issue where people don't get rewards for doing stuff. The double dip is largely seen as an acceptable drawback, not added fun.

[Jerky33]

 

 

 

I still don't understand why you can't award higher exp for solving quests peacefully.  Is it because you can do it peacefully, then kill the bad guys anyway?  I'm sure there is a solution to that problem that doesn't include taking out all combat experience.

 

Yes, that's the largest issue.

 

How about you just not award any exp for killing those specific enemies after the quest is completed?  And maybe no loot can be dropped from them either, not sure about that one.

 

 

 

Been saying this for 3 weeks.. *sigh*

 

I mean, it's such a logical solution...  maybe too logical?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

 

If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Do we even know how many quest will have multiple solutions? Aluminiumtrioxid makes it sound like every quest will have a non combat solution, that is something I very much doubt will be the case.

 

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

Even I don't approve of any Josh-bashing of yours (    ), I reckon these are very good points!   And add to that: Josh himself has already said that the game is very combat heavy, and this is certainly reflected in all the systems and abilities and what not.

Edited August 19, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Immortalis]

 

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

 

If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

 

 

 

It's not going to be "fairly easy".. dude seriously.. the scope of this game is huge don't be silly.. I'm sure Obs can do it but don't make it sound like a few weeks of work.. that's huge if they haven't planned it from the start.

[Helm]

 

That doesn't have to be universal kill XP. I agree with the premise. But it can be XP tied to that encounter as an objective.

 

Really, my objection to kill XP is primarily focused on dungeons and quests. Places where there are clear objectives to accomplish that enable multiple approaches. Get to the 3rd floor, stop the goblins from attacking the town, recover the diamond tiara of Cthulhu. Each of these could have paths of stealth, dialogue, environment, combat, or probably a mix. Each of these should generate an XP reward that is comparable to the others, while disallowing the optimal path double dip where you complete it one way (by stealth), then complete it the other way (by combat), for increased reward.

 

The only goal of this is to allow people to take a variety of approaches to challenges without seeing one as gigantically more beneficial than the rest. In that regard, challenges that only have one viable approach should still yield a reward. Which means if you find yourself stuck in a cave with shades and the only way out is to disincorporate their ectoplasm via stabbing, some XP to be gained would not be inappropriate.

 

Ok, I understand this, but my question is why should they care? I mean there is xp cap, so it's not like the people who don't double dip will lose out on anything and if people find doing that fun why police them. It's a single player game after all, must everything be sacrificed to the crucible of balance?

 

I get the feeling that Josh is trying to police the gamers...

 

Because double dipping for XP and relentless killing of NPCs gives Josh Sawyer terrible nightmares.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

if people find doing that fun why police them.

 

Because, generally speaking, people don't find that fun, but they just do it anyway.

 

 

Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept of someone with a principle of "after negotiating with someone, I don't turn back to murderize them, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath".

Edited August 19, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Immortalis]

 

 

if people find doing that fun why police them.

 

Because, generally speaking, people don't find that fun, but they just do it anyway.

 

 

Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept which doesn't include "I go back to kill those I've negotiated with, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath".

 

 

 

Even without kill-xp if your wiling to skip an entire dungeon with your maxed diplomacy you are short changing yourself of a huge area that was designed by obsidian, any potential treasures or enemy drops and possibly flavor or rolepaly text.

 

Is XP the only reason you do dungeons? Common.. your missing out stuff anyways.. don't blame kill-xp for your unhappiness at skipping content.

 

EDIT: I'v never killed NPC's or monsters of parlayed with in any IE game.. the level cap means theres no point trying to squeeze every xp possible.. seriously.. you hit cap long before the final boss.. theres no point.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Immortalis

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 

Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept of someone with a principle "after negotiating with someone, I don't turn back to murderize them, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath".

 

Couldn't this be fixed with some "successfully snuck past this encounter once"-tag/flag? And then the player gets rewarded just as much as the more murderous bunch? They will only get kill xp once, I mean, the critters are gone once dead, hehe.  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

 

If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

 

 

 

It's not going to be "fairly easy".. dude seriously.. the scope of this game is huge don't be silly.. I'm sure Obs can do it but don't make it sound like a few weeks of work.. that's huge if they haven't planned it from the start.

 

 

U w0t m8.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Couldn't this be fixed with some "successfully snuck past this encounter once"-tag/flag? And then the player gets rewarded just as much as the more murderous bunch? They will only get kill xp once, I mean, the critters are gone once dead, hehe.

 

 

Yes, it's fairly easily fixed, but the original question was "why is double dipping a problem at all", not "how can we solve this problem?"

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

 

I'm just saying it would be a lot easier to tally up the amount of quest xp you can gain on every map, single out especially challenging wilderness encounters and similar other possible small goals, take out a fraction of the area xp and assign them to the completion of those, then break up the quests to smaller milestones and distribute the remaining xp between the completion of said milestones.

 

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic.

 

If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

 

 

 

It's not going to be "fairly easy".. dude seriously.. the scope of this game is huge don't be silly.. I'm sure Obs can do it but don't make it sound like a few weeks of work.. that's huge if they haven't planned it from the start.

 

 

U w0t m8.

 

 

 

I'll take this as you just being religiously addicted to one side and ran out of logical things to say.. I never trolled you or paid you a diservice.. if your gonna **** post please take it to /b/ or the codex. Thanks.

 

EDIT: Fixed

 

 

 

Couldn't this be fixed with some "successfully snuck past this encounter once"-tag/flag? And then the player gets rewarded just as much as the more murderous bunch? They will only get kill xp once, I mean, the critters are gone once dead, hehe.

 

 

Yes, it's fairly easily fixed, but the original question was "why is double dipping a problem at all", not "how can we solve this problem?"

 

 

We never said this.. Double dipping can be a problem.. but munchkins will always find a way.. its not the biggest problem.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Immortalis

[Helm]

I still don't understand why you can't award higher exp for solving quests peacefully.  Is it because you can do it peacefully, then kill the bad guys anyway?  I'm sure there is a solution to that problem that doesn't include taking out all combat experience.

Of course there is a solution. Don't give players kill xp for murdering a quest giver after they have solved his quest peacefully. In other words, let the game emulates what a human DM would do.

Or just let the player do that anyway. Who cares what a player does in his own game. I have personally never killed quest givers, simply because I don't powergame, I rollplay.

[Sarex]

If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

 

By erratic I mean that there is no character progression for doing things you want, but only for the things the developers feel won't harm the ballance of the game. Or to put in more simply you don't get any instant satisfaction from the game.

 

 

Because, generally speaking, people don't find that fun, but they just do it anyway. People will take the path of least resistance or the path of most reward even if it's not the one they want to take. It's just how they operate. It's why these games don't include level 1 spells that can one shot the final boss with no prep. Because everyone would use it and then complain about how easy it is.

 

You don't see many people in these threads saying they actually really want to double dip to make huge XP minimal additional effort. The primary call for kill XP is that it gives them a constant sense of progression, it's a tradition, and it doesn't cause this issue where people don't get rewards for doing stuff. The double dip is largely seen as an acceptable drawback, not added fun.

 

But let's be honest, how many people double dipped in IE games? I never did, did you find yourself forced to go back and kill enemies? Also more importantly how much more xp could you really get for it,as far as I remember only something like one level worth.

 

I think that the problem is blown out of proportions.

 

Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept of someone with a principle of "after negotiating with someone, I don't turn back to murderize them, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath".

 

None of the IE games did this. The power curve was set that if you did all the quest (normally) the game would have been easy.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sarex

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 but the original question was "why is double dipping a problem at all", not "how can we solve this problem?"

This makes me think of Seinfeld and crisps, and you know it!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Even without kill-xp if your wiling to skip an entire dungeon with your maxed diplomacy you are short changing yourself of a huge area that was designed by obsidian, any potential treasures or enemy drops and possibly flavor or rolepaly text.

 

Is XP the only reason you do dungeons?

 

If I'm roleplaying a diplomat or a trickster or a scholar or a pampered noble who has no reason or intentions of getting to damp, cramped spaces where various monsters try to kill him/her just for the hell of it, then yes, the only reason for me to break character and go down is the fact that my character would be severely underleveled/geared if I skipped that content.

[IndiraLightfoot]

But let's be honest, how many people double dipped in IE games? I never did, did you find yourself forced to go back and kill enemies? Also more importantly how much more xp could you really get for it,as far as I remember only something like one level worth.

 

I think that the problem is blown out of proportions.

 

 

^This. And even more importantly, if a few did, who cares? Why not choose the path of least resistance, and Occam's Razor and all that, and just have some per encounter/per kill xp system?