Fighter's health

[Caerdon]

Good ideas, everyone! I definitely agree that it's way too early to arrive to any kind of conclusion, I was merely a bit concerned after all the videos. That said, if there's a problem, no harm in being prepared.

 

What I was thinking was that maybe a fighter could regenerate some health while he regenerates stamina, but only when it's the fighters own regeneration ability that does the healing, not potions, spells or anything else. Maybe a 2:1 ratio which would be further multiplied by the usual 4:1 stamina-to-health ratio, so every time he regenerates 8 stamina, he also regenerates 1 health.

 

This would mean that if the fighter takes lots of small hits that his own regeneration can handle, he would essentially have barbarian's stamina-to-health ratio. However, if he's badly injured and needs healing spells or potions, those would not return any health, so the more you have to rely on them, the more his effective stamina-to-health ratio would approach the usual 4:1.

 

So what that means is that now we have a fighter that can deal better with minor encounters where he only receives smaller hits and grazes, but this wouldn't really help him at all at dealing with more difficult, major encounters, where he'd probably need to rely on additional healing.

 

Obviously testing would be required, and like previously mentioned, it could very well be that there's really no need for any of this.

[MasterPrudent]

I think we need to remember that the fighter was drawing basically all of the agro and taking something like 75% of the damage done to the party in those combat encounters. Making him any tankier would mean that you could use him to soak up all the damage all of the time which would make combat encounters fairly trivial and result in the use of boring, static tactics. His current "fragility" means that you will have to chose between expending some camping supplies or switching your tactics up by protecting him a little more and using other characters on the front line.

Edited August 16, 2014 by MasterPrudent

[JDizzle420]

I'd also like to point out that the fighter wasn't using a shield in those streams. So his deflection wasn't as high as it could have been. I'm not sure how much of a deflection bonus shields provide, but I hope that it is balanced to make the decision whether to use one or to wield another axe a difficult one.

[Caerdon]

You're both right. We'll see soon how things really work. Ideally all party members will require rest roughly as often, and it seems likely that in more complicated encounters a single fighter can't draw all the attention, so in the long run damage is bound to be distributed a bit more evenly.

 

I'm not sure how much of a deflection bonus shields provide, but I hope that it is balanced to make the decision whether to use one or to wield another axe a difficult one.

 

I think that should generally be an easy decision. Only very specialized characters should be using two weapons at once. My opinion, of couse.

 

As an aside: do we know anything about dual-wielding mechanics in this game? I can't remember any updates discussing this...

[JDizzle420]

What I meant was that I hope shields aren't useless. I rarely used a shield in the IE games because it just didn't seem like the defensive bonuses outweighed the damage of dual wielding or 2 handed.

[Valorian]

I suspect shields will be too useful.

 

About fighter's health:

I'm not opposed to the idea of changing their sta./hlth. conversion rate or having them regenerate a percentage of health lost in the last combat encounter, post-combat (which is similar to changing the conversion rate, but less powerful because a better conversion rate is a stronger shield against dying from depleted health).

[Caerdon]

What I meant was that I hope shields aren't useless. I rarely used a shield in the IE games because it just didn't seem like the defensive bonuses outweighed the damage of dual wielding or 2 handed.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant as well In reality shields are extremely effective at protecting the wielder, in IE games you got, what, -2 AC or something? Ridiculous.

 

Dual-wielding should give you a bonuses to deflection (only against melee), accuracy and attack rate and a penalty to critical damage. Just as long as those bonuses are kept small enough to keep the shield the preferred choice in most cases.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, a developer who wants to make a nod to reality would have a hard time making shields too useful. Remember, in reality dual wielding isn't very useful at all, and you'd only want a two-handed weapon if your armor is super-heavy (and therefore aren't worried about blocking hits) or if you're in a specific formation and need the range.

[Valorian]

Combat balance and interesting choices > reality.

 

It shouldn't be: equip [ridiculous deflection bonus] on tank & win    VS    don't equip [ridiculous deflection bonus] on tank & lose

 

 

[Grand_Commander13]

It wouldn't be equipping a shield on the tank (since there wouldn't be a tank), it would be equipping one on everyone. In fact the "tank" (the one with the best armor) would be the one who needed the shield the least.

 

I don't see how the current unrealistic RPG systems let me make "interesting choices" anyway. High damage? Dual wielding. Tank? Sword and shield. Ranged? Bow. You select a role, then equip for it. It's still boring, there are just different item sets for each "role".

[Valorian]

It wouldn't be equipping a shield on the tank (since there wouldn't be a tank), it would be equipping one on everyone. In fact the "tank" (the one with the best armor) would be the one who needed the shield the least.

 

 

That's not how it works. Your best bet is to equip the front line person with thick armor and a shield (especially if the shield raises your deflection drastically) and to focus on offense with the rest of your party, hoping that the almighty shield and DT will last long enough while you go full offense with 5 people.

 

Naturally, if AI somehow notices that attacking the closest target is not always the best idea and figures out how to avoid engagement, then other people will start switching to (almighty) shields too.

[Caerdon]

Combat balance and interesting choices > reality.

 

It shouldn't be: equip [ridiculous deflection bonus] on tank & win    VS    don't equip [ridiculous deflection bonus] on tank & lose

 

1) I agree - to a degree. But I don't really see these as mutually exclusive, even if shield were the better choice in most cases.

 

2) A "tank" definitely needs something to stay alive. If a heavy armor is good enough, that's fine (and it would be fine in reality, but games like this tend to mix armors, shields, two-hanhded weapons etc. in a rather anachronistic way). Frankly, a dual-wielding tank doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Caerdon]

Also, I forgot that in this game shields incur a penalty to your attack rate and, in case of heavier shields, to your accuracy as well. I'm not too enthusiastic about that. You're already sacrificing offensive potential by not using two or two-handed weapons, and while I understand the concept behind it, I don't think it's even particularly realistic. In fact, because you can use your shield to defend against opponent's weapon, that leaves your own weapon free to attack, so your attack rate should go up (at least with bucklers and lighter shields).

 

Obviously game balance must be regarded as a whole before we can arrive to any conclusions, but...

[Valorian]

 They probably observed how powerful shields (coupled with high DT) are and thought of ways to counterbalance that. Still, the shield doesn't lose any of its defensive capabilities by slightly diminishing offense, so it preserves its cardinal purpose. It is not, I believe we can agree, a matter of being realistic (or not).

[Grand_Commander13]

 

It wouldn't be equipping a shield on the tank (since there wouldn't be a tank), it would be equipping one on everyone. In fact the "tank" (the one with the best armor) would be the one who needed the shield the least.

 

 

That's not how it works. Your best bet is to equip the front line person with thick armor and a shield (especially if the shield raises your deflection drastically) and to focus on offense with the rest of your party, hoping that the almighty shield and DT will last long enough while you go full offense with 5 people.

 

Naturally, if AI somehow notices that attacking the closest target is not always the best idea and figures out how to avoid engagement, then other people will start switching to (almighty) shields too.

 

 

I'm talking about in real combat, not in the game. In the game it's a simple multiplication problem that works exactly like you say: DR begets DR.

[Ondb]

The dev team should add real healing spells to game, which will restore health and not stamina. (maybe with longer casting time, or only out of combat spells true healing spells).

I know we dont have them because of lore, but this is really silly to force Resting because of low health front-line character

[Tartantyco]

The dev team should add real healing spells to game, which will restore health and not stamina. (maybe with longer casting time, or only out of combat spells true healing spells).

I know we dont have them because of lore, but this is really silly to force Resting because of low health front-line character

 

Is the reason why it's silly because you don't like it?

[Volourn]

." I rarely used a shield in the IE games because it just didn't seem like the defensive bonuses outweighed the damage of dual wielding or 2 handed."

 

Huh? Shields were awesome in the IE games.  It could amke the difference being hit and not being hit.

 

 

The 'lore' behind only resting heals your health is shakey. I have a funny feeling that people are gonna need to rest a lot. You should - if a game is balanced properly - be able to complete most dungeons without resting  or with big dungeons once or twice max. Not like in that video where he rested twice when he only had 3-4 battles. Or the silliness I hear about other games where people rested every battle or two. Resting should be a last resort of the desperate  or the foolish who didn't play well.

 

It'll be interesting to see how a skilled player leveled properly with good equipment handles these fights... Hmmm..

 

In conclusion, while this methos isn't my ideal I won't completely judge it success or fail I tell I experience it since I'm awesomesauce expert so I'll be able to go yay or nay.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Volourn

[Grand_Commander13]

." I rarely used a shield in the IE games because it just didn't seem like the defensive bonuses outweighed the damage of dual wielding or 2 handed."

 

Huh? Shields were awesome in the IE games.  It could amke the difference being hit and not being hit.

 

Something that gave you a +1 deflection bonus when your armor gave you a +50 could still make the difference between getting hit or not. The problem with the Infinity Engine was that since health means nothing except for the fight you're in, and healing magic is readily available, and offense is more important, doubling your damage would be more important than using a shield, even if your armor class was already so high that the shield would halve your chance to be hit.

[Sezneg]

." I rarely used a shield in the IE games because it just didn't seem like the defensive bonuses outweighed the damage of dual wielding or 2 handed."

 

Huh? Shields were awesome in the IE games.  It could amke the difference being hit and not being hit.

 

 

The 'lore' behind only resting heals your health is shakey. I have a funny feeling that people are gonna need to rest a lot. You should - if a game is balanced properly - be able to complete most dungeons without resting  or with big dungeons once or twice max. Not like in that video where he rested twice when he only had 3-4 battles. Or the silliness I hear about other games where people rested every battle or two. Resting should be a last resort of the desperate  or the foolish who didn't play well.

 

It'll be interesting to see how a skilled player leveled properly with good equipment handles these fights... Hmmm..

 

In conclusion, while this methos isn't my ideal I won't completely judge it success or fail I tell I experience it since I'm awesomesauce expert so I'll be able to go yay or nay.

 

There's a whole lot of personal preference in this post being dressed up like fact.

 

Balance is found in the relationship between resting supplies, and need to rest - how many places to rest are there?  How often can you use them safely or at all (consumables needed?).

 

Whether this is tuned so that resting is rare, or tuned so that resting is more common is a preference.  Both can be balanced.

 

As for fighter health - I think we're drawing some conclusions based on limited knowledge.  These are not even mid-geared characters, and certainly not utilizing skills/items to minimize being hit.  It's similar to how early level D&D characters often have to rest every few encounters... with the primarily difference being how many hits they can take.  POE characters take quite a few hits due to how combat is calculated - but the health damage adds up and requires resting.  Low level D&D character is hit infrequently - however he cannot sustain many hits - and often has to rest after a handful of encounters.  The only difference here to my eyes is that there are more hits taking place.  if anything, a level 1 POE fighter could be said to be 'more sturdy' than a level 1 D&D fighter if we are basing this on how many hits they can take.

[Volourn]

Shields give you more than +1 to your ace. They gave as much as +3 (for the big ones) and as much as +5  with magical oines. That's +8 which is the equivelant of non maghical full plate. Not to mention the other benefits a magical shield could bring. Yeah, you do less damage but you can last a lot longer.

 

 

"The problem with the Infinity Engine was that since health means nothing except for the fight you're in,"

 

How so unless you rest between every single battle? 

 

 

"healing magic is readily available"

 

That's true to a point but most healing spells ( except heal spell obviously) is of little use in tougher battles when you got enemies tht if they hit you they hit you hard. There are advanatges to all three main melee styles. The best party would have a character with two weapon style, weapon + shield, and a 2 hander. Best of all worlds. Then you can use your weapon and shield to draw the fire.

 

 

"It's similar to how early level D&D characters often have to rest every few encounters."

 

That's an awful way to play DnD. I certainly didn't rest every 2-3 battles in BG.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Volourn

[Immortalis]

Shields give you more than +1 to your ace. They gave as much as +3 (for the big ones) and as much as +5  with magical oines. That's +8 which is the equivelant of non maghical full plate. Not to mention the other benefits a magical shield could bring. Yeah, you do less damage but you can last a lot longer.

 

 

"The problem with the Infinity Engine was that since health means nothing except for the fight you're in,"

 

How so unless you rest between every single battle? 

 

 

"healing magic is readily available"

 

That's true to a point but most healing spells ( except heal spell obviously) is of little use in tougher battles when you got enemies tht if they hit you they hit you hard. There are advanatges to all three main melee styles. The best party would have a character with two weapon style, weapon + shield, and a 2 hander. Best of all worlds. Then you can use your weapon and shield to draw the fire.

 

One caveat to your logic though. AI either needs to respect the same logic you do and attack that shield character (or whatever your front line guy is) OR.. that shield wearing warrior needs a way to draw fire.

Attacks of Opportunity are a good start but you still can't gurantee he will be the only that gets hit among your squishy mellee.. IE basically just attacked the first thing they saw before the AI kicked in to pepper your mages with arrows..

 

EDIT:

Before the IE critics show up with their pitch forks.. I don't think IE's AI was good in any way.. and I would definately love to see more mechanics around you choosing who takes the fire.. just throwing out my opinion on the "shield hauling dwarf"

Edited August 18, 2014 by Immortalis

[Volourn]

That's easy. Just have your shield carrier 'lead the charge'  (be a few feet in front) and have your mages way back. This helps keep 90% (obviously not all will come toward him) but it largely works. Espicially against tough enemies like dragons. A well equipped shield warrior can even have someone like Firkragg miss him.

[Immortalis]

That's easy. Just have your shield carrier 'lead the charge'  (be a few feet in front) and have your mages way back. This helps keep 90% (obviously not all will come toward him) but it largely works. Espicially against tough enemies like dragons. A well equipped shield warrior can even have someone like Firkragg miss him.

Can we confirm this is how PoE will work?

 

I already stated I know this is how IE works.

[Pray]

I actually really enjoy the Health/Endurance mechanic with limited resting resources, because it forces you to strategize not only on a per fight basis, but on a per-journey basis. But how this actually plays out in practice (will i just leave the dungeon and return to a town before finish my quest mid-way through?) is yet to be seen.

 

I think the idea here is excellent, but how it's implemented, and what forces and circumstances you are required to play this mechanic around will ultimately determine how fun, silly, or unique and driving a mechanic this really is.