Fighter's health

[Caerdon]

After seeing all the recent gameplay presentations, there's one thing that keeps bugging me.

 

Fighters are great front-line combatants. They can tie up multiple enemies, and in any given encounter, they can take a lot of punishment, both because of their great defences and because of their regenerating stamina.

 

However, because of their regenerating stamina, and because of them getting much of the attention, it seems to me that fighters tend to lose a huge portion of their health during even a relatively easy fight. This could be a concern.

 

In IE games, you generally needed rest after a big fight because your spellcasters were out of spells - but your fighters could go on for a long time, as long as they received healing in some form. But in PoE many spells are per-encounter and you can only regain health by resting, and as a result, the tables have been turned: it's the fighters that require rest after every battle. Unless we're talking about really major battles, I think fighters should be durable enough to handle two or three encounters.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure how exactly to feel about this. But to me, fighters don't seem all that durable after all. I really like the stamina-health mechanic, but I think that in order for it to really fulfill its purpose, something should be done with fighters. Maybe they should also be able to regenerate a portion of their health when they regenerate their stamina. Maybe they should have barbarian-like thick skin, even if not to the same degree. I really don't know.

 

For reference, in this video the fighter is almost dead after fighting a few beetles - and the paladin isn't doing well either: http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/558125934

 

What are your thoughts on this? Does it seem to you like fighters are doing the job they're meant to do? Should something be done about all this?

 

Of course, it isn't long until we get our hands on the beta, at which point we're all be a bit more enlightened... but who could wait that long?

Edited August 15, 2014 by Caerdon

[Marky]

I've been wondering about this too. I imagine the increased deflection that a fighter gets - especially with a shield - is supposed to be enough.

I guess we'll see when the beta comes out.

[GreyFox]

I agree with your observation and also made a similar post in another thread about healing.

 

Perhaps they could do a daily power for Fighters like healing surges in 4E...

Soul Surge - heals some hps 

 

But yea even when doing what he's supposed to be doing (soaking damage) he was only able to soak like two fights and the map wasn't nearly explored.

[Ganrich]

Yeah, this kind of made me curious as well.  I would also like to add that the Paladin seemed really squishy by comparison.  So much so that it made me worry that a Fighter may be somewhat of a requirement.  Without a Fighter... I guess a control heavy group could succeed.  I am just surprised there isn't another Tanky type class... unless I am missing someone.  Perhaps a Paladin, with a healer working double time, could get by?  I am a bit perplexed all in all.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Yes, the Fighter's stamina regeneration is a double-edged blade and I wouldn't be surprised if that is deliberate. It forces you to put a bit more thought into when and how to employ your Fighter.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Caerdon]

Yes, the Fighter's stamina regeneration is a double-edged blade and I wouldn't be surprised if that is deliberate. It forces you to put a bit more thought into when and how to employ your Fighter.

 

Well, I can understand double-edged blades. But fighters are meant to be frontline stalwarts, and it seems silly to me if they were something you tend to keep in reserve and only call in when you really need them.

 

"Overall, fighters are designed to be low-maintenance, reliable, and long-lived even in marathon battles." That's the official word... and well, that's what they are in any single battle, but overall, it looks like they're the most high-maintenance class in the long run.

[Pray]

The paladin is using level 1 gear in a level 5 zone - that's already been said -

 

The player seems to be playing sub-optimally. If anything the difficulty needs to be toned down only slightly, perhaps moreso on easy.

[Utukka]

I understand the concern but as others have stated...even in the video where he beat the ogre, he didn't seem to be putting in much effort towards optimal play. As I'm sure you are aware...anytime combat is prolonged, the outcome is going to be worse. Very complex issue that is even more convoluted because of the lack of details that we have towards general abilities/traits etc available and lack of knowledge on which abilities(and how often) will be available on a per encounter basis.

 

That all aside....it would obviously be very annoying if you had to rest after the majority of fights(for any reason)...I imagine they will do a better job than that. The fact that they have per encounter abilities already tells me they realize the issues that arose in games such as Baldurs Gate and are working on a elegant solution to it.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Utukka

[ReyVagabond]

All I can say is Testing will tells us if it needs tweaking. Fighters regenerate Stamina faster, that means that they can engage in combat more often! So because of that his health will be more exposed the longer the fight is fight.

So considering he will receive most of the damage in any fight, it makes sense that you have to take care of them.

Most of the other classes when they are in a fight they need to disengage and be in deep trouble.

So I think its fine.

Edited August 15, 2014 by ReyVagabond

[JDizzle420]

I was also concerned about this. Another thing that I absolutely hated was when I saw the paladin die because his health hit 0 even though he had around 75% of his stamina left. I think the longevity issue can be helped if front line characters stop taking health damage when they get down to 1 health as long as they have stamina left. After the character runs out of stamina, if they only have 1 health remaining, they should die. And perhaps characters could take more stamina damage once their health reaches 1.

 

It may just have been because the characters were wearing level 1 armor, but it did seem very odd. I guess we will just have to test it for ourselves when we get our hands on the beta.

[Gfted1]

Maybe it was just how he was playing. It looked like there were a few ways to mitigate Health loss. I know I saw the Paladin use Lay on Hands and the Priest fired off a couple Mass Heals, but I cant remember if the Priest spells restored Stamina or Health.

[JDizzle420]

Maybe it was just how he was playing. It looked like there were a few ways to mitigate Health loss. I know I saw the Paladin use Lay on Hands and the Priest fired off a couple Mass Heals, but I cant remember if the Priest spells restored Stamina or Health.

 

The only way to restore health is by resting. The heals restore stamina.

[Gfted1]

The little red bar on the left was Stamina and the main portrait area was Health, right? I could have sworn I saw something replenish the Health area but I could definitely be wrong.

[JDizzle420]

The little red bar on the left was Stamina and the main portrait area was Health, right? I could have sworn I saw something replenish the Health area but I could definitely be wrong.

 

The green bar on the left is health. The red that fills up over the character's face is stamina.

Edited August 15, 2014 by JDizzle420

[Grand_Commander13]

That always throws me off, too. I see why they did it, but the portrait slowly filling up with red feels like it's your character's lifeblood slipping away.

[Lephys]

Giving the Fighter the ability to replenish a bit of Health after a fight is over seems like a good option. That way, they're not regenerating Health during the battle (they're still limited by a static Health pool during the fight), but you still mitigate the "you're probably going to take 1,000 more hits than anyone else during battle" issue with low health after every fight.

 

*shrug*. There are other options, but I think this one should go on the list, at least.

[JDizzle420]

I think having fighters replenish some health after an encounter is an excellent idea. A set percentage health regeneration, even as low as maybe 10%, after every fight would go a long way.

Edited August 16, 2014 by JDizzle420

[Bazy]

I think having fighters replenish some health after an encounter is an excellent idea. A set percentage health regeneration, even as low as maybe 10%, after every fight would go a long way.

If I go kill a rabbit in the forest should he regen health just because he engaged in combat?

[Lephys]

If I go kill a rabbit in the forest should he regen health just because he engaged in combat?

Nope. Good point. We'd have to restrict it to lost health, only, or it would get ridiculous.

[JDizzle420]

 

I think having fighters replenish some health after an encounter is an excellent idea. A set percentage health regeneration, even as low as maybe 10%, after every fight would go a long way.

If I go kill a rabbit in the forest should he regen health just because he engaged in combat?

 

 

Well I don't expect a dead rabbit to regen health under any circumatanses. Unless we're talking about a zombie rabbit.

 

I'm just trying to think of ways to help manage fighter health loss. If fighters are supposed to be "steadfast and stalwart" as well as "low maintenance" then we shouldn't have to rest after every encounter solely because the party fighter's health is too low. In the IE games I would usually rest because one of my high maintenance party members was out of spells.

 

I'm almost certain that this isn't the way that the game is meant to be played. It is more than likely that the problem was with the characters' equipment as well as Adam's less than stellar performance rather than a problem with the game's mechanics.

 

I'm still a bit concerned with what i've seen so far.

[JDizzle420]

 

If I go kill a rabbit in the forest should he regen health just because he engaged in combat?

Nope. Good point. We'd have to restrict it to lost health, only, or it would get ridiculous.

 

Yeah, I'd assumed we were talking about regenerating some of the health actually lost in that particular encounter.

[Lephys]

Me too. I was thinking of literally regaining health. Not just receiving a burst of health every time battle technically ends. BUT, I didn't say that, and didn't really even think about that until Brazy's example. So, constructive nonetheless,

[curryinahurry]

It's hard to tell from videos like these because the characters seem to not be optimized, and Adam wasn't being terribly efficient in his play-style.  That said, I'm not sure regenerating health is the first option to make fighters more durable.  One thing I noticed in the second Gamescon video was that the Dwarven Fighter was doing relatively little damage;4 to 8 points with criticals ranging from 8 to 12.  For a 5th level character those numbers seem awfully low...in fact, they seem low for even a first level character.

 

Based on the damage the beetles were dealing out, one would expect a reasonably equipped front line combatant to be doing 15 to 30 points of damage per attack without specials and criticals.  Also it wasn't just the fighter, but also the rogue and paladin were having difficulty generating any meaningful damage.  

 

The concern this brings up, is that equipment might play an over-important role in determining character build viability.  It's hard to know at thisa point, but it's something I'll difinitely be looking at in the beta

[Bazy]

It's hard to tell from videos like these because the characters seem to not be optimized, and Adam wasn't being terribly efficient in his play-style.  That said, I'm not sure regenerating health is the first option to make fighters more durable.  

This. Almost no gear, no enchants, only 5 party members, no food buffs/consumables etc. were used in demonstration. 

 

Also if you made this a "fighter" specific ability you practically force people to use a fighter as the tank for every encounter. 

 

The ratio of health to stamina loss may benefit from an adjustment. A simpler solution and one that could apply to all classes. Instead of regening health after combat for some magical reason, why not just adjust the ratio to be more "balanced?" 

Edited August 16, 2014 by Bazy

[JDizzle420]

Good insight, Bazy. I must concede the point that such an exclusive fighter ability would be a bit OP.  We really just need to wait until we get our hands on the beta.