Experience Point Mechanics - Fighting Enemies

[Grand_Commander13]

I just hope they won't be stubborn and are willing to change it for the expansion or the next game, if it really does turn out to be a bad decision.

 

It won't turn out to be a bad decision. There might be a few people who complain about it, but most people will enjoy the game, and even enjoy the fact that they don't have to seek out and destroy all enemies on the map just because they want experience points.

 

The system has been used in other games before, and works just fine.

[Amentep]

As we all know the easy way is not always the best way. I sympathize with Obs because I know they are on a limited budget, ie. time schedule, but if anything needed to be complex in this game it was the xp system and the way quests are solved. In my opinion it would have been worth doing the separate xp reward system and investing time in making it work. I know people here are of the opinion that story trumps all other aspects of the game, but that simply isn't true and wasn't the case with the games they are trying to succeed.

Well, I'm not entirely convinced it couldn't be the best way (neither convinced it is); its hard to say without seeing it work. I'm keeping an open mind, I guess, and hopefully for the best.

[Immortalis]

 

I just hope they won't be stubborn and are willing to change it for the expansion or the next game, if it really does turn out to be a bad decision.

 

It won't turn out to be a bad decision. There might be a few people who complain about it, but most people will enjoy the game, and even enjoy the fact that they don't have to seek out and destroy all enemies on the map just because they want experience points.

 

The system has been used in other games before, and works just fine.

 

 

Not only is this just your opinion.. You haven't offered any proof or facts to back up your statements. "A few people" I think is a pretty large understatement.

[Grand_Commander13]

I can't offer up a citation for what the future holds, I can just say "other games have done this" for why it will be fine, and "people can whine about anything" for why there will still be a few grumblers despite it not affecting the large majority of players' enjoyment.

 

Sure, there will always be That Guy who thinks that since even mulitplayer-only shooters have switched over to doping the player with experience points every time he gets a kill that it's mandatory to enjoy a game, but shooters were just as compelling before this was added. Not only will the grinders have the extra loot rewards from exploration making combat feel meaningful, but if I had to make a guess the exploration itself will feel cool and rewarding.

[Immortalis]

Sure, there will always be That Guy who thinks that since even mulitplayer-only shooters have switched over to doping the player with experience points every time he gets a kill that it's mandatory to enjoy a game, but shooters were just as compelling before this was added.

 

Okay sorry.. I thought you actually read this thread.. I see you're just talking out your ass, no offense. I won't correct you anymore.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Immortalis

[Grand_Commander13]

I have read the thread, to the point where I realize that pointing out how other games do objective experience just fine is constantly ignored in favor of Chicken Little "but but but the combat is meaningless!" stammering, and largely pointless. I only persist out of pettiness, so I can be on-record as being correct when nobody cares about your Worst Possible Thing.

[Volourn]

"Shadowrun Returns is a combat-focused RPG with no combat XP. It has many problems, but XP mechanics are not among them (IMO as always)."

 

SRR is literally a linear mission based RPG. It makes sense in that one to get xp only for completing said missions. The comparison is fubar.

 

 

"Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is very combat oriented rpg, which don't have xp from combat."

 

Yeah, and it hurt the game. I remember just running past battles because I found it a waste of time since there was absolutely no reason to fight.

 

In conclusion, it made sense in SRR for mission based xp but not BL. Two different games.

 

 

"they're not RPGs anyway -and- most of them usually aren't advertised as spiritual successors to the Infinity engine games either. (for some reason, this utterly relevant point keeps getting forgotten)"

 

Don't be a grognard. Mr. Sawyer loathes grognards even while pimping the game to those who loved the IE games. He picks and chooses what is worthy of the past games and then insults those who disagree with him.

 

I'm personally all for new things and I'm not even dead set against mission based xp when it is logical. It made since in ME2 and SRR. It does not make sense in BL or PE.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure our why defeating the ogre (through dialogue or combat) is worthy of xp but not beating the beetles (by combat or other method) isn't? Why? Because an npc told you to do it? Because it's part of a 'mission'? Come on... so, to get xp, I have to be a slave to some random npc? L0L

 

AGAIN, why is the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles?

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

"Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is very combat oriented rpg, which don't have xp from combat."

 

Yeah, and it hurt the game. I remember just running past battles because I found it a waste of time since there was absolutely no reason to fight.

 

In conclusion, it made sense in SRR for mission based xp but not BL. Two different games.

 

Cramming the game full of filler combat is what didn't make sense for Bloodlines, not the lack of combat xp. (Seriously, Kindred don't do that!)

 

Building the plot in a way that a certain NPC getting impersonated is supposed to be a Big Reveal when Obfuscate 3 (accessible even to starting characters) lets you do exactly that in the tabletop didn't help either.

[Valorian]

 Mr. Sawyer loathes grognards even while pimping the game to those who loved the IE games. He picks and chooses what is worthy of the past games and then insults those who disagree with him.

 

 

 

Just your imagination. Josh Sawyer is polite, tolerant and a pleasant person to have a conversation with. I have no reason to believe he doesn't possess these qualities in RL too.

 

This doesn't mean he's never made an unfortunate decision or accepted an undesirable design choice advocated by other people.

[Volourn]

He calls people grognards. That's not a compliment. It's meant as an insult.

 

Anyways, back on topic so things don't get too personal.  Why is the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles? They are an obstacle to overcome so the PC should be rewarded for doing so.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Volourn

[Immortalis]

 

"Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is very combat oriented rpg, which don't have xp from combat."

 

Yeah, and it hurt the game. I remember just running past battles because I found it a waste of time since there was absolutely no reason to fight.

 

In conclusion, it made sense in SRR for mission based xp but not BL. Two different games.

 

Cramming the game full of filler combat is what didn't make sense for Bloodlines, not the lack of combat xp. (Seriously, Kindred don't do that!)

 

Building the plot in a way that a certain NPC getting impersonated is supposed to be a Big Reveal when Obfuscate 3 (accessible even to starting characters) lets you do exactly that in the tabletop didn't help either.

 

 

I still don't think this proves non xp combat works.. I think it proves an RPG can be decent without a focus on combat.. Bloodlines is a very different game then the IE games.

 

 

 

 

 Mr. Sawyer loathes grognards even while pimping the game to those who loved the IE games. He picks and chooses what is worthy of the past games and then insults those who disagree with him.

 

 

 

Just your imagination. Josh Sawyer is polite, tolerant and a pleasant person to have a conversation with. I have no reason to believe he doesn't possess these qualities in RL too.

 

This doesn't mean he's never made an unfortunate decision or accepted an undesirable design choice advocated by other people.

 

 

I wouldn't call Josh Sawyer rude.. He definately has a calm and logical demeanor.. but he does have tunnel vision when it comes to ideas he doesn't agree with or feels he has solved.. and his defense of these ideas can be pretty brash sometimes.. You might need to buy a SomethingAwful account to see the real gems.. Assuming you don't have one already.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Immortalis

[Valorian]

He calls people grognards. That's not a compliment. It's meant as an insult.

 

 

Oooh, this is such a huge insult...   People will have psychological scars forever.

[Volourn]

Point. Not Found.

 

Still, the question remains: Why is the ogre worthy of xp but the beetles not? Why so anti beetle? Why so pro slavery and antif reedom since yout hink players should only get rewarded if they do what npcs tell them to do?

[Grand_Commander13]

Still, the question remains: Why is the ogre worthy of xp but the beetles not? Why so anti beetle? Why so pro slavery and antif reedom since yout hink players should only get rewarded if they do what npcs tell them to do?

 

You've had this question answered several times. Maybe go read one of those replies again.

 

Also, since when is grognard an insult? In the tabletop community, people refer to themselves as grognards.

[Tartantyco]

Well, it's a good thing that this thread has now become a discussion about Josh Sawyer's personality.

[PrimeJunta]

his defense of these ideas can be pretty brash sometimes

 

Entirely unlike the universally calm, positive, and humble people posting on this forum, for example.

[Stun]

Well, it's a good thing that this thread has now become a discussion about Josh Sawyer's personality.

He defined us as Irrational way back on Page 1. It took 14 pages, but we've finally returned the favor lol

 

In any case, I admire Josh a lot. 95% of the time whenever he opens his mouth brilliant things come out. It is a given that PoE is going to be a real demonstration of a bunch of Josh's gaming philosophies. We'll see how everything turns out. I'm betting he's just as nervous as we are excited.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

What happens if I'm NOT ON AN OBJECTIVE? Josh said this game will focus heavily on exploration. That means that we should be able to enter a map, and start exploring it. So NO, I'm NOT ok with losing out on XP simply because I decided to clear out that map before getting some "objective" to "go-there-and-do-this". In *my* situation, the enemies I encounter are not "in between me and any objective"....except for maybe my objective to gain combat experience by combatting them.

An objective isn't something you're ON. You don't get sent on an objective. It's just something you can do that's directly relevant to your particular adventuring playthrough of the narrative. It could be discover the location of some ruins, or kill something, or find the source of the such-and-such infestation, etc.

 

So, unless you're exploring an entire map in which the dev team who decided, from the get-go, to base their entire XP system on objectives simply didn't designate a single thing in the entire map as an objective, you're never not "on an objective."

 

Methinks this is what people don't get. And why 50% of people keep slipping into saying "quest XP," etc.

 

Apologies if this was already said. This thread jumped like 4 pages in a day, and I've been reading threads all day like crazy, trying to catch up.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Lephys

[Tartantyco]

It's going to be fun watching the XP-for-kills crowd not explore anything when the backer beta starts because "it's not worth it anymore".

[Stun]

It's going to be fun watching the XP-for-kills crowd not explore anything when the backer beta starts because "it's not worth it anymore".

Straw man.

 

I've already stated that when the game is fresh and new, XP (for anything) won't matter, to me at least, because it will still invoke wanderlust and pure excitement. MY concern is the game's long term appeal. 1 year from now, when I'm on my 5th playthrough, will I still enjoy engaging in combat (like I STILL do with games like BG2 and IWD)?

[Lephys]

I'm pretty sure it was just a statement. For it to be a straw man, he'd have to be attributing it directly to someone's argument, which he did not do.

[Stun]

I'm a member of the XP for kills crowd. Check

I have argued that no XP for kills might cause me to eventually not engage in combat because it won't be worth it. Check.

Someone is claiming that due to the above, I will not explore the backer beta because I won't think it's worth it. Check.

 

Straw man? Check.

 

Lets not defend stupid, lephys.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Tartantyco]

If you're only exploring and fighting for XP, then you're not really exploring or fighting, are you? You are just performing actions necessary for the acquisition of XP. If you like the fighting, you'll continue to like fighting, XP has no impact on that.

[Stun]

If you're only exploring and fighting for XP,

I'm not. Nor have I ever once advocated such a moronic playstyle/mindset ever on this thread or any other. You have misunderstood my argument consistently. Allow me to reduce it down to the simplest possible bottom line terms. Ok. Remember how BG1, BG2, IWD, IWD2 and PS:T handled exploration and XP distribution? THAT is how I prefer PoE to handle thngs.

 

Note: By "handle things", I mean the base system itself. I, of course, eagerly welcome Obsidian's stated goal of widely expanding its quest-objective system.

 

Hope that clears things up.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

If you're only exploring and fighting for XP, then you're not really exploring or fighting, are you? You are just performing actions necessary for the acquisition of XP. If you like the fighting, you'll continue to like fighting, XP has no impact on that.

Now that's just silly. Xp ingratiates the fighting by making you feel like the fight is meaningful. Xp certainly can have an impact on that. I'm not opposed to objective-xp, but I think this point is nonsense.