BruceVC Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I'll be honest with you but there are several things with your post I don't like, I find it condescending and borderline sexist. I'll go into detail below. The reality is I don't think you meant to be offensive but that's how its coming across Why describe her as half-Asian, and then say you are not sure about her ethnicity ? Just say a female commentator like you would describe any male gaming reviewer Is it unusual for female gamers to play Mass Effect? What's unusual about that What is the definition of stripper makeup? Is this something that female gaming reviewers often wear? Do female gaming reviewers often wear revealing and tight clothes? What is your definition of doing everything " terribly right"... If there is a female gaming reviewer that is wearing tight clothes and makeup does this automatically mean we should dismiss her perspective? Does this mean we don't take what they say seriously because they happen to be really attractive? Do we only take female gaming reviewers seriously if they don't dare display there sexuality or are confident as females and what they choose to wear? 1) maybe he consider half-asians more attractive - nothing sexist or racist 2) he write its unusual game not, unusual for girl to play it 3) oh cmon, you can tell stripper/hooker from common 'make-up' girl by looks and to be honest, do you prepare make up, style your hairs, suit up etc. before you start playing any game? 4) those which want to attract guys more by looks then what they are saying - yes (as in all media business) 5) probably enjoyed her lets playing, good comments, good work with software, entertaining etc Cmon Bruce, no need to look for white knight opportunity everywhere My opinion has got nothing to do with white knighting, my point is much broader than that. Its about the intentional and unintentional bias and judgement many of us seem to pass on women when they have role in an industry that is deemed by many as traditionally male dominated. Women seemed to be held to a different standard and criticized on this standard. And the reality is most of the time this criticism in unfounded and is really based on the fact people don't like changes to the status quo around gender representation on many levels in society So lets deal with something relevant to this discussion. Female gaming reviewers. You guys have brought to my attention a possible problem which I want to discuss. It seems that there are groups of female gaming reviewers who use stripper makeup and tight revealing clothes as a strategy to discuss and review games when in fact they don't have any insight or credible knowledge of a particular game Can you provide links and some examples of this sordid behaviour, this is obviously very important to the discussion? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Monte Carlo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Bruce, you are being a d1ck. Please accept it. The post you attacked was utterly reasonable and only in Bruce-world could it be seen as offensive. Man up. Or is that sexist? 5
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 My opinion has got nothing to do with white knighting, my point is much broader than that. Its about the intentional and unintentional bias and judgement many of us seem to pass on women when they have role in an industry that is deemed by many as traditionally male dominated. Women seemed to be held to a different standard and criticized on this standard. And the reality is most of the time this criticism in unfounded and is really based on the fact people don't like changes to the status quo around gender representation on many levels in society So lets deal with something relevant to this discussion. Female gaming reviewers. You guys have brought to my attention a possible problem which I want to discuss. It seems that there are groups of female gaming reviewers who use stripper makeup and tight revealing clothes as a strategy to discuss and review games when in fact they don't have any insight or credible knowledge of a particular game Can you provide links and some examples of this sordid behaviour, this is obviously very important to the discussion? Well I am not there to support any side of that conflict. I dont watch any female game reviewer as far as I know. And I didnt suggest that they dont have any insight or creditable knoweladge. I just point out that womens really some time use their 'weapons' to attract atention which they would probably not get otherwise (especialy in male dominant field) and profit on it. Its reverse sexism I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
IndiraLightfoot Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 "You, sir, just took quite a brucing!" Monte and Bruce are sometimes like Spy vs Spy in Mad Magazine. Absolutely fantastic! 2 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Bruce, you are being a d1ck. Please accept it. The post you attacked was utterly reasonable and only in Bruce-world could it be seen as offensive. Man up. Or is that sexist? Yes it is! man/women/it up! I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
Monte Carlo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Since when was strippers playing videogames a bad thing? Everyone needs a hobby. 1
BruceVC Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Several weeks ago, I was browsing twitch for some interesting channels and found a channel of an half-asian (maybe ... wasn't quite sure) girl playing some pretty unusual games (like Portal or Mass Effect). She was definitely good-looking, but delivered a lot more in-style of what you would expect from a real commentator and let's player. There was no camera window (just when she selected games or talked freely she switched over to camera mode), no tight clothes or revealing dresses. She didn't have stripper make-up or told private backstories to make guys drool. She was just there, playing games, commentating and being a fun and nice person. I had several good laughs about her snarky comments. It was enjoyable! And then I looked at the view counter. She didn't even have more than 100 viewers, despite doing everything terribly right. Occasionally, someone joined the channel and posted something like "show your ****!". She never responded and those people left soon after. commentators like her go down between the masses of camgirls like kaceytron. I wish they wouldn't be put into the same category. I wish there was a search option for channels of "real" female streamers. No I reject the accusation that I am being unreasonable Zwiebelchen made a point that he found a female gaming reviewer that was really good, but its the reason he gave that she was so good that bothers me. He said she didn't rely on sexual innuendo, tight clothes and stripper make-up. The suggestion is that there are female gaming reviewers that rely on this to be recognised. I asked for examples of female gaming reviewers who follow this clearly "unacceptable" approach to gaming reviews. So I need examples if that's what people think or this to me is just a way to dismiss and undermine the contribution that female gaming reviewers make 2 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
PrimeJunta Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 A load of steaming PC merde.... 3 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I just realise one example (dont know how good) Pewdiepie (which I dont like) got that 'gaming' show. And he introduce his girlfriend in his show. From what I saw she is not 'gamer' as you and I probably are. But still she manage to capitalise on her looks and connection to well known youtuber to start her own show (I am even not sure if its about games). questions are: 1) do you think she would have same amount of views if she is not good looking? 2) do you think she dont know what advatages she have if she is good looking and connected to most viewed youtuber? 3) do you think that girls dont want to look attractive to get atttention of males? 4) do you think that they dont capitalise on that fact? I would love to supply you link to stripper looking girl letsplayer but as I stated, I dont search for that thing but I am completely sure that they are out there I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
Monte Carlo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Bruce, you love demanding evidence when someone posts something that offends your ever-delicate sensitivities, yet you seem incapable or unable to produce any of your own. If you don't like what the guy is saying why not ignore him? Have you ever, even for a moment, considered that you might be suffering from "I'm-a-precious-snowflake" syndrome? 4
IndiraLightfoot Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Chilloutman: All that applies to Pewdiepie as well (I like him), and you, and all males and females and whatever genders too. Just look at history, look at society now. No need to zero in on girls specifically. I can say lots of critical things about the bizarre advatanges of looks, or nepotism, or what not, but that's another story. 2 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Chilloutman: All that applies to Pewdiepie as well (I like him), and you, and all males and females and whatever genders too. Just look at history, look at society now. No need to zero in on girls specifically. I can say lots of critical things about the bizarre advatanges of looks, or nepotism, or what not, but that's another story. Ah sure, I didnt want to imply that this is somehow restricted to internetz opr girls only. I am hot looking as well, but I dont capitalise on it . Point is that if main audience are males than good looking girl can get you more attention then other person which exceed that girl in other areas. Edited July 31, 2014 by Chilloutman I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
BruceVC Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Bruce, you love demanding evidence when someone posts something that offends your ever-delicate sensitivities, yet you seem incapable or unable to produce any of your own. If you don't like what the guy is saying why not ignore him? Have you ever, even for a moment, considered that you might be suffering from "I'm-a-precious-snowflake" syndrome? If having an issue or disagreeing with people that make unsubstantiated and unhelpful comments around issues like gender representation means I am a "precious snowflake " that's fine for me. It won't change my perspective on this Let me give you another example, what would you think if there was a Mexican gaming reviewer and I made a comment that was well meant but came across as "hey guys, I came across this half-Latino ( I think ) gaming reviewer who was really cool. He didn't sit there stuffing his face with burrito's and he didn't even wear a sombrero. Also the most amazing thing about this Mexican was he didn't work as a gardener....he really had a some good insights into gaming" Even if my intention wasn't, which it wasn't mean to be, to insult Mexicans the types of generalizations I was making are insulting to Mexicans So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong Edited July 31, 2014 by BruceVC 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 If having an issue or disagreeing with people that make unsubstantiated and unhelpful comments around issues like gender representation means I am a "precious snowflake " that's fine for me. It won't change my perspective on this Let me give you another example, what would you think if there was a Mexican gaming reviewer and I made a comment that was well meant but came across as "hey guys, I came across this half-Latino ( I think ) gaming reviewer who was really cool. He didn't sit there stuffing his face with burrito's and he didn't even wear a sombrero. Also the most amazing thing about this Mexican was he didn't work as a gardener....he really had a some good insights into gaming" Even if my intention wasn't, which it wasn't mean to be, to insult Mexicans the types of generalizations I was making are insulting to Mexicans So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong point is that having sombrero or being gardener doesnt make him more attractive reviewer for opposit gender. Do you really dont see difference? He cant capitalise on that. Seriously, I am starting to wonder if you skip my questions on purpose 1 I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
BruceVC Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 If having an issue or disagreeing with people that make unsubstantiated and unhelpful comments around issues like gender representation means I am a "precious snowflake " that's fine for me. It won't change my perspective on this Let me give you another example, what would you think if there was a Mexican gaming reviewer and I made a comment that was well meant but came across as "hey guys, I came across this half-Latino ( I think ) gaming reviewer who was really cool. He didn't sit there stuffing his face with burrito's and he didn't even wear a sombrero. Also the most amazing thing about this Mexican was he didn't work as a gardener....he really had a some good insights into gaming" Even if my intention wasn't, which it wasn't mean to be, to insult Mexicans the types of generalizations I was making are insulting to Mexicans So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong point is that having sombrero or being gardener doesnt make him more attractive reviewer for opposit gender. Do you really dont see difference? He cant capitalise on that. Seriously, I am starting to wonder if you skip my questions on purpose I think you are misunderstanding the context of my point You cannot make a generalisation about something in life, which is an insulting generalisation, and use that to justify something positive. Because it immediately undermines the positive point you are trying to make For example if I say "wow the 2014 FIFA world cup was amazing, well done Brazil. I didn't think Brazil could pull it off considering the fact South Americans are so backward and there governments are so corrupt " "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) If having an issue or disagreeing with people that make unsubstantiated and unhelpful comments around issues like gender representation means I am a "precious snowflake " that's fine for me. It won't change my perspective on this Let me give you another example, what would you think if there was a Mexican gaming reviewer and I made a comment that was well meant but came across as "hey guys, I came across this half-Latino ( I think ) gaming reviewer who was really cool. He didn't sit there stuffing his face with burrito's and he didn't even wear a sombrero. Also the most amazing thing about this Mexican was he didn't work as a gardener....he really had a some good insights into gaming" Even if my intention wasn't, which it wasn't mean to be, to insult Mexicans the types of generalizations I was making are insulting to Mexicans So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong What a terrible analogy. Didn't realise Mexican gamers were being discriminated against. Edited July 31, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II
Monte Carlo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I'm not genetically predisposed to find people attractive based on cultural attributes like sombreros. However, I'm pretty much a slave to my reptilian proto-brain when it comes to hawt women. Unless the Mexican chick is Salma Hayek dancing with a snake or something, of course. So, Point Not Found. 1
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Obviously Salma Hayek's snake dance in a bikini was sexist. Need a social justice campaign against girls in bikinis dancing with a snake. 1
IndiraLightfoot Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong I hope you aren't succumbing to "It takes one to know one"-arguments, because that would be essentialist IMHO. 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Chilloutman Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I think you are misunderstanding the context of my point You cannot make a generalisation about something in life, which is an insulting generalisation, and use that to justify something positive. Because it immediately undermines the positive point you are trying to make For example if I say "wow the 2014 FIFA world cup was amazing, well done Brazil. I didn't think Brazil could pull it off considering the fact South Americans are so backward and there governments are so corrupt " Sorry but I completely lost on what social issue you are fighting now. I think I dont understand a word from that post 1 I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
BruceVC Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 So I tell you what Monte, hopefully some lady members will comment on this topic because it obvious you and I won't agree on whether the type of characterization of female gaming reviewers by Zwiebelchen is actually unintentionally offensive. I find it offensive but maybe I'm wrong I hope you aren't succumbing to "It takes one to know one"-arguments, because that would be essentialist IMHO. You are right, that's not my intention. But sometimes I do think the opinion of a particular group purely to share there own personal experiences is relevant. Sometimes its not relevant at all., for example there are women in South Africa who think the role of a women is to stay at home and let the man make any important decisions. Which I don't agree with at all unless it really is through an informed decision making process and not just because of the anachronistic view of the gender roles. In other words " female should be barefoot and pregnant and getting the dinner ready when the man comes home" 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
IndiraLightfoot Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah. You're right of course. There are a few personal experiences, often horrific ones or extremely context-specific ones, which can't really be conveyed truly unless you've been there. I have the greatest respect for that. I meant my comment for more general social categories (which most likely aren't that general when you scratch away the surface, after all). *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Doppelschwert Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 So lets deal with something relevant to this discussion. Female gaming reviewers. You guys have brought to my attention a possible problem which I want to discuss. It seems that there are groups of female gaming reviewers who use stripper makeup and tight revealing clothes as a strategy to discuss and review games when in fact they don't have any insight or credible knowledge of a particular game Oh c'mon bruce. Scroll to the top of the page. Know what's written there? Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS) You know what doesn't belong there? Social campaigning. I don't care how relevant or important that is for society, it doesn't belong here. It belongs to off-topic or you can argue via PNs all day long, but don't derail threads that are of actual public interest in the game with your issues. As a kind reminder: Guys, this off-topic discussion has gone on long enough. I'm going to have to get out the pruning shears if we don't stay on topic. To get back on the actual topic: So, are you guys going to pick your cultural background in favour of having cool looking starting gear or are you going for flavour? I'm torn on this one. well your background cant be changed, starting gear will be replaced in few minutes Given the low level setting, I don't think that we will be able to exchange loot quite that fast, especially the armor. You can probably buy a lot as soon as you are in town, but I think you'll only get the local aesthetics, so the starting gear from far away lands may actually be unique for quite some time into the game.
dorkboy Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) [redacted] Edited July 31, 2014 by dorkboy This statement is false.
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