Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Lets not confuse RL with Romance in a game, we are talking about a fantasy RPG here. So your question around someone in a wheelchair is inappropriate and irrelevant to the discussion I am not saying you need beautiful females or good looking males, I am saying you have to identify with a person to Romance them. And part of the identification is an appeal on the aesthetic level. And your photos of aliens and orcs and then asking if these are suitable Romance candidates is not going to be acceptable because most people don't identify with them? Its not complicated It's not inappropriate or irrelevant. I think I can sum up that you yourself have to be able to connect physically before any emotional involvement and not the other way around. There's no way you could connect emotionally first with an 'unattractive' woman in your eyes and then later feel attracted to that person later through deep and meaningful conversation. At least that's how it comes across. You would avoid that person on looks alone before it even got anywhere. Nothing like superficiality at its finest. Strange that the beauty and the beast concept is just idealistic to you. The message to me is that it's one's heart, rather than one's appearance that matters most. It's also striking that you couldn't romance a cat like person in a game like Skyrim which you've mentioned in the past and yet the TV show with Linda Hamilton has something very similar. She's romancing a cat like man. And during that time when the show was on, it seemed a lot of women were infatuated with Vincent on the show. Your view of 'Beauty and the Beast' and how you couldn't connect with an unattractive women most likely viewing her as the beast and you as the beauty makes me wonder if that unattractive woman actually sees you as the beast. As you've said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see what you want to see and you see yourself as 'beautiful' when in fact you could very well be the beast to everyone else. Edited July 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Lets not confuse RL with Romance in a game, we are talking about a fantasy RPG here. So your question around someone in a wheelchair is inappropriate and irrelevant to the discussion I am not saying you need beautiful females or good looking males, I am saying you have to identify with a person to Romance them. And part of the identification is an appeal on the aesthetic level. And your photos of aliens and orcs and then asking if these are suitable Romance candidates is not going to be acceptable because most people don't identify with them? Its not complicated It's not inappropriate or irrelevant. I think I can sum up that you yourself have to be able to connect physically before any emotional involvement and not the other way around. There's no way you could connect emotionally first with an 'unattractive' woman in your eyes and then later feel attracted to that person later through deep and meaningful conversation. At least that's how it comes across. You would avoid that person on looks alone before it even got anywhere. Nothing like superficiality at its finest. Strange that the beauty and the beast concept is just idealistic to you. The message to me is that it's one's heart, rather than one's appearance that matters most. It's also striking that you couldn't romance a cat like person in a game like Skyrim which you've mentioned in the past and yet the TV show with Linda Hamilton has something very similar. She's romancing a cat like man. And during that time when the show was on, it seemed a lot of women were infatuated with Vincent on the show. Your view of 'Beauty and the Beast' and how you couldn't connect with an unattractive women most likely viewing her as the beast and you as the beauty makes me wonder if that unattractive woman actually sees you as the beast. As you've said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see what you want to see and you see yourself as 'beautiful' when in fact you could very well be the beast to everyone else. I'm confused, are you asking me what I find attractive in RL or what I find "attractive" in RPG? You have been asking me some unusual questions, things like "can you Romance a semi-humanoid creature", "beauty is not what you see", "what is the definition of attraction" ....and then it occurred to me what you really asking. You want to know if Obsidian will allow you to Romance.... a sheep And unfortunately the answer to that is an unequivocal no !!! I know in parts of Australia this is acceptable social behaviour but for most of the rest of the world its just not considered normal so we won't be seeing that in PoE. But good trying to generate discussion around potential Romance options "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) I'm confused, are you asking me what I find attractive in RL or what I find "attractive" in RPG? You have been asking me some unusual questions, things like "can you Romance a semi-humanoid creature", "beauty is not what you see", "what is the definition of attraction" ....and then it occurred to me what you really asking. Well we are talking about rpgs in this thread and 'realism' and I've been saying all along that developers are pandering to players fantasies. You said you're all about 'realism' when it comes to romances. How much realism can you have in a crpg? And it seems non-human races like elves and orcs are okay for you to romance but how is that 'realism'? But it's interesting you can't decide if I'm talking about a crpg or real life. Must be hitting close to home. You want to know if Obsidian will allow you to Romance.... a sheep And unfortunately the answer to that is an unequivocal no !!! I know in parts of Australia this is acceptable social behaviour but for most of the rest of the world its just not considered normal so we won't be seeing that in PoE. But good trying to generate discussion around potential Romance options No, Bruce. Wrong country. hahaha. I know different countries are confusing to you but what you're suggesting has nothing to do with Australia. That's a different country you're thinking of altogether. Nice try though. Nothing like someone who tries to make a joke and fails dismally by confusing it with another country. Edited July 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 No, Bruce. Wrong country. hahaha. I know different countries are confusing to you but what you're suggesting has nothing to do with Australia. That's a different country you're thinking of altogether. Nice try though. Nothing like someone who tries to make a joke and fails dismally by confusing it with another country. But it was still funny right, at least it made you laugh. It made me laugh I'm not avoiding this discussion as I'm really enjoying it but I have things to do today. So lets continue this debate later where I can respond accordingly to your questions? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) If you're confused by my posting style then I suggest watching the movie The Interview. After you watch it, watch it again with the Writer/Directors commentary on and listen to what he has to say. It will change the whole concept of the movie for you. Basically there is no one interpretation of the movie. It's how your own bias reflects your own views on what the movie is about, and whether the main character is innocent or guilty. Your own biases decide the outcome. Just like my posts. You confuse my posts with, is Hiro talking about real life or a rpg? Well if you take it as I'm talking about an rpg, then that's what it will be for you. Edited July 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Basically there is no one interpretation of the movie. It's how your own bias reflects your own views on what the movie is about, and whether the main character is innocent or guilty. Your own biases decide the outcome. Just like my posts. You confuse my posts with, is Hiro talking about real life or a rpg? But it is kind of a relevant question, and you blurring the lines with questions like "would you date a wheelchair-bound person IRL?" doesn't help. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) But it is kind of a relevant question, and you blurring the lines with questions like "would you date a wheelchair-bound person IRL?" doesn't help. No, look at my post again. I never mentioned IRL. You put that on the end of my post. You've just proved my point. You're own bias has put that on my post and now you see it as IRL. You could have rpgs where an NPC is crippled but still could romance that NPC. eg. a Game of Thrones rpg with Brandon Stark grown up and crippled. Edited July 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 But it is kind of a relevant question, and you blurring the lines with questions like "would you date a wheelchair-bound person IRL?" doesn't help. No, look at my post again. I never mentioned IRL. You put that on the end of my post. You've just proved my point. You're own bias has put that on my post and now you see it as IRL. You could have rpgs where an NPC is crippled but still could romance that NPC. You asked whether he'd "go out" with a girl in a wheelchair; since I remember no RPG romance where you could go on dates with your chosen partner, I assumed you meant RL. (Admittedly, I'm no expert on CRPG romances.) "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) You asked whether he'd "go out" with a girl in a wheelchair; since I remember no RPG romance where you could go on dates with your chosen partner, I assumed you meant RL. (Admittedly, I'm no expert on CRPG romances.) And you can't go out with a crippled girl in a wheel chair in a crpg? Even if she was stunningly beautiful? As I said, if my post comes across as something you could do in a rpg, then that's what it will be. Here's an article about a game about dating disabled girls. I've never played it but I thought it was an interesting concept just the same. I'm not intentionally blurring the lines. I'm intentionally talking about rpgs but because we're talking about 'realism' as well then an interesting side effect will happen with your own bias of how you view my posts. It's up to the reader whether you continue talking about rpgs and keep it in that context, or you take it personally and take it as real life and respond as such. Edited July 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Winter Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I have to agree a bit with Hiro's point here - rpg developers have (historically) drawn/modelled the party-NPCs according to modern (Western) ideals of beauty such that you end up with a whole party of 'attractive people' (I'm generalising here). Whereas what should matter in a well-implemented rpg-romance (or friendship or other relationship) is the character themselves. (Not to mention having other representations of beauty - some people are attracted to fat people for instance) It's not unrealistic to want a realistic range of appearances in in-game characters (both romanceable and friendship/annoying-side-kick track). It's not that party-NPCs should never be attractive, it's more that they're always drawn that way and we don't get the chance to interact with others. (They are done this way to appeal to the mass-market - more people want to romance the hot-person they'd otherwise lack the confidence to approach. They like to roleplay the brave and charismatic hero)(again, generalising) Looking at BG2 - I initially didn't like Mazzy's portrait (from an attraction POV). But after having her in my party, I began to find her more appealing since her character and story were interesting (though she didn't have a romance track). Then again, she wasn't like the aliens shown either. Overall, I'd prefer a well-written 'ugly' character to a poorly-written 'beautiful' mini-game. The well-written characters are top-priority. Having a range of character appearances is also nice. 1 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 @Stun: the cost argument isn't all that compelling to me, although in all fairness and somewhat to my regret I've used it myself. Thing is, I especially like games with lots of optional or, even better, branching content. The most common argument against including lots of optional or branching content is "most players will never experience some of it, so wouldn't it be better to spend those resources on required content?" My answer to that is "no, because that would necessarily replace choice and consequence with illusions thereof, which would cheapen the entire experience." I.e. treating romance as just another type of optional content and arguing that it's a resource drain is counterproductive, because the same argument applies to any optional content. There are better arguments against romance (in the BioWare/dating-sim sense) than that, many of which have been made in this very thread. 2 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Thread pruned again. One last time - discuss the topic, not other posters or their posting style. Last time before I start handing out personal warnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) @Stun: the cost argument isn't all that compelling to me, although in all fairness and somewhat to my regret I've used it myself. Thing is, I especially like games with lots of optional or, even better, branching content. The most common argument against including lots of optional or branching content is "most players will never experience some of it, so wouldn't it be better to spend those resources on required content?" My answer to that is "no, because that would necessarily replace choice and consequence with illusions thereof, which would cheapen the entire experience." I.e. treating romance as just another type of optional content and arguing that it's a resource drain is counterproductive, because the same argument applies to any optional content. There are better arguments against romance (in the BioWare/dating-sim sense) than that, many of which have been made in this very thread. Call me bias, but I'm in total favor of Resources and time spent on *good* Optional stuff, like branching content, real plot choice and consequence, strongholds, bigger weapon variety, more Classes, and even more NPCs. But not romances. That is the official Obsidian stance for PoE, after all. Edited July 19, 2014 by Stun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hard to argue with spending resources on good stuff instead of bad stuff. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but you did say that "giant chunks of the resources for features they DO like must be diverted... to pay for the implementation of optional gimmicks... like Romances." I was taking issue with "optional," and perhaps also "gimmicks." Because as a general matter I like "optional" and sometimes "gimmicks" can be nice little additions too. E.g. the hacking and lockpicking minigames in FO:NV. Definitely gimmicks you could just as well replace with a skill check, but I felt they did add a nice bit of flavor without turning into a chore. 2 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtonw Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 You are absolutely correct that attraction can grow in time but that applies to attraction amongst humans. But when we are having a hypothetical discussion around whether the main character would develop Romance with a multi-tentacle alien I find it hard to believe under any circumstances *cough*Garrus Vakarian*cough* Oh wait. You're talking about female characters men would want to romance... never mind. 2 yo what up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneckdevil Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 They say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" But we also need to be realistic, a Romance experience is also about the fact that for most promancers you have to identify with the person you are Romancing. Part of identifying is being "attracted" to your potential Romance partner. So those photos you posted of the orc's are the same as the photo's of the aliens, they are just not attractive. And I would be surprised that any promancer would consider them a prospective Romance partner? That's what you seem to be missing, you keep being surprised or disappointed that the Dev's are pandering to players around NPC aesthetics. My point is its not pandering as part of the foundation of Romance is attraction, so in fact the Devs are doing the prudent thing around game design in this respect. We shouldn't be criticising them but acknowledging this as it makes perfect sense? Attraction can be something else other than sexy physical characteristics. The NPC may not be physically attractive to you at first, but over time you develop an attraction for them. This often happens in real life. Who would have though? And No, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed that developers are pandering to players fantasies. But nice to try make out that I was when I wasn't. I'm merely stating the obvious that developers do create unrealistic NPCs with anthropomorphising and sexualising those non-human NPCs to appeal to gamers to romance them. That's the unrealistic part that you think is realistic and based on realism. You are absolutely correct that attraction can grow in time but that applies to attraction amongst humans. But when we are having a hypothetical discussion around whether the main character would develop Romance with a multi-tentacle alien I find it hard to believe under any circumstances The concept of Beauty and the Beast is a sweet story but its idealistic and not relevant to modern Romance implementations. So once again I am dwelling in the world of realism with my Romance expectations and I find your ideas fanciful at best? Wait wait waitu might wanna take a step back. U are all for romance in a game but u are discrediting some very old and well done love stories. Beauty and the beast is a very old love story that has withstood time and is still relavent. The princess and the frog, a frog who is considered to be beneath her and totally disgusting (aka multitentacle beast) and without knowing what the frog really is is able to fall in love with it. There are many love stories that are based on unattractive or what we woukd consider gross or disgusting but ended up with a beautiful love story that taught us to look beyound physical looks for happiness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtonw Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Wait wait waitu might wanna take a step back. U are all for romance in a game but u are discrediting some very old and well done love stories. Beauty and the beast is a very old love story that has withstood time and is still relavent. The princess and the frog, a frog who is considered to be beneath her and totally disgusting (aka multitentacle beast) and without knowing what the frog really is is able to fall in love with it. There are many love stories that are based on unattractive or what we woukd consider gross or disgusting but ended up with a beautiful love story that taught us to look beyound physical looks for happiness. Hm funny how it's always the man that is "gross." Are there any fairy tales with gross ladies, I'd like to know. 1 yo what up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Not as romantic interests, I think. As ogresses, witches, evil stepmothers, and what have you, certainly. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Wait wait waitu might wanna take a step back. U are all for romance in a game but u are discrediting some very old and well done love stories. Beauty and the beast is a very old love story that has withstood time and is still relavent. The princess and the frog, a frog who is considered to be beneath her and totally disgusting (aka multitentacle beast) and without knowing what the frog really is is able to fall in love with it. There are many love stories that are based on unattractive or what we woukd consider gross or disgusting but ended up with a beautiful love story that taught us to look beyound physical looks for happiness. Hm funny how it's always the man that is "gross." Are there any fairy tales with gross ladies, I'd like to know. Plenty of fairy tales with gross ladies, but they are always villains or at least creepy. I think you're trying to point out a double standard where men can be very unattractive, but still sympathetic; whereas women must be pretty to be considered good. If that is what you are trying to point out it's definitely true. I for one think an ugly female romance could be kinda interesting; especially if the woman had self-esteem issues because of it. Bioware should definitely give a romance like that a whirl. I wouldn't recommend Obsidian do something like that though. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtonw Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I for one think an ugly female romance could be kinda interesting; especially if the woman had self-esteem issues because of it. Bioware should definitely give a romance like that a whirl. I wouldn't recommend Obsidian do something like that though. Oh, like in that One Direction song? yo what up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Not as romantic interests, I think. As ogresses, witches, evil stepmothers, and what have you, certainly. I suppose "Shrek" counts in a way, though the character design is thusly cartoonish that it doesn't really work that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Winter Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Wait wait waitu might wanna take a step back. U are all for romance in a game but u are discrediting some very old and well done love stories. Beauty and the beast is a very old love story that has withstood time and is still relavent. The princess and the frog, a frog who is considered to be beneath her and totally disgusting (aka multitentacle beast) and without knowing what the frog really is is able to fall in love with it. There are many love stories that are based on unattractive or what we woukd consider gross or disgusting but ended up with a beautiful love story that taught us to look beyound physical looks for happiness. Hm funny how it's always the man that is "gross." Are there any fairy tales with gross ladies, I'd like to know. Reminds me of a story set in old Russia with a Baba Yaga character - she's old and ugly but tells men that she's really a beautiful princess who was cursed and that if he only lies with her, then she'll transform ... but when they're done she doesn't transform and just eats them instead 2 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Hm funny how it's always the man that is "gross." Are there any fairy tales with gross ladies, I'd like to know.Don't know about fairy tales, but I can give you 2 minor examples in RPGs. Planescape Torment: Ravel. She is in love with the protagonist. And she's a famously ugly ancient Hag Dragon Age 2: Merill. If you can get over the fact that she looks and carries herself like a 10 year old, you have to then deal with her Yoda ears and her sci-fi Alien eyes. Edited July 20, 2014 by Stun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelschwert Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) The concept of Beauty and the Beast is a sweet story but its idealistic and not relevant to modern Romance implementations. So once again I am dwelling in the world of realism with my Romance expectations and I find your ideas fanciful at best? Suppose PoE had Romances, but only with hideous, old characters that don't apply to your sense for aesthetics, but great personalities. Would you be happy and rest your case? More to the point, suppose that there is an RPG that demands storywise that you can only play an old character, so that the same constraint fits from a story point of view. Having kids is also out of the question due to age. Would you be happy? Edited July 20, 2014 by Doppelschwert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The concept of Beauty and the Beast is a sweet story but its idealistic and not relevant to modern Romance implementations. So once again I am dwelling in the world of realism with my Romance expectations and I find your ideas fanciful at best? Suppose PoE had Romances, but only with hideous, old characters that don't apply to your sense for aesthetics, but great personalities. Would you be happy and rest your case? More to the point, suppose that there is an RPG that demands storywise that you can only play an old character, so that the same constraint fits from a story point of view. Having kids is also out of the question due to age. Would you be happy? Interesting question, its very hypothetical the suggestion that a development company would create a party of ugly old characters and expect Romance to be as popular? But to answer your question, no I don't think the Romance arc would be as appealing. And the reason is I wouldn't be able to identify with my party members as easily. Also I am not dismissing the relevance of classic love stories like Beauty and the Beast, I am saying they are not normally applicable in RL. In other words I have to be attracted to someone to have a Romantic interest in, I could not date someone that I'm not on some level physically attracted to. I imagine this is the same for most people? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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