I feel like I'm missing something here related to souls and the game mechanics in this game...?

[Nonek]

Two things occur to me since reading this information:

 

One. A gentleman or lady of vast wealth, power and influence in the mortal realm may not wish to resign themselves to the wheel of birth, death and rebirth. In essence it is almost like a more thorough version of Nameless' reincarnation, and nothing but vague echoes remain from past lives, so an egotistical individual may well decide that their Soul being immortal, it does not matter whether it is reborn or not. They're not willing to let everything they are and have done go, tears in the rain etcetera, and so decide that they shall try to manage their undead condition and control it with the help of a studious and interested Animancer. In essence play the epilogue of Dead Money and realise that the hard thing is letting go.

 

They may even see it as moral, to match move by move the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. And the Animancer's role in their bid for freedom may not be entirely voluntary.

 

Two. Given the information on the benificial everyday vocational activities of the average Animancer, one has to wonder whether they will play some role in the game? Whether as an individual whom the plot points one to, due to some condition arising from the narrative, or perhaps even as a number of individuals whom the party may have to consult due to certain game mechanics. A limited respec option, a remover of curses, or somesuch?

 

Edit: How much human flesh does a Fampyr have to consume? One human can provide quite a feast, as a large mammal, and in the busy hubbub of a city a few missing people is hardly a noteworthy event. Especially if they are wisely chosen, and have not much social impact.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

Two things occur to me since reading this information:

 

One. A gentleman or lady of vast wealth, power and influence in the mortal realm may not wish to resign themselves to the wheel of birth, death and rebirth. In essence it is almost like a more thorough version of Nameless' reincarnation, and nothing but vague echoes remain from past lives, so an egotistical individual may well decide that their Soul being immortal, it does not matter whether it is reborn or not. They're not willing to let everything they are and have done go, tears in the rain etcetera, and so decide that they shall try to manage their undead condition and control it with the help of a studious and interested Animancer. In essence play the epilogue of Dead Money and realise that the hard thing is letting go.

 

They may even see it as moral, to match move by move the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. And the Animancer's role in their bid for freedom may not be entirely voluntary.

 

Two. Given the information on the benificial everyday vocational activities of the average Animancer, one has to wonder whether they will play some role in the game? Whether as an individual whom the plot points one to, due to some condition arising from the narrative, or perhaps even as a number of individuals whom the party may have to consult due to certain game mechanics. A limited respec option, a remover of curses, or somesuch?

 

Edit: How much human flesh does a Fampyr have to consume? One human can provide quite a feast, as a large mammal, and in the busy hubbub of a city a few missing people is hardly a noteworthy event. Especially if they are wisely chosen, and have not much social impact.

your point one were never genuine disputed though, were it? am expecting you may always find some rare case, particularly in fantasy stories, o' the fool who would choose immortality even at the cost o' his soul, sanity and 401(k), etc.  the individual who laughs at God (or the Gods) and spits in the face o' infinity is kinda cliché, but is not gonna shock the player o' poe or the reader o' fantasy. and keep in mind that Dead Money is fallout universe. is no Real Gods and undeniable souls in fallout, but even so, is the immortals depicted as the lucky ones? ps:t explored such notions to some degree. is surprising that obsidian writers would recycle concepts? how did chrisA reveal to us tno's bid for immortality? including the damned quest o' would-be immortal in yet another obsidian game is not gonna shock us. in point o' fact, in such cases the costs to our token fool need necessarily be extreme to give scope to the crime 'gainst nature and/or gods. 

 

nope, we ain't talking 'bout individuals. the "common folk" is a broad category for which josh were able to make generalizations. am doubting common folks is the only class that is subject to his braodstroke approach.

 

as to your point two, we expect that the obsidians will stress the value o' everyday and mundane animancy and possibly the monetary benefits o' the animancer's art as well.  we made this observation in the other animancy threads. am not certain how far it takes us. we gave example o' seeming minor 20% increase in crop yield for farmers in another thread. farmer might not know much 'bout animancy, but if he were told that he would needs give up that 20% 'cause o' protests 'gainst animancy, the farmer might balk. 20% is significant to the farmer. 'course this ignores how the animancer got the farmer his 20%. if you thinks real world folks is kinda over-the-top about animal testing, imagine the reaction o' folks in a world with Real souls discovering that Mega Corn® were made possible thanks to testing 'pon a thousand discarded children. what if only requires testing on the SOULS o' five people (an extreme small group for any scientific study) would that make it ok?

 

 

as to how much flesh is needed... huh? no doubt the victims will be feeling much better knowing that they is kinda like the goat the anaconda steals from some Guatemalan farmer. yeah, the goat is dead, but the anaconda will be able to go without eating for a whole month. call it a win for the goat? no doubt other farmers is not fearing anacondas much 'cause is only one goat per month? will the view o' the aforementioned classes and groups such as commons and nobles be more dismissive o' the evil o' undead creation once they realize that the anaconda in question need only feed rarely?

 

*shrug*

 

dunno if we are on same page. given the descriptions o' animancy, and the recognition that this is a fantasy game, we would be surprised if obsidian didn't include at least one individual who would be challenging fate. is kinda an obsidian thing, no? even so, that don't strike us as particularly relevant when considering how social/cultural groups in poe view animancy. if value o' soul in a world with Real souls is similar to how true believers view soul in our world, then am not getting animancy as described. something is clear missing. if souls is viewed as inconsequential, then am surprised by common folks reaction. parts just don't fit together quite right, do they?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Nonek]

I do apologise I had not perused your posts before submitting my own Mr Gromnir, I had merely been percolating on the subject and coming to conclusions. The first that it might be quite easy to handle and maintain a secret state of undeath as a Fampyr, and be an attractive and moral decision for some of the more egotistical individuals whom have trouble letting go. Thus the question on how much cannibalism they need to partake in. Of course an easily maintained condition might invite over-confidence, and thus danger from another direction.

 

The second that to gain a more thorough knowledge and grounding with Animancy we might be more narratively or mechanically associated with it, and thus see the more common groundwork as a balance to such situations as are illustrated in my first example.

 

As for the masses feelings towards Animancy, we have the same answer as before, they are wary of if not violently against the practice. This for me fits with their conception of the Soul, and to similar advances being greeted with scepticism and hatred by the peoples of our own renaissance era, such as the good book being translated to a non classical tongue. However as before I would hesitate to say that there is something wrong with Obsidian's conception of Animancy, as I simply do not have enough evidence to support that assertion. It seems logical enough from what information Mr Sawyer has provided us, at least to my method of thought.

 

After all it is not so far removed from what Wizard's, Cipher's, Druid's and others are doing, we are not familiar with manipulating our Souls to achieve spectacular results, but for the inhabitants of Poe this is a (if not mundane) then acknowledged aspect of their own being. Animancer's taking that research and manipulation one step further is a rather natural and expected advancement in my view.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Nonek

[Lephys]

It seems to me that it's a lot like medicine, in relation to the "unwashed masses." Plenty of people got horrible diseases and conditions and didn't really understand anything at all about the human physiology. Yet, the few doctors who actually studied that stuff, in-depth, knew a significant chunk about it. Thus, the knowledgeless folk imagined all kinds of stuff about doctors. They thought medicines were magic, or sometimes, if people were treated but still got worse and/or died, they'd just assume that the doctor cursed them or something.

 

Heck, a lot of people probably just thought scientists, in general, were practicing witchcraft. "HOW DID YOU JUST MAKE THAT FIRE?! HE'S A DEMON!"

 

When people don't know things, they somewhat arbitrarily (mostly emotionally) attribute thing A with thing B. "I don't know what it is you're doing, exactly, or why, or how... but it COULD be anything, and who knows what could come of it?" Then, something bad happens, and it's at least circumstantially related to that unknown, questionable practice. You now either decide it's good, or that it's bad, etc. Then you try to describe the process, because it seems better to guess than to just walk around with the question mark.

 

It's kinda like early religions. "Oh, that giant circle of light in the sky grants us light and warmth every day. SURELY IT'S A GOD! Oh no, it's gone all dark? WE'VE ANGERED IT!"

 

I still don't get why masses of uneducated people with no knowledge of a given thing are magically supposed to properly link causes and effects. They live in a fantasy world instead of a real one. Okay... there are plenty of horrors in their world even if animancy didn't exist and never produced any. So how are they to tell the difference between some creature or sickness in the world and the direct results of animancy? I don't understand why they're supposed to attribute things to animancy, when most of them have no friggin' idea what it is. Unless someone goes around providing seminars on animancy, as part of a charity.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Lephys

[Gromnir]

This for me fits with their conception of the Soul, and to similar advances being greeted with scepticism and hatred by the peoples of our own renaissance era, such as the good book being translated to a non classical tongue. However as before I would hesitate to say that there is something wrong with Obsidian's conception of Animancy, as I simply do not have enough evidence to support that assertion. It seems logical enough from what information Mr Sawyer has provided us, at least to my method of thought.

 

After all it is not so far removed from what Wizard's, Cipher's, Druid's and others are doing, we are not familiar with manipulating our Souls to achieve spectacular results, but for the inhabitants of Poe this is a (if not mundane) then acknowledged aspect of their own being. Animancer's taking that research and manipulation one step further is a rather natural and expected advancement in my view.

 

 

you is seriously comparing the resistance o' folks  translation o' the bible into languages other than latin to poe animancy?  

 

...

 

am understanding why people keep using real world examples, but the examples you come up with baffle us. is gonna be very difficult to analogize to real world given we got actual souls being potentially harmed by animancers, but even so, to use bible translation strikes us as a very odd choice. 

 

and yes, we agree that it would be natural for some animancers to push boundaries, and they is perhaps a kinda evolution, much as chemistry were a kinda evolution from alchemy. but again, the imagined horrors that were resulting in antagonism and bigotry being directed at real world sciences is gonna be laughable when compared to poe animancy that does in fact create nightmarish monsters through perversions o' soul related magic. 

 

frankenstein is the frequent used real world cautionary tale 'bout science run amok yes? that were fiction. there never were no frankenstein monster. in point o' fact, ms. shelley's monster were benign for most o' the novel. dr. frankenstein creates and is horrified by the creatures ugliness and crudity. the monster is cast out and wanders alone til it decides to observe and aid a family kinda in secret. monster eventually learns french and befriends some old blind guy. happy days. everything is ok til family returns and sees the hideous monster and the beast is again driven away. our misbegotten protagonist returns to dr. frankenstein and observes that he will never gain acceptance from people, and so he asks his maker to craft for him a companion. dr. frankenstein initially agrees, but then he starts to worry about the implications o' a race o' monsters, and so he destroys his female creation. the monster finally snaps and swears he will get revenge on frankenstein.

 

if frankenstein's monster has gained a foothold in the collective consciousness as representing the dangers o' science run amok, what then o' the Real Monsters produced by animancy? how much more terrible and vivid is gonna be the nightmares attributed to animancy given that the poe science does require trafficking in human souls and may result in undying monsters? 

 

and lephys don't even realizing that he is hurting his own cause? doctors were, in some cultures, viewed with suspicion borne outta fears given birth in the imaginations o' the ignorant. animancy dangers, on the other hand is real. am not understanding why this don't get through. mistaken belief that doctors and midwifes can hurt souls and create undead results in persecution, so imagine what kinda difficulties animancers, who actual does manipulate souls and create undead is gonna be facing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we would ask once more that people quit using real world examples without recognizing that souls make different. either distinguish poe souls or try and find a parallel that would be equivalent to the possible destruction o' one's soul, but compare to real world examples such as we see above strikes us as intellectual dishonest.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

I'm not hurting my own cause. There are horrible things in the REAL world. Why does it matter whether they're affiliated with souls or not?

 

The human biology is real, and yet people still didn't know anything about it. What, because it's souls and animancy fampyrs, suddenly people's brains just become wellsprings of knowledge? "Oh hey... now I know that guy is an animancer, and what he's trying to do!"

 

Are the animancers going to wear scarlet letters on their chests?

 

I'm not denying that a world filled with magical horrors is more horrific than only reality's horrors. What you're failing to actually present, here, is the reason why anyone would be any more knowledgeable about any of this in one world than in the other.

 

People attributed all kinds of stuff to doctors and medicine and science. And yet, look at us today. People still advanced science and medicine aplenty. No one hunted down all the scientists in the world and beat them all to death.

 

We have all manner of chemical agents and biological warfare, today, and yet, still, we have labs all over the place, with people doing God-only-knows-what. You think the majority of the population is about to explain to you, in detail, what all is going on in those labs? Nope. They just believe what they want.

 

It's no different in a world with monsters and soul manipulation. I can blame everything I've ever seen in my entire life on animancers, and still that doesn't help me actually identify animancy from non-animancy, much less animancers, themselves.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Lephys

[Gromnir]

I'm not hurting my own cause. There are horrible things in the REAL world. Why does it matter whether they're affiliated with souls or not?

 

*rolls eyes*

 

souls is an abstraction in the real world. they ain't in poe. you don't need faith in poe. nevertheless, one wonders how one who has read any fiction that deals with souls, or any historical accounts o' martyrs could possibly come away with a pov such as you have. is genuine beyond our capacity to understand.  hell, play motb or ps:t and see how obsidian has already handled issues o' the importance o' the soul in previous games.

 

"I'm not denying that a world filled with magical horrors is more horrific than only reality's horrors. What you're failing to actually present, here, is the reason why anyone would be any more knowledgeable about any of this in one world than in the other."

 

we don't have to. josh already did. the ignorant folks in poe is the ones who fear animancers will bring about apocalypse. perhaps ironically, the folks who know the dangers o' animancy is the ones who seem more accepting. more accepting than Apocalypse? not much o' a threshold. nevertheless, we didn't present a reason 'cause josh supplied as a given. our assumption would be that in the absence o' real knowledge, people will, as a whole, fear the worst, but we don't need to concern ourselves as josh already explained. common folks don't know and they fear apocalypse. you seem to believe that knowledge o' the real dangers would justify real fear. great. you and Gromnir is on the same page. animancy got real horrific dangers that go far beyond the dangers that inspired bigotry and suspicion o' real world dark age and early Renaissance scientists. therefore, real knowledge o' real dangers should result in a real freaking p00p stain in one's huggies when they is dealing with animancers. josh tells us that the knowledgeable folks is accepting. thus the disconnect.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

You don't have to do anything. I only pointed out that you didn't. And neither did Josh. He presented the masses state of unknowing and assuming.

 

Being ignorant of facts and assuming a bunch of stuff already happens in the real world, with real things that are dangerous. That still doesn't stop the dangerous things from happening. It just keeps the people using the dangerous things out of towns and cities filled with a bunch of ignorant (on the subject matter), assumptive people. Or, at least, very discreet.

 

Thus, I still fail to see your qualm with this. What is it exactly you're expecting? For animancy to be infeasible to even practice anywhere? That if a bunch of people think negatively about something, the world is rid of it?

 

Also, like you said, they know it's real. And, as Josh said, a lot of animancers don't do sinister stuff, but instead try to help cure things that conventional medicine can't. Beneficial stuff.

 

You seem to be arguing that people have born witness to things like undead and other atrocities that were, indeed, created by animancy, but if anyone has ever succeeded at anything beneficial with it, then that's "real" too, and no longer just arbitrary belief or assumption.

 

However, none of that changes the fact that most people still have no idea what animancy actually is. Just because factual evidence of things exists in the world doesn't mean people all get their hands on it and/or read about it. For every actual act of animancy that terrorizes some people, and gets rightfully blamed, there are 100 mystery ailments and just-plain-negative things that get attributed to animancy (wrongfully), only to be revealed as not even what they seemed.

 

*shrug*. You seem to want it to be completely one-sided or something. The evidence is there, thus everyone and their mother should just somehow prevent the feasible operation of animancers or something. I don't understand why that is. Souls and magic or no souls and magic, people are people. It's no different than in the real world, when it comes to massly attributing mystery stuff (because you, the masses, don't actually know about it directly) to something you see as negative. It's a bunch of heresay, one way or the other. Even if it's fact, if you don't know it's fact, then you're just jumping on the bandwagon for all you know. Which people already do, regardless of whether or not something's actually real.

 

Yes, plenty of people will want nothing to do with it, and probably be actively hostile toward animancers. Doesn't mean every single person ever on the planet is just going to jump to conclusions and not want to get further info on it, and/or believe in the good it can do, get tricked, just be an idiot, etc.

[Nonek]

 

you is seriously comparing the resistance o' folks  translation o' the bible into languages other than latin to poe animancy? 

 

 

The translation issue seemed pertinent in that the damnation of ones eternal soul was supposedly at stake, this was an issue of taking the Lord's words in vain and going directly against his mouthpiece on Earth. The similarity seems more than apparent for a true believer, you are tampering with the Divine will, surely that is what a peasant in Eora must believe Animancer's are doing?

 

To any average man of the renaissance period surely his soul was just as real as those in Poe, and the presence of God was a fact because of the masses of supposed evidence around him, as well as his cultural and spiritual upbringing. To hear of men taking a stand against mother church, and commiting such unthinkable blasphemy seems quite apt to what Animancer's might be facing.

 

Edit: But the core of the issue seems quite reasonable, the nobility are supporting Animancy for the beneficial everyday aspects it presents as a physician for the Soul, and quite obviously no-one in their right mind would support a rogue Animancer who has performed the experiments that result in Undeath. Barring extraordinary circumstances of course. Mr Sawyer also states that such experiments are rare, expensive and extremely frowned upon so there seems to be no illogical issues to me.

 

Of course what goes on in secret and extraordinary circumstances will remain as uncommon knowledge, not to be talked of or speculated upon, merely exterminated by the most expedient method. Perhaps where the protagonist steps in?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

much overstatement here unless you can back up further. translations were discouraged by the church, but as far as we know, there were never any threat o' excommunication or other such ultimate punishments. translations o' various forms were obvious necessary early in the church as most o' the original book weren't written in latin. around 1200 or so there were a formal prohibition on unauthorized bibles as a reaction to some s'posed heresies, but such weren't specific a translation issue, and there is at least evidence o' later french translations that didn't actual get suppressed, yes? technically, such ownership were not classified as a sin, so no, were not a damnation o' soul issue. would ownership o' a heretical bible tend to lead one to sin? yes, thus the prohibition. that being said, where excommunication and eternal damnation were at issue with religious issues, then we do have valid analogies. got any you wanna share? am betting we can show that there were serious resistance from all classes and social strata to folks engaging in damnation worthy offenses. 

 

rise o' protestantism? well, that is an interesting issue as is particularly plausible in a world without omnipresent and objectively real gods. is not an early renaissance and late feudal period kinda thing, but is noteworthy. without any kinda absolute truth, how does one know if their soul is in danger or not in our real world.  got faith? maybe you is having absolute faith in a god or a church, but is faith nonetheless.  again, poe world don't rely on faith... don't need it. is objective observable what animancers can and do do to the soul. is Not the same. serious. am not seeing how this is so difficult to grasp for folks. as real as soul is to folks in real world, it is real based on faith. knowing what damages the soul is also a matter o' faith... but not in poe.

 

kepler actual got protection from jesuits to stave off harassment from protestants, but am knowing galileo is the typical example o' church resistance to Renaissance enlightenment, yes? is our understanding that galileo actual used scripture to defend himself. he were pleading and trying to convince that he were in line with the church rather than fighting the Church or outward denying.  and for his trouble, galileo gets house arrest for the rest of his life. perhaps animancers would be expecting similar?  perhaps not in more enlightened locales? but then again, galileo were not accused o' using magic that could alter the soul or raise dead. you gotta see the difference. or maybe not.

 

btw, we know for a fact that there is corporeal undead in the poe world. is not some kind remote far-in-past bedtime story. 

 

the poe world view on animancy we has seen so far has... holes. is lacking an internal coherence unless one has a much diminished notion o' the value o' the soul.  

 

"Thus, I still fail to see your qualm with this. What is it exactly you're expecting? For animancy to be infeasible to even practice anywhere? That if a bunch of people think negatively about something, the world is rid of it?"

 

never said that. is very difficult to communicate with you if you is gonna make stuff up and contradict yourself at every turn. you identify real world bigotry and suspicion that doctors faced, but you cannot cognizance increased suspicion o' animancers who actually can do the evils suspected 'o real world late feudal doctors?  okie dokie. regardless, layoff the absurdism. we never suggested that animancy would be "infeasible" o' practice anywhere. we did say that animancers would face extreme suspicion everywhere. the uninformed is suspicious according to josh 'cause all they got is fear. well guess what, the informed know that the fears is not complete unjustified. animancers really does manipulate souls and they can create undead.

 

you wanna analogize to the real world? fine. real world setting is late feudal and early renaissance and a new science evolves. the new science produces a cure for schizophrenia. unfortunately, some o' the scientists created genuine undead by binding souls to corpses... and some animancers is still doing so. what is the reaction o' pretty much freaking everybody to such a science and the people who practice? now, unlike lephys, Gromnir is not complete obtuse on this issue. we got a world o' magic when dealing with poe, so am suspecting the tolerance for the bizarre is a bit higher in the poe setting. is not direct analogous. however, at the same time you got the animancers exercising their craft through somewhat suspect and arguable immoral manipulation o' souls. in real world late feudal, we suspect that open practice o' animancy would not only be "infeasible" but animancers would be hunted down and burned at the stake. good riddance too.  seriously? create undead and bind souls? but the nice animancer gave us an ointment for our boil. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps serious odd post issue... half our text were mixed into quoted material. am thinking we fixed... kinda.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

never said that. is very difficult to communicate with you if you is gonna make stuff up and contradict yourself at every turn. you identify real world bigotry and suspicion that doctors faced, but you cannot cognizance increased suspicion o' animancers who actually can do the evils suspected 'o real world late feudal doctors?  okie dokie. regardless, layoff the absurdism. we never suggested that animancy would be "infeasible" o' practice anywhere. we did say that animancers would face extreme suspicion everywhere. the uninformed is suspicious according to josh 'cause all they got is fear. well guess what, the informed know that the fears is not complete unjustified. animancers really does manipulate souls and they can create undead.

I would appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of "making stuff up" when all I'm doing is expressing a failure to comprehend your point, and asking questions to better discern what it is. If the questions are false, then simply answer as such. I wouldn't even begin to know how to interrogatively put words in your mouth. By its very nature, a question suggests a lack of knowledge, not a declaration of one.

 

Anywho, I cannot "cognizance increased suspicion o' animancers who actually can do the evils suspected 'o real world late feudal doctors?"? When have I failed to do that? My only response is, increased suspicion with whom? How do the people who still don't know who Steve the Animancer is, or where he works, or how to even recognize actual animancy at work, suddenly have a first-hand-knowledge basis of how great their fear and suspicion should be purely because the thing they fear definitely exists in the world instead of doesn't?

 

Tell me... if something's not real, does that change anything for someone who believes it is? If a kid things raptors live in his closet, and they'll get him if he doesn't close his closet door at night, does it make any difference if he reads a news article about a kid somewhere else who actually did get eaten by raptors overnight because he didn't close his door?

 

Yes, "people" would be quite suspicious of animancy. However, that doesn't mean everyone in the world would just mindlessly fear it. Some people are curious and would check it out first. Some people would personally know people who started dabbling in it, and, instead of just instantly labeling that person evil and burning them, would probably be prone to thinking "Hmm... okay, he's using animancy. But, he wouldn't ever hurt a fly, and is always super worried about doing anything to people against their will, etc., and has always been benevolent. Maybe I should find out more before jumping to conclusions."

 

I just don't understand... what's the issue? Has it been given a global suspicion factor of 723, and it should really be 771? What is it, specifically, that's incongruous with the current lore?

 

And, if you would be so kind as to answer without the eye-rolling and exasperation, that would be great. No one's making you answer me. If I'm just an annoyance, then don't answer, or just tell me so. I won't take offense. I'm genuinely not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand what's going on here.

[tajerio]

There're a lot of pixels being flung around here, and they're obfuscating the dispute a bit.  But is it correct to say that for you, Gromnir, you feel that the average person in Eora doesn't feel enough antipathy towards animancy, since it's mucking about with a part of himself he knows is eternal?

 

If that's the point, then I'm with you--I don't think that wariness and general disapproval quite cuts it.  But perhaps the point is something else entirely?

[Nonek]

Doesn't everybody in Poe manipulate their immortal Soul somewhat, as one would assume that is one of the method of factually knowing of its existence, wouldn't they be more used to such things not less?

 

As for the more educated experimenting in more questionable areas, wasn't that somewhat common in our own world. Alchemists who were suspected of dealing with the devil, entertained or were even retained by Kings, Queens and Emperor's. The educated middle and upper classes watching experimentation upon corpses with electricity, that promised revivification and sparked Mrs Shelley's most famous creation according to some. The fascination with the macabre and spiritualism that was catered to by ingenious frauds, and lapped up by the great and the good?

 

Edit: Of course Animancers might be rightfully or wrongly judged to be guilty of harming a Soul somewhat, but also might be a legitimate means of also healing one, as Mr Sawyer suggests. Thus the course of action towards them becomes clear, keep a close eye upon them, employ the reputable moralistic ones, and hunt down those who create the Undead. Though I doubt it will be so simple a matter to execute.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

There're a lot of pixels being flung around here, and they're obfuscating the dispute a bit.  But is it correct to say that for you, Gromnir, you feel that the average person in Eora doesn't feel enough antipathy towards animancy, since it's mucking about with a part of himself he knows is eternal?

 

If that's the point, then I'm with you--I don't think that wariness and general disapproval quite cuts it.  But perhaps the point is something else entirely?

yes. josh expresses that the common folks is suspicious. how can the rest o' folks not be? we noted many times that we expect that in a game such as poe there would be examples o' those would test any law o' man, Gods or nature. you don't put something like animancy in a game and then complete ignore the possibility for drama. single and solitary examples o' such is expected. perhaps even a cabal? any kinda widespread acceptance o' animancy, even within an "enlightened" nation, strikes us a s wholly unreasonable. 

 

"As for the more educated experimenting in more questionable areas, wasn't that somewhat common in our own world. Alchemists who were suspected of dealing with the devil, entertained or were even retained by Kings, Queens and Emperor's. The educated middle and upper classes watching experimentation upon corpses with electricity, that promised revivification and sparked Mrs Shelley's most famous creation according to some. The fascination with the macabre and spiritualism that was catered to by ingenious frauds, and lapped up by the great and the good?"

 

and who are these brave heroes who would come forth and open and notorious defend such practices even though the fears o' all were borne o' nothing save imagination. if the fears were real, how much less likely would be folks to admit trafficking with animancers/alchemist or whatnot... particularly in a world where Gods and souls is also real? am still not sure why that point don't get through. is not hypothetical. is not possible imagined. is not faith. is incontrovertibly real. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

What is real? That there are and have been immoral Animancers who commited unspeakable crimes in the world of Poe? Yes that is a fact that no-one is arguing over I don't think, and they seem to have set the modern dislike of the profession. Nobody would tolerate such crimes then or now, this seems obvious. However retaining the services of Animancers whom don't dabble in such things seems perfectly logical as well.

 

As for examples of famed alchemists I always rely on good old Doctor John Dee, a genius as well as a man suspected of congress with the devil.

 

Edit: Anyway one is off to bed, thank you for the interesting argument.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

What is real? That there are and have been immoral Animancers who commited unspeakable crimes in the world of Poe? Yes that is a fact that no-one is arguing over I don't think, and they seem to have set the modern dislike of the profession. Nobody would tolerate such crimes then or now, this seems obvious. However retaining the services of Animancers whom don't dabble in such things seems perfectly logical as well.

 

As for examples of famed alchemists I always rely on good old Doctor John Dee, a genius as well as a man suspected of congress with the devil.

 

Edit: Anyway one is off to bed, thank you for the interesting argument.

if john dee had been open and notorious about his magical studies, he would never have survived his star chamber experiences or his investigation by the catholic church... and Magic Ain't Real, 'least not poe style magic. sheesh. is no contemporary oh john dee that were turning people into ghouls or binding their souls to inanimate objects. if there had been, do you honest believe your doctor example woulda gotten any kinda o' benefit o' the doubt from those who suspected him o' sinister purposes?

 

as to the "what is real" stuff, you surely don't expect us to go down that road, do you? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ManifestedISO]

Evidently the PoE public's focus is forgiving because the instance of beneficial animancy far outweighs the scary corpse-animating research. Sawyer said, "a great deal" of animancy goes toward "beneficial things," so, for there to be minimal community outcry, it must follow that animancer villains are either ultra-rare in number, or more successful in secret.   

 

 

[Lephys]

What Nonek said. I think of Animancy like I think of guns. Guns are real. The destruction they wreak is real. However, everyone doesn't just shun everyone who has a gun. Some people are trusted to carry guns around, and protect the rest of the people. Why? Because guns aren't inherently evil.

 

Same with animancy. Yeah, the general consensus might be like 90/10 on the badness of animancy, as opposed to less-than-that for guns in the real world, but, it's the same principle.

 

I don't think a bunch of random people should just be born thinking "Hmm... animancy probably isn't bad at all." But, there are people of a scientific (for lack of a better word) mind who would realize that it is a tool that can be used in a variety of ways, and that just because some people don't adhere to boundaries and do reckless/wretched things with it doesn't mean it should be exterminated.

 

Of course, people are people. You're going to have entire cultures/peoples who will burn you for even saying the word, while there might be other cultures who have simply grown up around it more, and teach everyone about it and how it is to be used, etc. Much like science/technology in general. There are some cultures in certain places, even today, that see anything technological as evil magic that isn't to be dabbled with. They don't ask questions, they just shun it and fear it and attack it. Whereas, in other places, people grow up studying and partaking in chemistry and inventing robots and vehicles, etc.

 

AI. That's another good example. Plenty of people are working on true AI technology. Even though a lot of us fear what could realistically occur if something got out of hand with that, we don't burn scientists at the stake. SOME people might. But "we," as in all of humanity, do not. Thus, it still occurs, and there are still people interested in it, and interested in ways of handling it such that it will not turn into Skynet. Etc.

 

There are always going to be people who, due to whatever circumstances, see things differently. If there weren't, then there wouldn't even be anyone interested in practicing animancy in the first place, much less condoning someone else's practice of it.

[anameforobsidian]

@ Sawyer's comments

 

BTW, this is all sounding much more like something out of a Hammer film than something out of the turn of the renaissance, but that's not a bad thing if it's handled well.

 

Eh, it sounds very similar to early medicine, where practitioners would have to pay grave robbers for corpses to learn about anatomy.  Dissection was seen as an unnatural process.  Also, they could do some good, but often much harm.

 

 

Because guns aren't inherently evil.

 

That's debatable, but I won't press the point here.

Edited July 9, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[Gromnir]

What Nonek said. I think of Animancy like I think of guns. Guns are real. The destruction they wreak is real. However, everyone doesn't just shun everyone who has a gun. Some people are trusted to carry guns around, and protect the rest of the people. Why? Because guns aren't inherently evil.

 

 

*sigh*

 

in a world with souls that is real and incontrovertible, animancers may bind those souls to inanimate objects as well as to the corpses o' the dead. not only is animancers able to do such, they has.  you are sooooo not helping by analogizing to such stuff as real world guns. no matter what new and more ridiculous example you come up with, we is still left with your previous admission:

 

"I'm not hurting my own cause. There are horrible things in the REAL world. Why does it matter whether they're affiliated with souls or not?"

 

again, go play motb or ps:t. read 'bout martyrs. souls is making qualitative different. make those souls real and it is so far from analogous we have difficulty expressing just how bizarre your perspective is seeming. there is no real world analogue to an animancer binding your soul to your corpse. the reasonable fear o' anaimancers should be extreme regardless o' whether they can can relieve your gout symptoms or not.  obsidian developers in their info drop about undead tells us that animancers, pretending to sell immortality to nobles, has in fact cursed them by binding their souls to their corpse. is positively faustian. is not a solitary event neither. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't think any specific analogy can be drawn between animancy and anything in the real world. I suppose a comparison could be made between the people supporting or opposed to animancy and support of or opposition to some real world issue, but it is probably best to discuss animancy without muddying it with real world issues peripherally related to it.

 

As to undeath, I wouldn't be suprised if some individuals were ok with eating people to keep themselves alive. Maybe there could be a small quest involving the investigation of murders that leads the PC to an undead(or group of) creature(s) who kills people in order to feed.

[curryinahurry]

 

@ Sawyer's comments

 

BTW, this is all sounding much more like something out of a Hammer film than something out of the turn of the renaissance, but that's not a bad thing if it's handled well.

 

Eh, it sounds very similar to early medicine, where practitioners would have to pay grave robbers for corpses to learn about anatomy.  Dissection was seen as an unnatural process.  Also, they could do some good, but often much harm.

 

 

 

Hammer Horror films were a re-visiting of a lot of the 19th century horror classics; often updated or viewed from a slightly more modern perspective than the original (this led to a lot of spin-offs from other movie companies with similar themes).  The ideas were heavily influenced by 19th century victorian / English Romantic literature, which was concerned, often with the dangers of modernity.  Much of that content was influenced by your early medicine reference.  

 

My point, is that  Animancy comes off much more as a quasi-scientific discipline meets the occult rather than a more medieval field like Alchemy and is thus a bit anachronistic.  Not  a bad thing if its done right

[Nonek]

Well with the reluctance to use any form of comparison due to Souls and their manipulation not existing in real life, then I shall simply state that I personally see no problem with the potentates of the Dyrwood and Vaillian republics retaining the services of Animancers for beneficial purposes, it seems eminently logical. It may not be popular due to widespread mistrust of the profession, but these are from what we have been shown semi feudal lords whom presumably do not have to rely on popularity. So long as they do not employ or condone Animancers whom practice the more negative side of the craft, then they will probably not have to fear revolt or the mob.

 

Obviously extraordinary examples still remain viable, as well as works conducted in secret. And in the countryside one expects that an Animancer may well be hung, burned or beaten if revealing his identity.

 

Edit:

 

 

as to the "what is real" stuff, you surely don't expect us to go down that road, do you? 

 

 

I was merely clarifying your last sentence stating repeatedly that Souls and their manipulation were real in Poe, not asking to discuss the nature of reality. This seems obvious.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

as to the "what is real" stuff, you surely don't expect us to go down that road, do you? 

 

 

I was merely clarifying your last sentence stating repeatedly that Souls and their manipulation were real in Poe, not asking to discuss the nature of reality. This seems obvious.

sure seems that way. "what is real" is a quote btw. souls and gods is different in the real world than they is in poe. Gromnir is gonna accept that fact and move forward 'cause we sure as hell ain't gonna engage in a metaphysical debate. doing so is nothing more than a functional distraction. 

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, given the setup o' animancers in poe, we see your reaction as wholly implausible. you, like lephys, is looking from perspective o' a world o' science wherein the science itself ain't good or bad. animancy, however, is not at all like chemistry or even medicine. your own examples o' real world practitioners o' suspect arts necessarily needed to do so secretly because it were feared that such arts endangered the souls o' themselves and those around them. in poe world you got real magic, so open use o' magic is not gonna get same adverse reaction. unfortunate for you, souls is also real. animancers binding souls to objects and corpses is real. animancers traveling about and offering faustian deals to unsuspecting rich and noble fools is also real. the uneducated fear that animancers will bring about Apocalypse. the educated, the folks who know o' undead creation and animancers playing at mephistophiles and offering immortality while stealing souls has less reason to be suspicious? to the educated and informed, the cost o' misplaced faith in a chemist is what, a toxic cloud and a chemical fire? misplaced faith in animancer, on the other hand, is far more serious.

 

secretive government organizations and shady cabals making use o' animancers? sure. individuals who dare fate and spit in the eye o' god (or gods or whatever) for possibility o' immortality or maybe even for a misguided dream o' a greater good? yeah, obsidian has actual done such more than once. ps:t, motb, and fo:nv is all having examples o' such hubris. animancers who has widespread acceptance 'cause o' their good works? that would be perfect reasonable if poe world didn't have animancers creating genuine rather than imagined horrors and if potential cost o' misplaced faith were not your very real soul. 

 

but again, is going in circles.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rahkir]

your very real soul. 

You seem to be arguing from the standpoint that souls have a very real and pervasive connection to the 'self' or the individual. Souls are undoubtedly real in the POE world, but it does not fall out ipso facto that souls have a necessary connection to personal-identity. If most/all souls have no recollection of the afterlife even after reincarnation or Awakening, then we can make a Lockean argument:

1. Take a body with a brain containing a certain psychology, certain memories, and a certain set of proclivities.

2. Transfer that brain to a new host, suppose the contents carry over.

3. If the contents carry over, I think it is common sense to say that the person also carries over.

Ergo, personal identity resides in the psychology, memories, proclivities, etc. and not in the specific body (or brain).

 

Now replace body with soul.

Transfer the psychology, memories, proclivities, etc. from one soul into another (empty soul, if possible).

The person resides in the soul which corresponds to their psychology, etc.

IF souls are shells which house certain traits, they're really no different from bodies or brains or minds or whatever real world analogy you want to make. I'm made up of a bunch of energy in reality, but when my mind perishes I have no reason to think I'm going to persist in the things that make me manifest corporeality, even if my energy will permeate through the world. Similarly, I'm made of star-matter, but /I/ am not a star, nor do I have any recollection of being those atoms in some far off entity. It's the content of the soul that matters, and if the afterlife or reincarnation damage that content, the soul being eternal is no different than the energy composing our bodies being eternal (unlikely as that may be). Now, there are lots of interesting questions that naturally arise: if souls only lose their memory upon reincarnation, are they in some sense the same person? I think we may more easily argue that they are the same soul, but in doing so we make a distinction between soul and person (such as the distinction we have between body and mind). But, these questions lay outside of my scope.

 

I don't know if it has been said definitively what souls themselves experience after death, but in the latest update we learned that souls can become vengeful simulacra of their former selves when they die via natural disaster, so it would seem that death in the natural sense, at the very least, has the potential to strip parts of people away or turn them into specters of who they once were. That is to say, souls don't seem immutably 'you' any more than bodies do.

 

Anyway, my point is: The question of value, soul versus body, isn't as cut and dry as I think you are making it out to be. Just because souls are "proven" to be real does not mean that (at least to the educated or introspective) souls are or ought to be valued more than bodies or what have you.