To the Mysoginist Writer in Bioware

[Gromnir]

"No. I actually showed her this thread and she said some people on this forum are incredibly dumb because she's had black friends when she lived abroad and she's always made fun of people with prejudices."

 

this might be better than the percentages shtick. 

 

the, "i have friends who are black," bit is so freaking rich.

 

bwahhahhhaahh!

 

lordy, we didn't think you would go there, but you did. classic. 

 

hey, go ahead and google "i have black friends." see what kinda funny stuff your search turns up. no, really.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bester]

Well she did have them, so what? Grow up.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Just not enough to romance them in a game.

[Gromnir]

the fact that she had (you is the one who used past tense, so that makes it even better) black friends is not an issue. you and her thinking it is meaningful that she had black friends is what is funny.

Well she did have them, so what? Grow up.

 

am recalling when we were teaching in europe we would frequent find our euro friends talking 'bout the shortcoming o' Americans. apparently we were stupid and fat and uncultured and a laundry list o' other shortcomings. we would remind folks that Gromnir were American and they would actually seem surprised. they were comfortable 'nuff 'round us that they didn't even think o' us as an American. "oh, we don't me you."  that made it better?

 

Gromnir has white friends who is racist. we can even like the racists. is often good folks and if they saw you were in need, they would give you the shirt off their back, regardless o' your color or creed. nevertheless, put them in charge o' hiring new employees and ask 'em why they didn't hire Mr. A, a seeming superior qualified minority candidate.  response is,"our more conservative clients won't react well to his accent, and and if it wasn't for affirmative action..."  is quote from a smart and funny guy who we would happily introduce our sister to if not for the fact that the guy don't even realize that he is racist. "oh, i don't blame them--it's not their fault that they didn't have the same educational and social advantages that we did." he can say such stuff with Gromnir in the room. we is the guy who didn't have the same social and educational advantages that he did.  we like the guy. it pisses us off more than a little that we like the guy. we has largely given up trying to get him to understand that he is a racist 'cause he just acts hurt when we point out when he is being racist. 

 

the other kinda racist "friends" is no better--the ones who say or do something racist, then need necessarily check to see if Gromnir caught 'em in the act. *eye roll* honestly we don't give a rat's fart worth o' concern when such happens. Gromnir acting indignant is not gonna make the guy with white guilt any less racist. when they clumsily try and retract racism or bend over backwards to avoid appearance o' racism, we can't help but feel some small amount o' pity. 

 

regardless, we is certain that we has been held up as an example o' the minority friend that proves that a racist... isn't. y'know, 'cause we is educated and don't like rap music and 'cause we don't constantly make everything 'bout race. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps thanks to bruce and bester... and now Gromnir, we is getting way off topic. is about bioware writers being misogynistic, yes?  not anymore. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by Gromnir

[Bester]

LoL, whiny black upper class guy. I went to school in Belgium where I was the only white guy in a ghetto neighborhood. Experienced more racism from blacks and arabs than you could ever imagine. Yet I don't ever feel the need to complain and whine and call black and arabs racists, etc. In fact you can't ever hear me talk about these things in real life cause I don't give a ****. I bet it's all you ever talk about with your black n white world views (the evil white man oppressing you in the office, oh lawd). Your problem is simple - you're a whiny little crybaby. If it wasn't this, you'd be complaining about environment and about people who eat meat. Man up, grow some balls.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Bester

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

For me if a person says that because they claim they don't find people of different races attractive that would be a lie  and racist IMO. Beauty is beauty and this is not defined by race

 

 

Do you date only because of how hot the girl is? That is kind of shallow, you know.

 

Also, to answer your previous question, I don't know what gave you the idea that I didn't like romances, cause I actually do dig them if they are well written. I guess there's a fat lonely woman inside of me somewhere. Not that any of the Bio romances are well written. I'm actually trying out a few of the romance mods for BG2 right now and "Fade" is actually okay, 6/10.

 

 

No offense but your "friend" comes across as raving homophobic racist. Even if that's not her intention. She is a paradigm of the worst type of Romance person

 

If she really is your friend what you have done is belittle her and make her look absolutely stupid, you  clearly don't respect her to post something like that. That's not how a friend treats a friend

 

Also of course you initially have to  be attracted to someone to date them? Surly in the beginning of a relationship that's a factor?

 

 

No. I actually showed her this thread and she said some people on this forum are incredibly dumb because she's had black friends when she lived abroad and she's always made fun of people with prejudices.

 

Also, she's a really kind person. She just doesn't get turned on by black people and bisexual men and there's nobody to blame, she lives a happy life. Yet in here she was called all kinds of insults, so look who's prejudiced.

 

I think it's because a lot of people in here are locked into a certain way of thinking and lack openness of mind. I don't blame them, you can't ask a dog to count to 10 just like you can't ask these people to understand things that are beyond their cultural environment which they have never left in their whole life. They think their environment is alpha and omega and that theirs is the only right way to think, while in real life there's many other sorts of realities.

 

I lived in many countries and speak many languages, so I guess I'm more privileged than they are. We're just on completely different levels here. Le sigh.

 

 

So I'm going you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not Trolling or trying to get a reaction from people and that you are being serious and respond accordingly

 

As you know I am promancer so I can understand someone not wanting to Romance  someone who they cant identify with. Part of a Romance option is some sort of connection. For example I have Romanced Viconia, Morrigan and Isabella. But  I have never played a female character who has dated a gay female option

 

I have no issue with anyone else doing this but for me my RP experience, which includes Romance, needs to resonate with me.

 

So as far as your friend is concerned all I would ask is  " what is the reason she doesn't find black men attractive"

 

In South Africa when I have asked people I know "why wouldn't you date a black women that you think is attractive " ( and this also applies to black people dating white people ) I hear a variety of reasons and justifications. I don't believe most of it because end of the day the real reason is a historical view that "dating across the racial line is wrong" and some people have this almost subconscious and engrained perspective that inter-racial dating is on some level not acceptable. But at the root cause its because they have been raised a certain way and told " you need to date within your own racial group" even if they can't articulate the reason why

[Chilloutman]

I am siding with Bester on this, maybe just for panic reaction our white knights getting. This thread will live long and strong. PS I would dig date any chick if she is hot, but I prefer upper class asian/latino mix if I can choose xD

[Gromnir]

LoL, whiny black upper class guy. I went to school in Belgium where I was the only white guy in a ghetto neighborhood. Experienced more racism from blacks and arabs than you could ever imagine. Yet I don't ever feel the need to complain and whine and call black and arabs racists, etc. In fact you can't ever hear me talk about these things in real life cause I don't give a ****. I bet it's all you ever talk about with your black n white world views (the evil white man oppressing you in the office, oh lawd). Your problem is simple - you're a whiny little crybaby. If it wasn't this, you'd be complaining about environment and about people who eat meat. Man up, grow some balls.

again, not black and about as far away from upper class as is possible. how many times we gotta let you know we ain't black before it sinks in? you is so dogged on this and we can't explain the origin.

 

oh well, poor white kid growing up in the ghetto and suffering more racism than we can imagine sounds far more whiny than anything we has posted. am trying to decide if that is counting more as hypocrisy, irony or just plain stupidity on your part to not recognize that your complaint 'bout Gromnir followed right after your little hard knocks for bester tale. 

 

you need a tissue and a chance to compose self?

 

 

btw, we thinks we kinda made clear that we ain't suffering oppression in the office. some o' our colleagues don't even think o' us as a minority and others clear forget that we is til after they say something stoopid. is like our euro friends who didn't seem to see us as American. Gromnir ain't poor educated. we don't talk funny, quote che guevera, or think oj were innocent. sure, we look different, but is amazing how folks can kinda ignore that kinda stuff. 

 

bester is in his own little world now... is probably his way to try and get himself out o' the horrible hole he dug with his hypothetical racist and homophobic girlfriend. and we got absolutely no idea how the tale o' woe o' how you suffered at the hands o' blacks and arabs is 'posed to make us think your girlfriend is less racist or that bioware is more misogynist. is it 'posed to makes us think that you is a racist but that you got reasons for it? am suspecting you think you made some kinda relevant point, but am not seeing it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

I am siding with Bester on this, maybe just for panic reaction our white knights getting. This thread will live long and strong. PS I would dig date any chick if she is hot, but I prefer upper class asian/latino mix if I can choose xD

 

But you can't expect people not to react emotionally when a post is made in way that is suppose to create emotion. There are many ways to make a point in a way that doesn't across as offensive

[BruceVC]

 

LoL, whiny black upper class guy. I went to school in Belgium where I was the only white guy in a ghetto neighborhood. Experienced more racism from blacks and arabs than you could ever imagine. Yet I don't ever feel the need to complain and whine and call black and arabs racists, etc. In fact you can't ever hear me talk about these things in real life cause I don't give a ****. I bet it's all you ever talk about with your black n white world views (the evil white man oppressing you in the office, oh lawd). Your problem is simple - you're a whiny little crybaby. If it wasn't this, you'd be complaining about environment and about people who eat meat. Man up, grow some balls.

again, not black and about as far away from upper class as is possible. how many times we gotta let you know we ain't black before it sinks in? you is so dogged on this and we can't explain the origin.

 

oh well, poor white kid growing up in the ghetto and suffering more racism than we can imagine sounds far more whiny than anything we has posted. am trying to decide if that is counting more as hypocrisy, irony or just plain stupidity on your part to not recognize that your complaint 'bout Gromnir followed right after your little hard knocks for bester tale. 

 

you need a tissue and a chance to compose self?

 

 

btw, we thinks we kinda made clear that we ain't suffering oppression in the office. some o' our colleagues don't even think o' us as a minority and others clear forget that we is til after they say something stoopid. is like our euro friends who didn't seem to see us as American. Gromnir ain't poor educated. we don't talk funny, quote che guevera, or think oj were innocent. sure, we look different, but is amazing how folks can kinda ignore that kinda stuff. 

 

bester is in his own little world now... is probably his way to try and get himself out o' the horrible hole he dug with his hypothetical racist and homophobic girlfriend. and we got absolutely no idea how the tale o' woe o' how you suffered at the hands o' blacks and arabs is 'posed to make us think your girlfriend is less racist or that bioware is more misogynist. is it 'posed to makes us think that you is a racist but that you got reasons for it? am suspecting you think you made some kinda relevant point, but am not seeing it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Gromnir I have asked you this before and you didn't want to answer, but  what minority group are you? I respect the fact you don't feel its relevant but you can see how it creates certain confusion and assumptions. I also assumed you were African American but if you are not then I would have to guess you are Latino? But if you don't want to answer that's also fine, it won't change the fact in any respect  that sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't

[Chilloutman]

 

I am siding with Bester on this, maybe just for panic reaction our white knights getting. This thread will live long and strong. PS I would dig date any chick if she is hot, but I prefer upper class asian/latino mix if I can choose xD

 

But you can't expect people not to react emotionally when a post is made in way that is suppose to create emotion. There are many ways to make a point in a way that doesn't across as offensive

 

 

Dude, this is internet. And Bester is known troll

[BruceVC]

 

 

I am siding with Bester on this, maybe just for panic reaction our white knights getting. This thread will live long and strong. PS I would dig date any chick if she is hot, but I prefer upper class asian/latino mix if I can choose xD

 

But you can't expect people not to react emotionally when a post is made in way that is suppose to create emotion. There are many ways to make a point in a way that doesn't across as offensive

 

 

Dude, this is internet. And Bester is known troll

 

 

But is he a Troll all the time?

 

I don't know as he has raised some debatable and interesting points in this post of his?

[TheChris92]

I don't think it's worth wasting time analyzing romances in Bioware game, because said romances are written on the level of pulp fiction.

You take that back, sir! Pulp Fiction is one of the greatest masterpieces ever to behold the screen! Fight me in real life, I say! I challenge thee to fisticuffs

[Longknife]

I'mma go out on a wild and crazy fringe-like idea here....

 

And suggest that the failings of the games she named wasn't a result of a writer being purposefully misogynistic towards women, but rather the writer just so happened to be a dude, and as a dude, had little clue what women would or would not want in a romantic partner, thus he wrote some romantic partners that are sometimes viewed as unappealing or sub-par, and seldomly wrote them compared to how many female romantic partners he wrote. This combined with the fact that the game's target demographic is men and thus any voiced concern on behalf of the writer himself that maybe he's not so good with writing male love interests for women would likely be silenced by a project director with statements like "don't sweat the small stuff, that's hardly a priority for this project so it's fine as-is," and yeah, there you go: limited romance options for female characters.

   To remedy it, she should simply be more vocal and encourage other female gamers to be vocal about their existence within the gaming demographic, while we should all be more vocal in voicing desire for better writers for video games in general. (cept Obsidian, they pro) Respectful letters written to the company would help with this.

 

 

 

Or we could go with her theory that the writer has an intentional and personal vendetta against anything with a vagina and instead voice the desire for better romantic partners with a more dramatic, conspiracy theorist-esque tone while embarassingly failing to provide reasons why a black guy qualifies as a bad romance partner beyond "he's black," thus distracting from the overall message entirely and making the author rather difficult for readers to sympathize with. That works too.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

I am siding with Bester on this, maybe just for panic reaction our white knights getting. This thread will live long and strong. PS I would dig date any chick if she is hot, but I prefer upper class asian/latino mix if I can choose xD

 

But you can't expect people not to react emotionally when a post is made in way that is suppose to create emotion. There are many ways to make a point in a way that doesn't across as offensive

 

 

Dude, this is internet. And Bester is known troll

 

 

But is he a Troll all the time?

 

I don't know as he has raised some debatable and interesting points in this post of his?

 

 

But then you are nitpicking. If someone doesnt like to date black guy doesnt mean he/she is racist. Preference is not same as hate

[Qistina]

i laughed reading....

 

My country is multiracial, we have Malay, Chinese, Indian, indegenious, ect...if a girl/boy don't like any of the races to become her/his boyfriend/girlfriend, it is not racist. It's normal

 

Why would someone want to force someone to like a person by using racism issue? It doesn't work that way

[Gromnir]

 

 

Gromnir I have asked you this before and you didn't want to answer, but  what minority group are you? I respect the fact you don't feel its relevant but you can see how it creates certain confusion and assumptions. I also assumed you were African American but if you are not then I would have to guess you are Latino? But if you don't want to answer that's also fine, it won't change the fact in any respect  that sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't

 

we went and used the tedious search engine and discovered that the last time you asked, we gave an answer. 

 

is not a secret or anything, but we don't think it matters... or at least we don't believe it should matter. and as we did already tell you last time you asked, you can now go digging with the horrible arsed search function and Feel our Pain.

 

see, now that is whiny. not bester level o' whiny, but we don't quite have the knack for martyrdom.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

i laughed reading....

 

My country is multiracial, we have Malay, Chinese, Indian, indegenious, ect...if a girl/boy don't like any of the races to become her/his boyfriend/girlfriend, it is not racist. It's normal

 

Why would someone want to force someone to like a person by using racism issue? It doesn't work that way

figures chil would like

 

*eye roll*

 

actual issue is not as you suggest. we addressed earlier and noted that preferring a specific aggregate o' physical features is not, in and of itself, racist. regardless, the hypothetical girl o' bester's genesis post claimed it were misogynistic that bioware did not offer her an alternative to a black male romance partner. 

 

...

 

all on the same page now?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Chilloutman]

 

i laughed reading....

 

My country is multiracial, we have Malay, Chinese, Indian, indegenious, ect...if a girl/boy don't like any of the races to become her/his boyfriend/girlfriend, it is not racist. It's normal

 

Why would someone want to force someone to like a person by using racism issue? It doesn't work that way

figures chil would like

 

*eye roll*

 

actual issue is not as you suggest. we addressed earlier and noted that preferring a specific aggregate o' physical features is not, in and of itself, racist. regardless, the hypothetical girl o' bester's genesis post claimed it were misogynistic that bioware did not offer her an alternative to a black male romance partner. 

 

...

 

all on the same page now?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Ehh no? I dont agree with neither Bester or you. Whats problem that she want more than black guy to date? Compared to what guys get.

[Sofaking]

"from a smart and funny guy who we would happily introduce our sister to if not for the fact that the guy don't even realize that he is racist. "
 

 

I'm totally not a racist... just saying.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Sofaking

[BruceVC]

i laughed reading....

 

My country is multiracial, we have Malay, Chinese, Indian, indegenious, ect...if a girl/boy don't like any of the races to become her/his boyfriend/girlfriend, it is not racist. It's normal

 

Why would someone want to force someone to like a person by using racism issue? It doesn't work that way

 

Is it really normal that people don't date other races or is it the fact you live in a conservative country that says its normal and you have convinced yourself that's the way it is?

 

I'm not attacking you, I want to understand your perspective

[Sofaking]

 

Gromnir I have asked you this before and you didn't want to answer, but  what minority group are you?

 

From the way he posts i always assumed he was some sort of schizophrenic dwarf.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Gromnir I have asked you this before and you didn't want to answer, but  what minority group are you? I respect the fact you don't feel its relevant but you can see how it creates certain confusion and assumptions. I also assumed you were African American but if you are not then I would have to guess you are Latino? But if you don't want to answer that's also fine, it won't change the fact in any respect  that sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't

 

we went and used the tedious search engine and discovered that the last time you asked, we gave an answer. 

 

is not a secret or anything, but we don't think it matters... or at least we don't believe it should matter. and as we did already tell you last time you asked, you can now go digging with the horrible arsed search function and Feel our Pain.

 

see, now that is whiny. not bester level o' whiny, but we don't quite have the knack for martyrdom.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Okay I will find it, what thread was it under? I only remember the question I asked you and not the topic

[Fearabbit]

So, let's recapitulate..

Clarification: nobody thinks your friend is racist because she prefers white men. But your post didn't read "I just prefer white men so that didn't work for me", it read "but he was BLACK so guess I'm skipping that huh".

You can try and sugarcoat it now, but that is just an offensive statement.

 

And don't forget the context: it's apparently mysogynistic to include only a black man as a romance.

Mysogynistic! It shows contempt for women that this character was made black! Think about that for a second.

 

The implication here is that your friend demands that her preferences be catered to (white beefcake, not whiny emo or black guy) and that all women think like that and it's mysogynistic if you don't comply.

She ignores the fact that there are black women who play games and do want a black romance option. She ignores that some women like softies.

She thinks that she is the typical woman and calls a writer mysogynistic because he didn't cater to her preferences. That's what makes her sound like a horrible person.

 

But like I said, the numbers do support her main argument. And I agree that there are way too many romance options for guys - it's such obvious wish fulfillment and it's distracting.

(And yet none of them were cool nerdy girls with pixie haircuts who like comics and indie music. Misandrist?)

[BruceVC]

 

So, let's recapitulate..

Clarification: nobody thinks your friend is racist because she prefers white men. But your post didn't read "I just prefer white men so that didn't work for me", it read "but he was BLACK so guess I'm skipping that huh".

You can try and sugarcoat it now, but that is just an offensive statement.

 

And don't forget the context: it's apparently mysogynistic to include only a black man as a romance.

Mysogynistic! It shows contempt for women that this character was made black! Think about that for a second.

 

The implication here is that your friend demands that her preferences be catered to (white beefcake, not whiny emo or black guy) and that all women think like that and it's mysogynistic if you don't comply.

She ignores the fact that there are black women who play games and do want a black romance option. She ignores that some women like softies.

She thinks that she is the typical woman and calls a writer mysogynistic because he didn't cater to her preferences. That's what makes her sound like a horrible person.

 

But like I said, the numbers do support her main argument. And I agree that there are way too many romance options for guys - it's such obvious wish fulfillment and it's distracting.

(And yet none of them were cool nerdy girls with pixie haircuts who like comics and indie music. Misandrist?)

 

 

That's a good post that summarizes the crux of the issue that most of us have with the post, well said