Your PoE Pros and Cons: 5 and 5

[Sensuki]

Did you like them when you were 12 years old ?

BG2 was written for teenagers.

[LordCrash]

Am I the only one who didn't like any of the romance options in BG2? Viconia was a captial B, Aerie was a frumpy ****, Viconia was annoying and the other one was forgetable.

 

You forgot Jaheira...

 

@Sensuki

No, it wasn't.

Edited June 26, 2014 by LordCrash

[Sofaking]

Did you like them when you were 12 years old ?

 

BG2 was written for teenagers.

 

Regardless of age demographics, it doesn't mean they couldn't have written likeable characters.

[LordCrash]

 

Did you like them when you were 12 years old ?

 

BG2 was written for teenagers.

 

Regardless of age demographics, it doesn't mean they couldn't have written likeable characters.

 

 

Characters shouldn't be likeable but realistic. Writing likeable characters is exactly what you want to do IF you write for teenagers.

[Sofaking]

 

Am I the only one who didn't like any of the romance options in BG2? Viconia was a captial B, Aerie was a frumpy ****, Viconia was annoying and the other one was forgetable.

 

You forgot Jaheira...

 

@Sensuki

No, it wasn't.

 

 

Oops, I accidently put Viconia twice. Jaheira was annoying. 

[Zombra]

I'm planning to write such a list AFTER I get my hands on the game. I see little point in scoring mental constructs of how the game actually plays.

 

Well, after release your opinion won't be as valuable as there will be actual reviews to fulfill my curiosity.  Hell, by that time I'll be playing the game and judging for myself.

 

This is your opportunity to weigh in on the "state of the game" now - it's valuable information for people like me who haven't been following the various controversies.  It might also give any devs reading a good 'thumbnail' of what's important in the players' minds right now.

 

Some prefer to just wait and take whatever they get - others prefer to have a conversation about it while there's still time to change a few things.  Personally, I'm interested in your opinion.  You sure you don't want to share?  

[Sofaking]

 

 

Did you like them when you were 12 years old ?

 

BG2 was written for teenagers.

 

Regardless of age demographics, it doesn't mean they couldn't have written likeable characters.

 

 

Characters shouldn't be likeable but realistic. Writing likeable characters is exactly what you want to do IF you write for teenagers.

 

 

If I'm going to bother with a romace option, the character should be likeable. Some people like those types of personalities, personally I found them off putting. Seriously, not every female character written had to a broken personality whose only fix was the main characters D.

[Sensuki]

I never liked Jaheira (or Anomen) as a character in BG2, but I liked the Aerie and Viconia romances when I was 13. YMMV.

 

I liked Scooby Doo the cartoon as a kid as well. Going back and trying to watch an episode as an adult did_not_work and I wish I never did it xD. The only cartoon that is still as good today as it was when I watched as a kid were the first five episodes of Gargoyles. After that the show is a terrible episodic, but the first five episodes are still awesome.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Stun]

 

Am I the only one who didn't like any of the romance options in BG2? Viconia was a captial B, Aerie was a frumpy ****, Viconia was annoying and the other one was forgetable.

 

You forgot Jaheira...

 

And Anomen. <----there's your catastrophic writing failure right there. Anomen is probably the most formidable argument that can ever be made against the inclusion of romances in video games. Edited June 26, 2014 by Stun

[Sofaking]

 

 

Am I the only one who didn't like any of the romance options in BG2? Viconia was a captial B, Aerie was a frumpy ****, Viconia was annoying and the other one was forgetable.

 

You forgot Jaheira...

 

And Anomen. <----there's your catastrophic writing failure right there. Anomen is probably the single most impregnable argument against romances in video games.

 

 

I think you mean Annoyman.

[LordCrash]

I never liked Jaheira (or Anomen) as a character in BG2, but I liked the Aerie and Viconia romances when I was 13. YMMV.

 

I liked Scooby Doo the cartoon as a kid as well. Going back and trying to watch an episode as an adult did_not_work and I wish I never did it xD. The only cartoon that is still as good today as it was when I watched as a kid were the first five episodes of Gargoyles. After that the show is a terrible episodic, but the first five episodes are still awesome.

BG2 and Scooby Doo have nothing in common.

 

 

I personally don't think that Jaheira was annoying. She was actually written quite well (and not for teenagers). And she didn't have a "broken personality". She was just griefing which is something completely different.

 

 

Hm, I think we should go back to topic anyway.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by LordCrash

[Sensuki]

I think you're missing my point?

 

e: fair enough

 

I don't really think there's a specific con to PE for me. There's stuff I'm concerned about (whether the fill-in art for the UI will look good, whether the controls/interfaces etc etc will feel the same, spell FX direction) but for the most part it seems to be pretty on the money as a spiritual successor to the IE games.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[LordCrash]

I think you're missing my point?

I just don't like your method trying to make something up by some weird comparisons. 

 

Let's just agree to disagree about the "BG2 is written for teenagers" issue.

[BruceVC]

 

I think you're missing my point?

Let's just agree to disagree about the "BG2 is written for teenagers" issue.

 

 

I would rather he retracted that comment, its actually a little condescending for  people like me who thought BG2 was the best RPG I have ever played. It implies that people who loved BG2 have a juvenile understanding and perspective of enjoyment

 

 

Sorry Sensuki, you probably didn't mean it like that but that's how I am interpreting what you are really saying

[Sensuki]

BG2 is one of the best RPGs I have ever played as well, but the romance writing was very juvenile and it was a PG 13 game. The gameplay however is fantastic and the main story is very good.

[Stun]

Well, it did officially receive a Teen rating from the ESRB. But I'm not sure that means anything. There most definitely WAS plenty of mature content in BG2. (or did we forget that Imoen was Tortured?)

 

In any case, the comparison to friggin Scooby-Doo cartoons is ridiculous. I also can't get myself to watch any of the TV shows I used to love as a kid. But I sure as hell still get tons and tons of pleasure Replaying BG2!

Edited June 26, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I hope the voice actors will be good in PoE, especially with the main antagonist. Sarevok and Irenicus were fantastic. Especially with David Warner as Irenicus.

[MasterPrudent]

I hope the voice actors will be good in PoE, especially with the main antagonist. Sarevok and Irenicus were fantastic. Especially with David Warner as Irenicus.

To my mind the most important voice to get right is the narrator's (one of the most interesting things that the e3 stuff revealed is that there is one).

[LordCrash]

BG2 is one of the best RPGs I have ever played as well, but the romance writing was very juvenile and it was a PG 13 game. The gameplay however is fantastic and the main story is very good.

 

The rating of the game has nothing to do with the romance writing. And I still disagree about it being juvenile. Bioware's newer games are much, much more juvenile than BG2's writing ever was tbh. You could (to some extend) call the romance writing of BG2 "overcomplicated" or "dramatized" and you could also call it "annoying" if you don't like that kind of "problems driven writing". But that doesn't make it juvenile. Maybe we have different views on what "juvenile" and "written for teenagers" mean though.

 

How about explaining why exactly you think romance writing in BG2 is juvenile?

Edited June 26, 2014 by LordCrash

[Sensuki]

In any case, the comparison to friggin Scooby-Doo cartoons is ridiculous. I also can't get myself to watch any of the TV shows I used to love as a kid. But I sure as hell still get tons and tons of pleasure Replaying BG2!

 

How? I thought Scooby Doo was awesome when I was a kid, I tried to watch it again as a teenager and recognized it's many flaws. The same happened for BG2's romance writing. I remember loving the romances as a 13 year old, but as an adult, I think they're pretty lame.

 

 

 

Bioware's newer games are much, much more juvenile than BG2's writing ever was tbh.

 

I agree, it's sad isn't it.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Nonek]

For:

1. Souls - The emphasis on Souls, their nature and potency is a simple but very effective method of explaining many plot points, grounding the setting in its own consistency and prompting further exploration. A very good idea to expand upon in my own humble opinion.

2. Culture - Setting the differing races and species into more organic cultures, rather than the hackneyed racial roles we have seen so many times, is a very fertile source of interesting situations and differences. It also has a nice smack of realism about it that most fantasy worlds lack to their detriment, after all the fantastic cannot bloom without a thorough grounding in the mundane.

3. Species - Having the Dwarves, Elves and OohMama's being seperate sapient species, with their own racial divisions is an interesting take on these cliche'd creatures. Usually they function as barely disguised human archetypes that in my opinion are not really needed or add anything to a setting that races of humanity cannot. However their obvious seperation from humanity, and how they came to integrate into largely human cultures raises interesting questions to explore and expand upon, which I personally look forward to.

4. Animancy - In a world where Souls exist as an absolute and somewhat manipulatable entity then it makes sense that we find individuals trying to examine, catalogue and unlock their secrets. It bears striking parallels to the work of Alchemists such as Dee whom sought to understand and become closer to God, through the acting of purifying base materials, and thus making them closer to Him. There is such inherent possibility, promise and potential in this aspect especially in a world that is moving forward into what seems to be a renaissance.

5. No romances - If only other developers could stand firm and simply get rid of this sickening feature, and ignore the people who clamour for it, we would have far more interesting, well developed and authentic characters. Characters who do not need the protagonists attentions to fix them, do not roll over and open their legs after a few correct dialogue choices, consider friendship and familiarity more important than flirting and most of all actually have something to say and do outside of their romance arc.

 

Against:

1. Rogues - I still have issues with their nomenclature, I would simply rename them to more effectively match their use as the superior Fighters of the group. Assassin, Weaponmaster, Killer etcetera.

2. Durability - Really enjoyed this as an aspect of preparation in for instance Betrayal at Krondor, and the suggested Durability system sounded very fine to me. A pity it's gone.

3. Combat Animations - Not really a gripe but more of a wish, playing such games as Severance, Revenant and Sacred I quite like the wide variety of combat maneouvres and finishers, they add a certain something to the melee. Hope they're in a future installment of Poe, but not at the expense of the more important features, that Mr Sawyer rightfully prioritises.

4. Attributes - I'm not quite sure what they are or represent, I can go by the results and what they give me but I would still like some more clarity as these are the building blocks with which we will interact with the world of Poe.

5. Elves - Obviously.

 

Edit: Indeed Scooby Doo was much better.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Nonek

[Stun]

How about explaining why exactly you think romance writing in BG2 is juvenile?

I've been giving this some thought because I, too, see a couple of the romances in BG2 as juvenile. It's kinda hard to explain. For one thing It could just be crap writing that comes across as immature. Aerie's romance, for example, is classic teen Emo plugged into the forgotten realms setting. There's really no other way to describe it. Her romance forces the Player character to play the role of a high school guidance councilor.

 

And Anomen's Romance? Anomen is not a man. He's an insecure Boy. The type of insecure boy that tugs at the typical teen age girl's heart strings, and her belief that she has the power to... CHANGE HER BOYFRIEND and make him Better! Fittingly, the game lets her succeed. I suppose that's quite an appealing love story...if you're a 16 year old girl.

 

 

The other two Romances (Jaheira's and Viconia's) are not juvenile at all IMO. I'd even go so far as to say that Jaheira's romance is mature and complex enough to be completely misunderstood by your average adult male. And Viconia's romance is....College dorm room stuff. It's her telling you stories about murder and revenge and all the wild sex she had growing up.

 

Unfortunately though, the underlying flaw in every single one of the BG2 romances is that mature or not, they're simply mediocre writing on display. As much as people praise David Gaider as some industry Poet Laureate, he's nothing of the sort. All his material is cringingly cliché. I don't think I've ever read a single unique idea from him.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Stun

[Mor]

Zombra's Cons

• I remember reading that every class type uses magical soul powers.  Sometimes I prefer characters who hate magic and refuse to use it.
• The whole soul thing in general.  It's the lynchpin of this new setting, but will I think it's cool or silly?

Keep in mind that world setting info is for our benefit, and just because we know that under the hood there is concept of souls, that everyone has as soul, and all powers steam from them, doesn't change one bit how people in the world see this.

 

The vast majority of people be ignorant or rejecting those facts. I imagine that nist Fighter won't see them self as using "soul powers", but using damn abilities.. and can easily be superstitious of magic wielders like mages ..

[Mannock]

 

Unfortunately though, the underlying flaw in every single one of the BG2 romances is that mature or not, they're simply mediocre writing on display. As much as people praise David Gaider as some industry Poet Laureate, he's nothing of the sort. All his material is cringingly cliché. I don't think I've ever read a single unique idea from him.

 

 

Did David Gaider write any of the romances in BG2? I know Luke Kristjansen was the main writer of the Jaheira romance.

[Mor]

 

2) The Bottomless Inventory. It stinks of the modern dumb-down disease. RPGs are supposed to be all about choice and consequence and inventory limits are a part of that. For example, If you create a party of really (physically) weak characters, -or- if your party only consists of 1 or 2 characters, you should NOT be able to haul around as much loot as a full party of strong-backed warriors. Period. I am disappointed that Obsidian has decided that "ease of use" has to trump simple reality on this one.

Initially, I felt the same, but now I see it as a matter of perspective. In PE the dev choose to focus on tactics, your inventory is a limited resource (packs) and effected by party size and character "strength"(might). Only instead of the mighty intellectual exercise of shuffling your inventory with every piece of scrap you encounter, based on size/weight to cost ratio which is wankers, mind numbing, time filler exercise that should have been automated ages ago. we will be focusing on the tactical aspect of what we need to deal with encounters. (based on what we know the creatures etc)