Which class are animancers?

[Nonek]

I'd not object to such a scenario at all, however with the emphasis on combat (that a BG like demands) it justs seems unfeasible at the moment to have a non combat class. One susupects this is why the Thief has become another more skilled Fighter, rather than a burglar and master of the cityscape. Perhaps when the world of Poe has advanced into an Arcanum like period we might see such an adventuring professor, but for the moment it seems like the cipher and Wizard are the applied and immediate options for those interested in Animancy.

[Failion]

Hmmm how do you guess the plot with everything they shown us? I'm Guessing back in pillars of eternity beowulf days, thousands of years ago. Shamans would infuse a fragments of heroes soul in the pillars we see. Basically the pillars are a celebration of culture and life. Recently some nerd animancer fiddled around with the pillars and damaged them. Now the pillars are leaking like the fukishima reactor with wierd bizarro soul fragments of long gone heroes. Making portion of the world populace sick and experience soul anomaly. The pillars leakage also caused soul the whole soul reincarnation to go haywire and breed a species of fragment soul monsters. This alien monster collective resides in the deep caves of the world and started from soul fragments infusing themselves to mushrooms and at the same time killing the animancer scientist dude experimenting with the mushrooms. Your character starts humble and gets involved with the politics in the world and stumps a great evil and conflicts spawned from the pillars the end.

[anameforobsidian]

I don't think there can always be a separation between classes, interests, and methods in a game that is somewhat rigidly class-based.  I could see multiple methods trying to tackle the same problem, i.e. what are souls.  The priests could ask the gods, the mages could try to extract it and cut it with magic, the cyphers directly manipulate it through training.

 

The problem with class-based fantasy is that the methods a character uses to approach/alter the world determine their powers.  A class is comprised of powers, and each power corresponds to class(es).  Class is a rigid concept, an immutable law of nature in class-based worlds.  It's exacerbated in this game, because there's almost no overlap between class based powers and skills are separate.  The class-power relationship is important for animancy, because we know the study of animancy grants valuable combat powers; the creation of golems / the undead / the ability to steal weak souls.

 

So, if animancy was an interest entirely divorced by class, the members of different disciplines who studied animancy would either have their own animancy abilities (because class alters the physical world), and thus be a subclass.  Or, if the soul could manipulated in similar ways through multiple methods, then the members of classes interested in animancy would share powers; something more like a prestige class or a skill.  A last alternative would be that, an interest in animancy granted no powers whatsoever, but that's already been firmly disproven.

 

This distinction can lead to some minor edge cases.  Suppose there was one of the flesh eating undead who sought an evil PCs help strengthening their soul's tie to the body / keeping them from death.  Would a bookish fighter be able to help the NPC?  A cypher immersed in mysticism?  A wizard who studies animancy?  If the answer is different for any of these, then animancy has to correspond to class.

 

This discussion makes me want a non-magical animancer scholar class T-T a Loremaster~ a 100% out of combat class

This is the wrong game for a non-combat class, but I do love them deeply and truly.

Edited June 23, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[Lephys]

Chosen one story lines are so played out. Maybe it worked for the Nameless One in PS:T, but I'm hoping for something different.

You don't have to be the Chosen One just to be not-unspecial.

 

In a world full of soul magic, one would think you need more than just some farmboy protagonist who tries really hard and handles some huge situation if you want to maintain interest.

 

I personally find that stories in which the protagonist has some unique "mutation" of an ability/power, then simply uniquely figures out how to use that to handle things, are more interesting than "Well, he just worked real hard and got really, really lucky." There are just only so many believable ways out of a given situation when you're just some average joe. Say "Oh, he's SO skilled with his weapon, he just uses that and gets out of there!", and your bordering on unbelievable. Say "Oh, he just never gets into such a dire situation that he can't get out of it via regular means" and you're doing the same.

 

If the world's going to throw non-mundane stuff at the protagonist, the most interesting way to prevent him from automagically surviving in it is to give him an interesting tool. Not necessarily a prophecy, or a "no one can kill these things, but YOU can, because you have the KILLTHESETHINGS power!". Just, something interesting. If the whole world's magical, making the protagonist magical doesn't exactly make him the chosen one. There's surely some unique creature out in the wilds that's different from most other creatures, and yet it doesn't automatically go around saving worlds.

[Nonek]

 

 A last alternative would be that, an interest in animancy granted no powers whatsoever, but that's already been firmly disproven.

 

 

As far as i'm aware Animancers do not have any inherent powers, from the descriptions given they seem to experiment with natural (to Eora) laws and produce effects, not develop powers due to their field of study. I assume copper and Adra play large roles in their work, a thorough study of all things Engwithan, and as much time as they can spend with spiritually potent individuals, observing and noting down any peculiarities. I agree that a background or the aid of a Cipher or Wizard might change and speed their research, but from what Mr Sawyer has written it does seem to be a field of study that is entirely divorced from class.

 

However that's only my interpretation based on the limited knowledge we possess, and it may be entirely misguided I admit. However it's certainly one of the aspects i'm most looking forward to in Poe.

[Mor]

I think Animancer sounds about as much as a field of study as Cipher, a class name I didn't like very much because it's a specific field of study, rather than a general class description. Both names are a bit more specific than the other classes, but cover scholarly areas. I think it would make more sense to have a Scholar class, with Animancer and Cipher sub-classes, or branches in the skill tree.

Cipher are people with the innate ability to manipulate other souls, Cipher can have scholarly pursuits such as the field of Animancy. While Animancer are just researchers, they can help us understand how things work, improve them or emulate them (think RL ~Geneticist and Roboticist) but while they may regard runners, warriors or any in our case Cipher("mind hunters") as field of study, those are completely different things. Animancer on its own isn't a useful class in dungeon crawling adventure ..

 

EDIT:

This Q&A with JS might clarify what Animancy is:

 

You know, we've had discussions about guns and such, but what about other technological items? Are there pocket watches, or calculators, or the like? Is there such a thing as a fusion of technology and magic? I'd love to see how such a world would develop.

There are some clocks and a very small number of early watches. Animancers tend to be mechanical inventors and tinkerers since so much of animancy is only possible through technology. Animancy itself is not so much a fusion of technology and magic as it is a field of study that uses machines to examine essence, i.e. soul energy.

 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

Sure PCs should be special, but why does it have to be an inborn characteristic and not something achieved? Think about a lot of the really accomplished people from history, were they really imbued with something supernatural, or were they just a lot more ambitious, maniacally focused and luckier than their fellows?

 

Chosen one story lines are so played out. Maybe it worked for the Nameless One in PS:T, but I'm hoping for something different.

Just to state the obvious this is a fantasy setting, in a game focused on dungeon crawling adventurers, so accomplished people from generally real world history isn't the best comparison. However, I understand what you meant, it is the good ol' potential doesn't mean squat unless you work your ass off to do something with it. What I don't understand is what make you think its any different in PE world?

 

So what if we know that in PE people has souls, and souls has varying characteristics?

 

I know that its taboo topic in some places, but in the real world genetically speaking some people are born with certain advantages(or disadvantages). From obvious things like your height or skin conditions, to less obvious things like better muscle oxygen absorption or leaner and less muscular builds wich allows to run for longer distances, same goes for the contentious topic of intelligence we don't want to admit it but some people will be better at forming neural pathways etc..

 

On top of that there is nurture element. For example IQ scores for Africa are far lower then those for North America, however, baby born in Africa and raised in North America gets a huge IQ score bump, because its nutrition, education etc.. not genetics.

 

As far as I know nurture plays FAR FAR larger role into our development, but more importantly in the end its usually about grinding. The vast majority of people who think they can't do something or arn't good at it, its because they never really tried hard enough, no "pain" no gain, and the vast majority of those they consider "geniuses" are just people who had a head start.

 

There is nothing I seen that suggest everyone with strong soul gains automatically access to soul powers, let along mastery over them e.g. Wizards aren't born being masters of occult lore, it is something they need to achieve. So as far as soul power discussed in this thread, I don't see where your issue lays.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Mor

[nipsen]

I don't know. My impression was that what is called animancy is an attempt at objectively defining what some people do instinctively, or think of as religious activity, and so on. So a person in this world could, just guessing, go to a graveyard and touch the soul of a relative, gaining particular knowledge in a very specific context. And then leave it behind, thinking no more of it. It's a rite you do in respect of the dead, who actually exist, and therefore everything works great. And people have aversions to killing people for bad reasons their culture doesn't respect, and your connection to your ancestors and their values is a real physical size, so to speak, rather than something you do just for your own selfish sense of decency, etc. Shamans channel souls, help them coexist with the living. Ciphers might be beings partially living in the soul world, or having their physical self phasing through different realms.

 

So when animancy turns up as a discipline, what they could be talking about - wildly guessing - is that this is specifically the approach to soul magic that isn't cultural, instinctive or religious. But instead purely utilitarian. Perhaps doomed to cross a few barriers those limited by faith or respect for the dead won't, for all kinds of good reasons. After all, I think they've established that the soul is objectively a force that exists in Pillars. So evidently afterlife and birth/rebirth, or dissolution of souls, materialisation of them, must be very important. Whether it's shunned, feared and persecuted (i.e., witchcraft is real!). Or completely incorporated into the culture.

[Karkarov]

So when animancy turns up as a discipline, what they could be talking about - wildly guessing - is that this is specifically the approach to soul magic that isn't cultural, instinctive or religious. But instead purely utilitarian. Perhaps doomed to cross a few barriers those limited by faith or respect for the dead won't, for all kinds of good reasons. After all, I think they've established that the soul is objectively a force that exists in Pillars. So evidently afterlife and birth/rebirth, or dissolution of souls, materialisation of them, must be very important. Whether it's shunned, feared and persecuted (i.e., witchcraft is real!). Or completely incorporated into the culture.

All indications and reveals so far though actually show it to be far more in common with what we would call Dark Ages alchemy though.  Alchemy, if anyone forgot, was originally all about turning lead into gold and to some extent creating a "philosopher" stone that would contain all elements and be able to be used to cure all diseases and other insane was never gonna happen stuff.  Animancy seems to mostly be about trying to gain immortality through manipulation of the soul by purely scientific means. 

 

Remember souls are not these illusionary things only in our imagination in Eternity, they can be seen and possibly even have physical form.  It shouldn't be a surprise some sort of quasi science about manipulating them would crop up.  Think of Animancers more like the Eternity version of Nikolai Tesla.  They aren't doing "magic" they are just using science to manipulate a natural force.

[nipsen]

:D Any real scientist is like that, no? And it really seems very natural to be curious about a phenomena like that.

 

But I'm really drawn to the idea that there's an actual mystical element to it. That if you treat animancy as just a science, as something to control and shape to your liking, you're literally tempting the wrath of the gods.