Piracy or not?

[Gizmo]

No, they don't compete with anything. There are example of games that couldn't be pirated and still tanked in their sales. I remember when starforce was introduced, Prince of Persia: Two Thrones wasn't pirated for a whole year and it was still a failure to Ubisoft as the sales were underwhelming for them. Simcity was never pirated and they still failed miserably.

Of course they compete ; They compete when a company is selling access to their work on one site, and access to their work is given away indiscriminately on another site,(or several) other sites.

 

You seem to hold the genuine belief that payment for anything is just being polite.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about and you don't even know what saturating the market means, as it doesn't apply to digital distribution at all.

Do you honestly think that infinite [unpaid] duplication of a work does not devalue it? Or that the same does not obliterate the legitimate market for that work?

 

Why do you consider it significant that games fail even without DRM? Do you actually believe also that those games deserve no payment ~and yet should still be playable unpaid for?

(And that's justifiable to you?)

 

Please tell me in your own words why you believe [if you do] that anyone who "would never had paid for it anyway", should expect to be given it for free; to benefit from it without recompense for the creator; who only allows access of it to those willing to pay them for their skills?

Edited June 6, 2014 by Gizmo

[Sarex]

You do know that you're also spouting pure conjecture?

 

Are you ever going to reply to any post with more that one short sentence. I have not seen you yet adding anything useful to any thread.

 

To answer you question, the first part maybe but the rest no. If piracy was the big bad company killer Gromnir is painting it out to be then we would see all companies fail because of it. I haven't seen a company yet that failed because of piracy.

 

If your games aren't selling it means they aren't good enough, it doesn't mean that your game was pirated more then some other game that sold more numbers. Piracy is a constant, the more popular the game the more it will be pirated. The best way to look at it is to ignore the pirates, it's not like they will pirate one game but not the other, they won't really change the success of one game compared to the other.

[Gromnir]

 

Pure conjecture, you can neither prove that pirated games = lost sales, nor that those % would make a difference. The more likely reason is that those companies simply got too big for the games they sold to support them, ie. the bubble burst. I know that was the reason with interplay. It's all to easy to blame the pirates for failed businesses. If it was the pirates fault then all game companies would fail.

You do know that you're also spouting pure conjecture?

 

also, it is worth noting that we didn't blame the pirates for failure of interplay or others. we noted that game publishing is risky, and publishers is frequent spending money they don't have, or squeezing every dollar they can out of the games they has made... and they still fail. from perspective of shareholders and board members, lost money to pirates when you is hemorrhaging is gonna be unacceptable.

 

http://www.nam.org/Communications/Articles/2014/01/INTERNATIONAL-SOFTWARE-PIRACY-HAMPERING-MANUFACTURERS-IN-THE-US.aspx

 

http://www.ssrc.org/workspace/images/crm/new_publication_3/%7Bc4a69b1c-8051-e011-9a1b-001cc477ec84%7D.pdf

 

second link is excellent btw.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

also, it is worth noting that we didn't blame the pirates for failure of interplay or others. we noted that game publishing is risky, and publishers is frequent spending money they don't have, or squeezing every dollar they can out of the games they has made... and they still fail. from perspective of shareholders and board members, lost money to pirates when you is hemorrhaging is gonna be unacceptable.

 

http://www.nam.org/Communications/Articles/2014/01/INTERNATIONAL-SOFTWARE-PIRACY-HAMPERING-MANUFACTURERS-IN-THE-US.aspx

 

http://www.ssrc.org/workspace/images/crm/new_publication_3/%7Bc4a69b1c-8051-e011-9a1b-001cc477ec84%7D.pdf

 

second link is excellent btw.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yeah that is the issue there, it's not lost money.

 

-OF course they compete ; They compete when a company is selling access to their work on one site, and access to their work is given away indiscriminately on another site,(or several) other sites.

 

You seem to hold the genuine belief that payment for anything is just being polite.

 

-Do you honestly think that infinite [unpaid] duplication of a work does not devalue it? Or that the same does not obliterate the legitimate market for that work?

 

-Why do you consider it significant that game fail even without DRM; do you actually believe also that those games 'deserve' no payment ~and yet should still be playable unpaid for?

 

-Please tell me in your own words why you believe [if you do] that anyone who would never of paid for it anyway, should expect to be given it for free; to benefit from it without recompense for the creator of it; who only allows access of it to those willing to pay them for their skills?

 

-Again you seem to think that people who get it for free would pay for it if there was no free option, that is simply not true in every/most cases.

 

-When we are talking about digital distribution(where infinite copies are available), then yes it absolutely doesn't devalue it. Because the value is not measured the same as that of the physical good. Again you don't know what flooding the market means. You should read up on that.

 

-I don't understand what you tried to say here.

 

-Because it doesn't hurt the creator in any way you could imagine and it benefits the pirate.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

sure it is lost money. difficulty is in coming up with an exact figure that everybody agrees 'pon for how much is lost to pirates. the experts in our second link seem to agree that coming up with exact numbers is if not impossible, then prohibitive difficult. there is vast differences 'tween piracy costs and countermeasures in developed nations v. developing. there is also differences in cost 'tween the types o' information being pirated. coming up with exact numbers is as silly as is suggesting that every pirated copy equals a loss at US market rates.... which is what some experts has done in the past. 

 

that being said, only the most obtuse observers is gonna pretend that 'cause o' the difficulty o' quantification that piracy does not result in loses to publishers. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

Sure it does, but to the point of companies shutting down because of it? I think not.

[Gorth]

-When we are talking about digital distribution(where infinite copies are available), then yes it absolutely doesn't devalue it. Because the value is not measured the same as that of the physical good. Again you don't know what flooding the market means. You should read up on that.

Maybe devaluing isn't the right word, but "destroying it" is such a loaded, emotial word. It does remove a potential avenue of sale.

 

The market reacts to it in typical market economy fashion. It's now heading towards everything being software as service. There will not be downloadable products in the future, just a few influential corporations offering online accounts, giving access to play on their servers. Same is slowly happening in the movie industry with the likes of netflix. A sign of tomorrows digital distribution market.

 

In the case of gaming, it's the diversity and the prices that are going to suffer, because there will be fewer outlets offering competing products. Australia is a good example of what *could* happen, price fixing makes digitally distributed products between 50-100% more expensive (without any added cost of distribution) simply because of lack of competition (bless their little hearts at Gamersgate and GoG).

[ShadySands]

SimCity was actually pirated quite a bit. I remember reading about how it fed into the whole always online single player fiasco.

 

Didn't Iron Lore Entertainment (the Titan Quest guys) close in part because of piracy? Something along the lines of bad reviews/word of mouth because they made pirated copies intentionally buggy?

[Blarghagh]

I think Game Dev Tycoon is an interesting case. None of my friends would have heard about it if their clever way of dealing with pirates hadn't been reported on gaming websites. Now they all own it.

[Gizmo]

-Again you seem to think that people who get it for free would pay for it if there was no free option, that is simply not true in every/most cases.

You seem to think that I care if they would not pay for it. I've never given that impression. Their disinclination to fairly purchase the product has no bearing on the issue... it is only that they are not entitled to have it ~without purchasing it.

 

-When we are talking about digital distribution(where infinite copies are available), then yes it absolutely doesn't devalue it. Because the value is not measured the same as that of the physical good. Again you don't know what flooding the market means. You should read up on that.

Most people do not value what is plentiful and costs them nothing to get... By definition, an infinitely reproduced work that costs nothing is not valuable.

 

 

-I don't understand what you tried to say here.

You mentioned this:

________

There are example of games that couldn't be pirated and still tanked in their sales. I remember when starforce was introduced, Prince of Persia: Two Thrones wasn't pirated for a whole year and it was still a failure to Ubisoft as the sales were underwhelming for them. Simcity was never pirated and they still failed miserably.

________

And I ask why this seems important to you in this context? Why should any of us care if the games 'still tanked'?

 

-Because it doesn't hurt the creator in any way you could imagine and it benefits the pirate.

It doesn't matter they are not hurt (but of course they are), what matters is that it DOES benefit the pirate ~and this is what's wrong with it.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Gizmo

[Gromnir]

Sure it does, but to the point of companies shutting down because of it? I think not.

strawman alert. we didn't make claim that piracy were forcing publishers to shut down.

 

"also, it is worth noting that we didn't blame the pirates for failure of interplay or others"

 

*chuckle* is possible that sarex is gonna get  us in trouble for spam if you force us to repeat that yet again. we said that publishing were high risk and that piracy were costing publishers money. is rare for there to be a single obvious event or cause for failure o' a major publisher. regardless, piracy is a problem for game software developers and publishers. is a Significant problem 'ccording to most experts. is a problem that those in a high-risk venture can ill afford.  

 

is a problem that makes quantification difficult or near impossible. is a problem that is global but is having vast differing impacts and rationales in developed v. developing world. is a problem that is differing if we is speaking of books or movies or music... and is differing even if we is talking platform v. pc and direct download.  is a complex and multi-layered issue. experts such as Siwek likes to give numbers for billions o' dollars and jobs lost, but every expert has different numbers and every new bit o' info or change in tech alters the numbers anyway.  piracy is a problem for game software publishers.... and that really is the end o' the line as far as silly justifications for piracy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

-snip-

 

Well we can agree to disagree on that point, it's pointless to discuss ideologies.

 

 

SimCity was actually pirated quite a bit. I remember reading about how it fed into the whole always online single player fiasco.

 

Didn't Iron Lore Entertainment (the Titan Quest guys) close in part because of piracy? Something along the lines of bad reviews/word of mouth because they made pirated copies intentionally buggy?

 

The newest iteration of SimCity was not pirated for more then a year, because of it always online policy. It did way worse then it's predecessor, to the point where they even tried to move it to an offline platform, at which point, yes it was pirated.

 

Maybe devaluing isn't the right word, but "destroying it" is such a loaded, emotial word. It does remove a potential avenue of sale.

The market reacts to it in typical market economy fashion. It's now heading towards everything being software as service. There will not be downloadable products in the future, just a few influential corporations offering online accounts, giving access to play on their servers. Same is slowly happening in the movie industry with the likes of netflix. A sign of tomorrows digital distribution market.

 

In the case of gaming, it's the diversity and the prices that are going to suffer, because there will be fewer outlets offering competing products. Australia is a good example of what *could* happen, price fixing makes digitally distributed products between 50-100% more expensive (without any added cost of distribution) simply because of lack of competition (bless their little hearts at Gamersgate and GoG).

 

I think those two markets are separate. Those who want to pirate it will, those who don't won't. If we somehow magically removed piracy (SOPA?), how much would that change the standings. The biggest question there is how much of those pirated copies are lost sales.

 

There is a reason why free to play games are so popular nowadays, but that is a tangent that would take it's own thread to discuss.

 

 

 

strawman alert. we didn't make claim that piracy were forcing publishers to shut down.

 

"also, it is worth noting that we didn't blame the pirates for failure of interplay or others"

 

*chuckle* is possible that sarex is gonna get  us in trouble for spam if you force us to repeat that yet again. we said that publishing were high risk and that piracy were costing publishers money. is rare for there to be a single obvious event or cause for failure o' a major publisher. regardless, piracy is a problem for game software developers and publishers. is a Significant problem 'ccording to most experts. is a problem that those in a high-risk venture can ill afford.  

 

is a problem that makes quantification difficult or near impossible. is a problem that is global but is having vast differing impacts and rationales in developed v. developing world. is a problem that is differing if we is speaking of books or movies or music... and is differing even if we is talking platform v. pc and direct download.  is a complex and multi-layered issue. experts such as Siwek likes to give numbers for billions o' dollars and jobs lost, but every expert has different numbers and every new bit o' info or change in tech alters the numbers anyway.  piracy is a problem for game software publishers.... and that really is the end o' the line as far as silly justifications for piracy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You insinuated strongly that they were a big contributor, it was a direct reply to what you said, no strawman at all. Also when those experts are paid by the same companies that have a conflict of interest and use research done/payed for by the same companies, excuse me if I don't swallow what they have to say. That's in the same line of an oil company paying for research on global warming and then having their experts discuss it.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sarex

[Gizmo]

 

You seem to think that I care if they would not pay for it. I've never given that impression. Their disinclination to fairly purchase the product has no bearing on the issue... it is only that they are not entitled to have it ~without purchasing it.

 

Well we can agree to disagree on that point, it's pointless to discuss ideologies.

 

We can agree to disagree... but that's not an ideology... that is a brazen insult to the the game studio; practically a slap to the face.

(And probably feels like a kick to the groin.)

Edited June 6, 2014 by Gizmo

[Bryy]

If your games aren't selling it means they aren't good enough

Except it's common sense that this is not true for any medium.

[ShadySands]

SimCity was actually pirated quite a bit. I remember reading about how it fed into the whole always online single player fiasco.

 

Didn't Iron Lore Entertainment (the Titan Quest guys) close in part because of piracy? Something along the lines of bad reviews/word of mouth because they made pirated copies intentionally buggy?

 

The newest iteration of SimCity was not pirated for more then a year, because of it always online policy. It did way worse then it's predecessor, to the point where they even tried to move it to an offline platform, at which point, yes it was pirated.

That is incorrect

[Sarex]

You mentioned this:

________

There are example of games that couldn't be pirated and still tanked in their sales. I remember when starforce was introduced, Prince of Persia: Two Thrones wasn't pirated for a whole year and it was still a failure to Ubisoft as the sales were underwhelming for them. Simcity was never pirated and they still failed miserably.

________

And I ask why this seems important to you in this context? Why should any of us care if the games 'still tanked'?

 

Because it shows that piracy isn't a reason that a game fails, as seems to be a common misconception in this thread.

 

That is incorrect

 

Oh wanna make a bet?

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sarex

[Gizmo]

I do recall that brilliant [and devious] studio that released a game simulation about making games, and uploaded a version of their game to a torrent ~but that one added that the player's work would get pirated, and they got so many calls by irate gamers [edit:apparently not; just forum postings] that had managed to release their game, but couldn't seem to win because they kept getting pirated.

 

Aha! http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/

Edited June 6, 2014 by Gizmo

[Sarex]

I do recall that brilliant [and devious] studio that released a game simulation about making games, and uploaded a version of their game to a torrent ~but that one added that the player's work would get pirated, and they got so many calls by irate gamers that had managed to release their game, but couldn't seem to win because they kept getting pirated.

 

Aha! http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/

 

Your point being?

[Gromnir]

 

-snip-

 

Well we can agree to disagree on that point, it's pointless to discuss ideologies.

 

 

SimCity was actually pirated quite a bit. I remember reading about how it fed into the whole always online single player fiasco.

 

Didn't Iron Lore Entertainment (the Titan Quest guys) close in part because of piracy? Something along the lines of bad reviews/word of mouth because they made pirated copies intentionally buggy?

 

The newest iteration of SimCity was not pirated for more then a year, because of it always online policy. It did way worse then it's predecessor, to the point where they even tried to move it to an offline platform, at which point, yes it was pirated.

 

Maybe devaluing isn't the right word, but "destroying it" is such a loaded, emotial word. It does remove a potential avenue of sale.

The market reacts to it in typical market economy fashion. It's now heading towards everything being software as service. There will not be downloadable products in the future, just a few influential corporations offering online accounts, giving access to play on their servers. Same is slowly happening in the movie industry with the likes of netflix. A sign of tomorrows digital distribution market.

 

In the case of gaming, it's the diversity and the prices that are going to suffer, because there will be fewer outlets offering competing products. Australia is a good example of what *could* happen, price fixing makes digitally distributed products between 50-100% more expensive (without any added cost of distribution) simply because of lack of competition (bless their little hearts at Gamersgate and GoG).

 

I think those two markets are separate. Those who want to pirate it will, those who don't won't. If we somehow magically removed piracy (SOPA?), how much would that change the standings. The biggest question there is how much of those pirated copies are lost sales.

 

There is a reason why free to play games are so popular nowadays, but that is a tangent that would take it's own thread to discuss.

 

 

 

strawman alert. we didn't make claim that piracy were forcing publishers to shut down.

 

"also, it is worth noting that we didn't blame the pirates for failure of interplay or others"

 

*chuckle* is possible that sarex is gonna get  us in trouble for spam if you force us to repeat that yet again. we said that publishing were high risk and that piracy were costing publishers money. is rare for there to be a single obvious event or cause for failure o' a major publisher. regardless, piracy is a problem for game software developers and publishers. is a Significant problem 'ccording to most experts. is a problem that those in a high-risk venture can ill afford.  

 

is a problem that makes quantification difficult or near impossible. is a problem that is global but is having vast differing impacts and rationales in developed v. developing world. is a problem that is differing if we is speaking of books or movies or music... and is differing even if we is talking platform v. pc and direct download.  is a complex and multi-layered issue. experts such as Siwek likes to give numbers for billions o' dollars and jobs lost, but every expert has different numbers and every new bit o' info or change in tech alters the numbers anyway.  piracy is a problem for game software publishers.... and that really is the end o' the line as far as silly justifications for piracy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You insinuated strongly that they were a big contributor, it was a direct reply to what you said, no strawman at all. Also when those experts are paid by the same companies that have a conflict of interest and use research done/payed for by the same companies, excuse me if I don't swallow what they have to say. That's in the same line of an oil company paying for research on global warming and then having their experts discuss it.

 

is all kinda contributing factors. no doubt piracy is a contributing factor as we has now pointed out Many times... so yeah, still a strawman.

 

we got no idea how big a factor is piracy to publisher fails, 'cause as noted above, is largely impossible to come up with numbers.  and if you won't believe quarterly reports, or experts doing independent studies, or that those heartless corporations is spending millions trying to stop piracy, then our observations 'bout you just being plain obtuse 'bout this issue is seeming being reinforced.

 

in any event, it doesn't really matter though how big or small is the problem o' piracy is, 'cause as 'tween the publishers, developers and/or artists versus the poor pirates...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

is all kinda contributing factors. no doubt piracy is a contributing factor as we has now pointed out Many times... so yeah, still a strawman.

 

we got no idea how big a factor is piracy to publisher fails, 'cause as noted above, is largely impossible to come up with numbers.  and if you won't believe quarterly reports, or experts doing independent studies, or that those heartless corporations is spending millions trying to stop piracy, then our observations 'bout you just being plain obtuse 'bout this issue is seeming being reinforced.

 

in any event, it doesn't really matter though how big or small is the problem o' piracy is, 'cause as 'tween the publishers, developers and/or artists versus the poor pirates...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Then why would you even make that connection, a more accurate statement would then be that I was replying to your strawman...

[Gizmo]

 

I do recall that brilliant [and devious] studio that released a game simulation about making games, and uploaded a version of their game to a torrent ~but that one added that the player's work would get pirated, and they got so many calls by irate gamers that had managed to release their game, but couldn't seem to win because they kept getting pirated.

 

Aha! http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/

 

Your point being?

 

I can try to explain it, but I can't understand it for you. The man actually explains it pretty well I thought; did you read his article? Edited June 6, 2014 by Gizmo

[Sarex]

I can try to explain it, but I can't understand it for you. The man actually explains it pretty well I thought; did you read his article?

 

All it makes me think is that you either haven't read anything I said thus far, or you haven't understood a single thing...

[Gromnir]

 

is all kinda contributing factors. no doubt piracy is a contributing factor as we has now pointed out Many times... so yeah, still a strawman.

 

we got no idea how big a factor is piracy to publisher fails, 'cause as noted above, is largely impossible to come up with numbers.  and if you won't believe quarterly reports, or experts doing independent studies, or that those heartless corporations is spending millions trying to stop piracy, then our observations 'bout you just being plain obtuse 'bout this issue is seeming being reinforced.

 

in any event, it doesn't really matter though how big or small is the problem o' piracy is, 'cause as 'tween the publishers, developers and/or artists versus the poor pirates...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Then why would you even make that connection, a more accurate statement would then be that I was replying to your strawman...

 

...

 

what on earth are you talking about?  publishing is HIGH risk. piracy HARMS publishers. there is your freaking connection. 

 

*shakes head sadly*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

what on earth are you talking about?  publishing is HIGH risk. piracy HARMS publishers. there is your freaking connection. 

 

*shakes head sadly*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

...

 

But you just said that we can't quantify how much it harms the publisher, so can you say it would make any difference?

[Gizmo]

 

I can try to explain it, but I can't understand it for you. The man actually explains it pretty well I thought; did you read his article?

 

All it makes me think is that you either haven't read anything I said thus far, or you haven't understood a single thing...

 

The only thing that I missed (first time around), was you saying,"No one here is justifying pirating".