The morality of Animancy

[Nonek]

For myself one of the most fascinating aspects of Poe that has been announced is Animancy, it makes sense that in a setting where the Soul is real and can interact with the mundane, that there have arisen individuals who wish to study it in more detail. Applying the scientific principle to what would seem a supernatural phenomena to us, but to the denizens of Poe is indisputably natural.

 

However due to the use of Animancy in update #73 as a flawed means of immortality resulting in actual Undeath, one has to question the morality of the science and its practitioners. Is it only the most amoral of Animancers who would promise immortality to the desperate and foolish, or is there a number of them who are genuinely trying to research the disparity between the mortality of the flesh and the immortality of the Soul? And whatever their motives is it right to practice their art when its current application is, to say the least imperfect?

 

 

Update by Eric Fenstermaker, Lead Narrative Designer

 

 

 

Corporeal undead in this world all suffer from the same malady, and are merely in different stages of decomposition. How do you get this condition? It's usually something that you would get by commissioning an unscrupulous animancer to help you live forever, or by volunteering for a "harmless clinical trial." These ladies and gentlemen have been studying a certain banned piece of literature known as the Theorems of Padgram and are trying to develop a true path to immortality. But there are supposedly other ways - certain alchemical tinctures, ancient architecturally-embedded machinery, self-pleasure (according to some disapproving Dyrwoodan moms), etc.

 

• You start as a fampyr. (And these names are not different-for-the-sake-of-different - they're just following location-appropriate linguistic rules.) By appearances, you're basically a normal person who is going through a bit of a cannibal phase.
• Allow yourself to decompose for a while, and you start to lose control of your urges, and your memory begins to slip away. Your self-consciousness is flimsy. You are now what's called a dargul.
• Much more decomposition, and you become bestial. Your hair is gone (if it wasn't already), the flesh sags on your bones, and you live only to feed your hunger. You are a gul, but you don't give it much thought at this point. You just think you are hungry.
• Then your mind gets really pretty thoroughly rotted, like what happens if you play a lot of FPSes, and you're only running at the basest level of instinct. You have no memory. You, my friend, are a revenant, and you are not very fun at parties.
• After the last bit of flesh falls away, and the last mildly complicated neural synaptic path fires for the final time, you're running on pure reflex. You're not even hungry anymore (no stomach!). Your body is a murderous automaton. You are a skeleton, and your next step is dust.

 

At the moment in the Dyrwood the role of the Animancer is legal, and one suspects that their research is legal until they are brought to book, for whatever crimes have resulted from their actions. This would seem to suggest that there have been no great tragedies arising from their research as yet, and that the immortality they have offered to the unsuspecting is a secretive and rumoured matter not common knowledge, indeed pursuing such immortality (in effect spurning the gods and the cycle of death and rebirth) may be an amoral pursuit that none would willingly admit to.

 

Of course as mentioned in the first paragraph of the Update segment above Animancy is not the only method of making the Undead, and maybe any occurences of Undeath can be blamed on these other influences, after all the Dyrwood rests on the ruins of the Old Engwithans. Their potency in Animancy seems to have been undoubted, but they are now long gone and have a foreign race guarding the remains of their culture, perhaps this is a warning to the younger cultures stumbling into the region and the secrets it holds? 

 

Is the manipulation and research of the Soul a moral pursuit, after all the people of Poe manipulate their own souls all the time, and surely Animancers are merely taking one more step along that road towards the mysteries of the infinite. Or is the method used to conduct that research the important matter, and Animancy is a tool only as moral as its purveyor? If you get the chance in Poe to support the research and experimentation of an Animancer, one who seeks to unlock the secrets of existence itself, will you?

Edited May 24, 2014 by Nonek

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Is the manipulation and research of the Soul a moral pursuit, after all the people of Poe manipulate their own souls all the time, and surely Animancers are merely taking one more step along that road towards the mysteries of the infinite. Or is the method used to conduct that research the important matter, and Animancy is a tool only as moral as its purveyor? If you get the chance in Poe to support the research and experimentation of an Animancer, one who seeks to unlock the secrets of existence itself, will you?

 

...Mmm... depends on the goals of the animancer (immortality holds little interest for me), and how clean his experiments are.

[Gromnir]

either obsidian hopes folks won't ask too many questions, or they gots lots of explaining to do. "merely taking one more step," seems woefully insufficient to describe the manipulation of the souls of people other than the animancer himself.  being able to bind the soul of another person to their slowly/quickly rotting corpse is one example we has been given... oh, and the undead thus created will eventual go all psychotic and cannibalistic. and again, lest folks wanna skip over this point, we is talking 'bout the animancer manipulating souls that is not his own, and in poe, souls is real. have some magician in real world 2014 doing experiments on the soul is gonna be very different than such experimentation in poe. at minimum we would expect extreme suspicion of animancers, and that is an optimistic perspective. to have animancers practice their art open and notoriously, you either gots an extreme blasé populace, or perhaps a Nietzschian nightmare wherein virtual everybody is some kinda moral nihilist.

 

aside: just now occurred to us that there were philip pullman books that actual dealt with this topic. in golden compass/northern lights, people's daemons is their souls and those daemons existed separate of a person's own body. obviously poe peoples need not view animancy in same way as pullman had folks view experimentation on souls in his books, but one wonders if the obsidians has read pullman. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

either obsidian hopes folks won't ask too many questions, or they gots lots of explaining to do. "merely taking one more step," seems woefully insufficient to describe the manipulation of the souls of people other than the animancer himself.  being able to bind the soul of another person to their slowly/quickly rotting corpse is one example we has been given... oh, and the undead thus created will eventual go all psychotic and cannibalistic. and again, lest folks wanna skip over this point, we is talking 'bout the animancer manipulating souls that is not his own, and in poe, souls is real. 

 

Excellent points, Gromnir. I kinda hope that the designers will resist the urge to jump on the nowadays oh-so-popular grimdark bandwagon, and make it possible to do actual research without having to do the metaphysical equivalent of roasting newborn babies alive.

 

I, for example, would totally have my character throw significant funds at people who are working on methods to restore fragmented souls, or something like that. Hopefully researching seemingly-beneficient things will also be possible.

[Gromnir]

 

either obsidian hopes folks won't ask too many questions, or they gots lots of explaining to do. "merely taking one more step," seems woefully insufficient to describe the manipulation of the souls of people other than the animancer himself.  being able to bind the soul of another person to their slowly/quickly rotting corpse is one example we has been given... oh, and the undead thus created will eventual go all psychotic and cannibalistic. and again, lest folks wanna skip over this point, we is talking 'bout the animancer manipulating souls that is not his own, and in poe, souls is real. 

 

Excellent points, Gromnir. I kinda hope that the designers will resist the urge to jump on the nowadays oh-so-popular grimdark bandwagon, and make it possible to do actual research without having to do the metaphysical equivalent of roasting newborn babies alive.

 

I, for example, would totally have my character throw significant funds at people who are working on methods to restore fragmented souls, or something like that. Hopefully researching seemingly-beneficient things will also be possible.

 

we got no aversion to introducing the concept o' animacy to poe. in point o' fact, we believe much interesting fodder could come from animancy. in judeo-christian traditions, adam and eve got kicked out of eden for eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. parallels is gonna be obvious if you got knowledge that involves manipulation of souls and leads to creation of undead. am doubting obsidian developers wanna get too overt into religious territory, but is hard to imagine animancers with otherwise good intentions not suffering persecution. 

 

a bitter animancer wants revenge for what were done to his family or friends.

 

a complete amoral animancer doing god-forsaken experiments.

 

a cunning/greedy/mad noble forcing an animancer to experiment on kidnapped gypsies... or whatever is poe equivalent.

 

etc.

 

most o' the above is cliche, but  you get the idea. 

 

regardless, we can't genuine see animancy being viewed w/o widespread fear. most new sciences is embraced only after a period o' suspicion and none we can think of has got such obvious and real dangers to body AND soul of peoples.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

I agree that the lawfulness of Animancy in the Dyrwood might merit some explanation, the obvious comparison would be the Glenfathan use of astronomy to defeat the fleet blockading Defiance Bay, this would have obviously raised the profile of heavenly study to the general population of the area. Is it possible that Animancy has played such a critical role in some part of the Dyrwoods founding, or is its legality merely an oversight, one that its practitioners have taken advantage of to advance their craft?

 

We know that it's practice is forbidden in other areas, however why is this? Is the study of the Soul judged to be amoral in and of itself, an insult to the gods and stepping too far into their realm? Certainly one can inagine any faith reacting in such a way, and perhaps being correct. Or have there been tragedies and rumours hounding the profession, born of the the example we have in Update #73, and perhaps individuals who have most certainly gone too far in their pursuits? One supposes the answer is that we don't know yet.

 

One logical step that I think is sound to take, the Engwithan's were masters of Soul manipulation, and the Dyrwood sits upon the ruins of their civilisation. This seems to go beyond coincidence, was Animancy somewhat state sponsored when the Dyrwood was founded, or merely tolerated for the answers it could bring to the ruins and devices of the lost race?

[Sabotin]

It really depends how the developers go about it.

 

How I envision it would have some tangents with medieval (or something) psychiatry; mental diseases are still seen as a whole different thing than physical ones, with often scary symptoms. So too could soul manipulation and effects be seen as an abomination while in reality being much more down to earth things.

 

The practitioners of animancy could also be like old time medical researchers with the body smuggling and secret autopsies and such, but instead they could come to graveyards to collect traces of souls or even set  up equipment around dying people. It wouldn't be a stretch then for the whole thing to be associated with the macabre, as opposed to other branches of "purer" science.

[Nonek]

The comparison to early Alchemy, the work of Dee and others, obviously springs to mind as well. Just as the Alchemist sought to turn lead into gold, not for profit but to make a base metal into one that was judged to be pure, and thus closer to the Lord. Are Animancer's doing the same with the soul? Is this so different to what the Wizard is doing with his spells, the formulae of Soul power that he scribes into his Grimoire? Both have an acknowledged and real effect on the world and its people, would a denizen of the Dyrwood judge this differently than we (who do not have and thus cannot manipulate our Souls) do?

 

An interesting area to explore, what the manipulation of ones own Souls means for the setting.

 

One obvious thought springs to mind, with the colonisation of Engwithan ruins, were Animancer's needed to turn off or master devices that were left by that culture? Were they an integral part of making the land a safe and pleasant environment for the settlers? Perhaps the experiments outlined in Update #73 are relatively unknown while their beneficent acts are far more acknowleged. Did they serve in the Broken Stone War against the Glenfathan's?

[Gromnir]

money would be an obvious means o' overcoming natural aversion to one who traffics in animacy. we could see any number o' complete fantastic, but reasonable in context, applications o' animacy. real world runs on electricity. poe would appear to run on magic/soul energy. a dynamo converts mechanical energy into electrical. an animancer who learns to convert mechanical energy into soul energy would, based on historical analogues, die forgotten and/or impoverished. nevertheless, somebody would come along after that guy and figure out a way to make the soul dyanmo (or whatever) useful. an animancer would manage to demystify animacy and come up with a way to make bags o' money for everybody... would change world view. 

 

is just a complete random kinda hypothetical though.

 

and even then, the whole soul thing makes us wonder if money is enough. if our hypothetical soul dynamo actual harmed or destroyed souls in the process, rather than replacing with mechanical energy, how much money would it take to makes people ignore the downside? is there enough money that would make cultures ignore the downside? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JFSOCC]

I don't think it's the immoral scientists who follow this path. Science isn't good or evil, only what we do with science is. Some of the most (at the time considered) immoral research has had some of the most impact on our world. Take medical science, where people who died of malaria while digging the panama canal had their corpses sold to help finance the project, and convicted murderers whose bodies were not buried but sold to science.

 

Without those we'd never have evolved our medical science to the point where we could identify most organs.

 

Or Nuclear science, which led both to the atom bomb, but also relatively clean energy, and was one of the precursors for computing.

 

While these animancers might do unscrupulous things now, there is no telling where the science of animancing might eventually turn, and what good it will do.

 

Perhaps the studies will help prevent souls from being fractured as they proceed through the circle of rebirth, perhaps true immortality is around the corner, maybe someone's memories can be saved after death. Perhaps the souls of those who were murdered might be called upon to bear witness against their assassins.

Edited May 25, 2014 by JFSOCC

[teknoman2]

hey, if every research stopped because something went wrong, we would still be in the dark age

besides in every world and every era there will always be mad scientists

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I don't think it's the immoral scientists who follow this path. Science isn't good or evil, only what we do with science is. Some of the most (at the time considered) immoral research has had some of the most impact on our world. Take medical science, where people who died of malaria while digging the panama canal had their corpses sold to help finance the project, and convicted murderers whose bodies were not buried but sold to science.

 

Well, you make some valid points, but I think "having your body sold after you die" is not really in the same category as "being forced to spend an eternity in constant hunger, deprived of your higher cognitive functions"

 

(Unless someone kills undead-you. Or not. Did they comment on what happens to the souls of slain undead?)

[Nonek]

 

I don't think it's the immoral scientists who follow this path. Science isn't good or evil, only what we do with science is. Some of the most (at the time considered) immoral research has had some of the most impact on our world. Take medical science, where people who died of malaria while digging the panama canal had their corpses sold to help finance the project, and convicted murderers whose bodies were not buried but sold to science.

 

Well, you make some valid points, but I think "having your body sold after you die" is not really in the same category as "being forced to spend an eternity in constant hunger, deprived of your higher cognitive functions"

 

(Unless someone kills undead-you. Or not. Did they comment on what happens to the souls of slain undead?)

 

 

If the Soul is irretrievably divorced from the cycle of death and rebirth through being bonded to the mortal host, then I would assume that is one of the most heinous of acts one can commit in the world of Poe. However actually proving such a thing or any of the actions of an Animancer seems to be a doubtful affair, especially in a world of the fantastical where there are other causes for such a condition, perhaps it takes an Animancer to catch one and prove their guilt?

 

One has to wonder whether there is a field of theoretical Animancy, where the experiments undertaken are small and inoffensive, little skeletal rats revivified by the curious scientist who sets them to dance and shrinks away from testing his art on humans?

 

Edit: I think it was during the run up to the Kickstarter that we saw the phrase asking why the gods are silent, and declaring that we should seek answers in this event, was Animancy born of the gods of Poe's silence on matters of the Souls? Are there parallels there to Philosophy?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Nonek

[teknoman2]

 

I don't think it's the immoral scientists who follow this path. Science isn't good or evil, only what we do with science is. Some of the most (at the time considered) immoral research has had some of the most impact on our world. Take medical science, where people who died of malaria while digging the panama canal had their corpses sold to help finance the project, and convicted murderers whose bodies were not buried but sold to science.

 

Well, you make some valid points, but I think "having your body sold after you die" is not really in the same category as "being forced to spend an eternity in constant hunger, deprived of your higher cognitive functions"

 

(Unless someone kills undead-you. Or not. Did they comment on what happens to the souls of slain undead?)

 

the soul is glued to the body so even if you cut it in pieces, each piece will still be "alive". however each piece cant do anything on it's own and they cant reattach once cut so the undead counts as dead for combat purposes.

[Nonek]

Ah here it is: "One good life. An extraordinary life. What levy must be paid for such a thing?" "If the gods won't answer, it is for us to decide."

[Gromnir]

 

However actually proving such a thing or any of the actions of an Animancer seems to be a doubtful affair, especially in a world of the fantastical where there are other causes for such a condition, perhaps it takes an Animancer to catch one and prove their guilt?

 

 

even assuming that poe world has same/similar common law traditions as would presuppose innocence, am having a hard time believing that absence of definitive proof would help the animancer. just imagine if some percentage of real world witches actually had been able to utilize black magic to do, as a complete random example, create undead monsters. do you believe that the genuine capacity to create undead monstrosities would be increasing or decreasing fear o' witches? how many thousands o' real world peoples were persecuted and killed 'cause o' complete fantastic and imagined crime o' witchcraft? btw, Gromnir does accept that some % of people accused o' witchcraft may have believed that they were witches or could do witchcraft... what a horrible reality that a person could be guilty o' practicing witchcraft in spite of fact that black magic were complete fantasy. regardless, we can't picture this scenario playing out like tobacco companies avoiding responsibility for link 'tween cancer and cigarette smoking. enlightened notions regarding presumption o' innocence and burdens of proof might not mesh so well when you got genuine "witches" actual binding souls to corpses and creating undead monsters. 

 

does animancers have an extreme powerful lobby? we mentioned money above. animancers bringing in same kinda cash to local populace/governments as phillip morris?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

If the Soul is irretrievably divorced from the cycle of death and rebirth through being bonded to the mortal host, then I would assume that is one of the most heinous of acts one can commit in the world of Poe. However actually proving such a thing or any of the actions of an Animancer seems to be a doubtful affair, especially in a world of the fantastical where there are other causes for such a condition

 

 

That is a valid point re: ethics of Animancy. Also, the idea of skeleton rats running around in a lab is hilarious 

 

am having a hard time believing that absence of definitive proof would help the animancer. 

 

 

That is also a valid point re: life expectancy of known animancers

[Sensuki]

It's possible that this is one of (if not the main) themes of the game.

[Gromnir]

It's possible that this is one of (if not the main) themes of the game.

am not doubting that you are correct, which is why we thinks obsidian needs be careful how they deal with animancy. there isn't any genuine real world parallels to animancy. is also not a well-trodden fantasy trope. being uncharted territory allows great freedom, but one need also be remembering the cartographers warning that past the edge of the map, "here be dragons." is all on obsidian to be fitting animancy into their world so it is plausible and reasonable. as long as animancy is having a good degree of internal rationality, people will accept minor inconsistencies and quibbles. 'course, if animancy stretches credulity o' the typical gamer past the point most can bear...

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

 

am having a hard time believing that absence of definitive proof would help the animancer. 

 

 

That is also a valid point re: life expectancy of known animancers

 

 

One supposes that this is dependant on what the previous attitudes were towards Animancers and what rumours and facts have emerged about their profession, the example we have in Update #73, is this a new technique only now emerging in the Dyrwood which seems to be the pioneer of modern day Animancy? Have there been previous abuses by foreign or domestic practitioners? What is the established attitude towards the profession in the Dyrwood? What was the previous extent of research before the pioneers of the Dyrwood moved the craft forward? Why is Animancy outlawed in other states? Until we have answers to a few of these questions i'm personally unsure of how the art would be recieved in the Dyrwood, beyond noting that it is legal at the moment, and the conclusions that fact raises.

 

It would be very interesting to see these themes explored in the game, perhaps in literature. The excellent books on the subject of Magic and Technology in Tarant's great library in Arcanum spring to mind, especially the treatise on soot. Most illuminating.

[JFSOCC]

Until we have answers to a few of these questions i'm personally unsure of how the art would be recieved in the Dyrwood, beyond noting that it is legal at the moment, and the conclusions that fact raises.

I'm not sure if it's legal as much as "no law exists against it yet". I feels like its unregulated more than set in stone legal.

[Nonek]

 

Until we have answers to a few of these questions i'm personally unsure of how the art would be recieved in the Dyrwood, beyond noting that it is legal at the moment, and the conclusions that fact raises.

I'm not sure if it's legal as much as "no law exists against it yet". I feels like its unregulated more than set in stone legal.

 

 

A fair point but until some form of legal provision is made for Animancy, then barring certain cultural precedents and acts that interfere with another law, it must be judged as lawful. Though in reality a rulers decision  will probably be the deciding factor, which once again reinforces the point of Animancy not being regulated in the Dyrwood and the implicit suggestion that carries.

 

In other words why has the art been overlooked when it is prohibited elsewhere? There is a dissonance there, what is the reason for that, and has the Dyrwood attracted Animancers from other nations due to oversight or intent?

[JFSOCC]

or maybe it's because it is a colonial backwater where animancy has only recently appeared.

[Nonek]

A possibility but why then would it be a leading light in the study of Animancy as I believe Mr Sawyer stated somewhere? And why are they not simply perpetuating the prohibition found in Aedyr?

[Lephys]

One other curious thing this has me thinking of:

 

Are the gods actually gods? Or simply labeled that by the lesser-being mortals? Maybe the gods have souls, too, but different/greater/what-have-you ones? Maybe they are part of the same cycle, but their souls are slower? Maybe they're just entities who have mastered the manipulation of their own souls? Who knows.

 

If so much research and interest is placed in the utilization of the souls of "humans" (mortals) in various applications, imagine what one could do with the soul of a "god."