Attack speed?

[Cubiq]

Wizard berserker mode, i like that, i just hope there are ways to cancel such dangerous buffs in case you get hit and find out you won't have enough stamina left for the duration of the buff.

Otherwise you'll just be watching your impending doom.

[teknoman2]

Wizard berserker mode, i like that, i just hope there are ways to cancel such dangerous buffs in case you get hit and find out you won't have enough stamina left for the duration of the buff.

Otherwise you'll just be watching your impending doom.

it will probably stop draining when you go down to 1 point

[Hormalakh]

TTV and DAlac are what i'm going to call them becuase too long n me no like typing long time.

 

tatveil might work too.

 

like both spells.

[Lephys]

Purely functionally, it seems like a melee weapon's recovery time really shouldn't come to a complete halt just because the character is moving. I'm thinking of a character swinging a sword, then running across the battlefield (maybe it takes 3 or 4 seconds to do, when his recovery time only would've been 1 second, normally), then STILL having to wait 1 second after arriving at the new target before attacking.

 

*Shrug*. Maybe it should go at half-speed while they're moving? Or, maybe movement should always incur its own recovery time "penalty," no matter how far you've moved?

 

If a sword-wielding Fighter attacks something, then moves to another target, his attack recovery will have finished. But, as long as he's still moving, he can't attack again, and once he stops, there's still a .25-second recovery time before he can attack again. Something like that.

 

It's not really a big deal either way, but it just seems strange in practice, ya know? "Hang on, guys. I'm running around, so I've yet to recover from that sword swing I made 30 seconds ago." It makes sense for casting or cross-bow reloading, etc. (great example, btw, teknoman2!).

 

Plus, if with different possibilities for the effects of movement on recovery time, you allow for things like fire-while-moving feats (with a bow/crossbow), or spell preparation while moving (cast time lengthens, but you can actually begin casting a spell while not standing still). Etc. That sort of thing.

 

*shrug*. Just isolated suggestions, I realize. I have no basis for whether or not these things would be more or less feasible than what is in place right now, as I am not on the dev team.

 

It sounds like a pretty functionally sound system, as-is, and I understand why it might not be more complex than that.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's consistent across all attack types to make them easier to balance and to prevent kiting and similar move/attack microing that was rampant in IE games.

[Cubiq]

What about if the monster is just running away, from a fear spell or morale failure. Will the Engage mechanic be enough to allow melee to hit the target? 

As far as i know that only works when the opponent isn't moving, so will melee be able to damage a fleeing opponent at all?

Edited May 6, 2014 by Cubiq

[Lephys]

It's consistent across all attack types to make them easier to balance and to prevent kiting and similar move/attack microing that was rampant in IE games.

Understandable.

 

Out of curiosity (from what Cubiq said), how does Attack Speed factor into broken-engagement attacks? Are they completely unrestricted -- as in a Fighter in Defender Mode will make 3 attacks within a 30-frame period if 3 opponents cross out of his engagement radius (even though only one animation has played)? Or will there be some kind of delay that's significantly shorter than the overall standard attack delay for that given Fighter?

[J.E. Sawyer]

What about if the monster is just running away, from a fear spell or morale failure. Will the Engage mechanic be enough to allow melee to hit the target? 

As far as i know that only works when the opponent isn't moving, so will melee be able to damage a fleeing opponent at all?

 

If you can catch up to the character, it should.  As soon as the pursuer stops moving, they will engage the enemy (meaning the enemy stops).  The enemy can move away, but that immediately provokes a Disengagement Attack.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Understandable.

Out of curiosity (from what Cubiq said), how does Attack Speed factor into broken-engagement attacks? Are they completely unrestricted -- as in a Fighter in Defender Mode will make 3 attacks within a 30-frame period if 3 opponents cross out of his engagement radius (even though only one animation has played)? Or will there be some kind of delay that's significantly shorter than the overall standard attack delay for that given Fighter?

 

Disengagement attacks are "free" and have no recovery.  If three dudes are on a Defender fighter and they all decide to bail at the same time, they could all get horribly, instantly stomped by the fighter.

[Lephys]

^ Splendid, ^_^

 

I know that's not "realistic," but it makes me think of PnP play, and I love it.

[Mor]

If your Recovery Time has elapsed, selecting an action to perform will result in the character performing that action as soon as they are in range.  Of course, most melee attacks + Recovery Times are 2 seconds before armor Speed Factor is added in.  Most spells take 3 seconds to cast and 3 seconds to recover, so 6 seconds total.  A caster who begins casting within range of an auto-attacking melee opponent is likely to be attacked once or twice before their spell completes.

 

Wands, rods, and sceptres have a high attack rate but a relatively low Interrupt.  Wizards have a spell specifically for interrupting casters called Thrust of the Tattered Veils.  It does virtually no damage but has a high Interrupt and casts very quickly.

Just to make sure does the interrupt window is the same as the animation or "Action time" and thus most buffs that increase attack speed by reducing recovering time, doesn't effect your chance of being interrupted ?

[Sensuki]

I assume that using the cancel function only cancels the attack (or action), but not the recovery time?

[Valorian]

It's good that running around in combat and changing targets has a cost associated to it (not all melee combatants are going to be engaged in melee) and as Josh pointed out, it discourages kiting. It's possible to "play" with the AI and kite it even with two melee attackers, interchanging running away and attacking. Recovery time being halted while running will make this type of abuse much harder to execute.

Lephys invoked realism, but it makes sense that while a character is running around the battlefield he spends his energy on running and then when he engages a foe it takes a second or two for him to catch his breath.

[Hormalakh]

it would be nice if AI rogues who are fleeing utilize their disengagement abilities to get away scot free from fighters. those sort of things always make these games better.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I assume that using the cancel function only cancels the attack (or action), but not the recovery time?

 

If an action is canceled before its hit frame, there's no recovery time, but you do have to start a new action from the beginning.

[teknoman2]

It's good that running around in combat and changing targets has a cost associated to it (not all melee combatants are going to be engaged in melee) and as Josh pointed out, it discourages kiting. It's possible to "play" with the AI and kite it even with two melee attackers, interchanging running away and attacking. Recovery time being halted while running will make this type of abuse much harder to execute.

Lephys invoked realism, but it makes sense that while a character is running around the battlefield he spends his energy on running and then when he engages a foe it takes a second or two for him to catch his breath.

a kite tactic i used in BG was to have the party spread out, all with bows and slings and as the enemy was chasing one guy around, the others were hitting him. if he changed target, the bait would start attacking and the new target would go around baitin the enemy

[agris]

Will the game speed increase if we play at 45, 60, 90+ fps (like the IE games), or will the delay between animation frames increase? Stretching 30 fps animations (1 frame per 33.3 ms) to ~67 ms per frame for 60 fps rendering.

Edited May 6, 2014 by agris

[Lephys]

Lephys invoked realism, but it makes sense that while a character is running around the battlefield he spends his energy on running and then when he engages a foe it takes a second or two for him to catch his breath.

It's possible, sure. But the sheer act of movement wouldn't really stop you from acting. They're not really separate things. Look at sports (also requires a lot of movement AND a lot of precise physical maneuvers to accurately strike/hit/control things). Soccer players don't run across the field to the ball, then catch their breath, THEN pass/shoot the ball. They work it into their arrival at the ball.

 

Sure, if you had to just spring like your life depended on it, and your focus was 100% on moving and 0% on interacting with anything at any point, you'd have to "catch your breath" before being prepared to utilize any amount of combat form to make an attack or defend -- to engage.

 

Anywho, I fully understand how that's not really the most important thing in this regard, and I agree that it's good to see movement have its own costs for mechanical reasons. A lot of games simply teeter in the opposite direction, and allow you to make attacks and perform actions at the most awkward of times (like the instant you get back up, or come out of a daze, etc.). So, I much prefer the mechanically-sound abstraction of some recovery times when there might technically might not have been (realistically) than the one in which ludicrous amounts of impossible kiting take place (such movements + instantly-spin-around-and-strike attacks would be the most inaccurate things on the planet, realistically).

[Sensuki]

I asked this on SA forums and Josh said that the animations are frame rate independent. The game speed will not increase the more FPS you have (there is no FPS cap either - which is standard for Unity). You can use the slowdown function to slow it down though.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

 

It's possible, sure. But the sheer act of movement wouldn't really stop you from acting. They're not really separate things. Look at sports (also requires a lot of movement AND a lot of precise physical maneuvers to accurately strike/hit/control things). Soccer players don't run across the field to the ball, then catch their breath, THEN pass/shoot the ball. They work it into their arrival at the ball.

 

Sure, if you had to just spring like your life depended on it, and your focus was 100% on moving and 0% on interacting with anything at any point, you'd have to "catch your breath" before being prepared to utilize any amount of combat form to make an attack or defend -- to engage.

 

Anywho, I fully understand how that's not really the most important thing in this regard, and I agree that it's good to see movement have its own costs for mechanical reasons. A lot of games simply teeter in the opposite direction, and allow you to make attacks and perform actions at the most awkward of times (like the instant you get back up, or come out of a daze, etc.). So, I much prefer the mechanically-sound abstraction of some recovery times when there might technically might not have been (realistically) than the one in which ludicrous amounts of impossible kiting take place (such movements + instantly-spin-around-and-strike attacks would be the most inaccurate things on the planet, realistically).

 

 

A few seconds to catch his breath/assess the situation etc. We're not talking about machines, so I don't find it unrealistic. As you acknowledged, it was implemented for gameplay reasons.

[Lephys]

A few seconds to catch his breath/assess the situation etc. We're not talking about machines, so I don't find it unrealistic.

I find it unrealistic to happen every single time you move, whether you've taken a step or 7,000 steps..

 

I never said a human having to catch their breath is unrealistic. A human being incapable of moving to another target on the battlefield and transitioning with any grace directly into attack/defense (engagement) is unrealistic, is all.

 

It's beside the point, since the reasoning for the decision isn't "because we're trying to simulate reality perfectly." But, I just thought I'd clarify, as you didn't seem to follow the specifics of my observation.

[Valorian]

 

A few seconds to catch his breath/assess the situation etc. We're not talking about machines, so I don't find it unrealistic.

I find it unrealistic to happen every single time you move, whether you've taken a step or 7,000 steps..

 

I never said a human having to catch their breath is unrealistic. A human being incapable of moving to another target on the battlefield and transitioning with any grace directly into attack/defense (engagement) is unrealistic, is all.

 

It's beside the point, since the reasoning for the decision isn't "because we're trying to simulate reality perfectly." But, I just thought I'd clarify, as you didn't seem to follow the specifics of my observation.

 

 But Lephys, it won't happen every single time. Humans & co. will be capable of moving to another target on the battlefield and transition with grace directly into attack/defense, if their recovery time has elapsed.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yeah, if you're not in Recovery, a character will execute a selected action as soon as they are in range.

[Lephys]

But Lephys, it won't happen every single time. Humans & co. will be capable of moving to another target on the battlefield and transition with grace directly into attack/defense, if their recovery time has elapsed.

My apologies. I was not very specific. I was referring to the Recovery time being paused every single time when you moved during it. Realistically, there would be plenty of times when you would recover from an attack during your movement. That's all I meant.

 

Again, that was merely a clarification of the observation I was making regarding simulation. I'm still totally fine with the system not simulating that possibility. It's mechanically sound and wouldn't really benefit from it as it is now.

[Valorian]

I'm glad you got this clarification off your chest so we can move on now.