Israel vs Palestine

[Gromnir]

 

turns out that shockley were a bit o' a racist, but he were undeniably scary brilliant. his estimates for US casualties for an invasion o' japan were 1.4-4 million US GI casualties with 400-800k o' those being deaths. his prediction for japanese deaths were even more grim: as high as 10 MILLION japanese deaths.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I don't give a rats ass about his estimates of casualties during a full-scale US invasion.

 

There was no need for any furhter invasion. No need for any furhter war. The US wasn't saving anyone at that point anymore.

 

 

is good that you reveal your lack o' any desire or capacity to be reasonable. sure, virtual all reputable historians believe either that the bombs scared japan into surrender, or that it were actual the russian deceleration o' war that set nails to proverbial japanese coffin, but that doesn't fit with your world view, so you chose not to give a  "rats ass" 'bout reason or history. 

 

is no different than your pov on israel-arab conflict. no surprise. you don't give a "rats ass" what anyone says.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valsuelm]

 

 

turns out that shockley were a bit o' a racist, but he were undeniably scary brilliant. his estimates for US casualties for an invasion o' japan were 1.4-4 million US GI casualties with 400-800k o' those being deaths. his prediction for japanese deaths were even more grim: as high as 10 MILLION japanese deaths.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I don't give a rats ass about his estimates of casualties during a full-scale US invasion.

 

There was no need for any furhter invasion. No need for any furhter war. The US wasn't saving anyone at that point anymore.

 

 

is good that you reveal your lack o' any desire or capacity to be reasonable. sure, virtual all reputable historians believe either that the bombs scared japan into surrender, or that it were actual the russian deceleration o' war that set nails to proverbial japanese coffin, but that doesn't fit with your world view, so you chose not to give a  "rats ass" 'bout reason or history. 

 

is no different than your pov on israel-arab conflict. no surprise. you don't give a "rats ass" what anyone says.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Popular history as it is taught in many schools or on the 'History Channel' does not equate to "virtual all reputable historians". Not even close.

 

Having spent a great deal of time in the history department of a couple highly respected major universities in the U.S., I can tell you that not only a good portion of the students don't hold that view but that a good portion of the professors don't hold that view. Most of the better ones, do not. They tend to know better, have the ability to think critically, and actually make use of that ability regularly.

 

That said, real history isn't a popularity contest anyways. Also, Trashman is correct.

 

BTW: Your grammar tends to suck. Work on improving it please.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Gromnir]

 

"Having spent a great deal of time in the history department of a couple highly respected major universities in the U.S."

 

have you spent a great deal o' time in history departments as a night janitor perhaps? your comments is less than illuminating. 'course the only one in this thread who has actual mentioned any reputable historians is Gromnir. has Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, for example, been on the history channel? that would be kinda cool actually. gonna need do a video search now and see if we can find some video. 

 

oh, and we love the irony. do you think your posts is free o' all grammar mistakes? that is so cute. Gromnir does purposeful, so what is your excuse?

 

"That said, real history isn't a popularity contest anyways. Also, Trashman is correct."

 

you do realize that your comments is self contradictory, no? 'course you is possibly suggesting no more than that trashman perspective is the current winner o' the popularity contest. even if trashman perspective were the one with the tiara and the sash, you has done a marvelous job o' undercutting him and his perspective. odd. in any event, the notion that japan were willing to surrender is called the "revisionist" perspective for a reason. has not been the dominant theory, ever.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: we found UCTV video for prof. Hasegawa, but no history channel. if you has such link, we would appreciate you sharing it.

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

curious aside: a most vocal critic o' tsuyoshi hasegawa has been sadao asada. prof. asada wrote his own works on the subject, but his recommendation o' a more accurate and elegant interpretation o' events were the following:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Downfall-The-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

 

(is a good read, but it would not be making trashman's reading list (or yours?) as it suggests that the bombs saved millions o' lives- asian and caucasian.)

 

criticism o' hasegawa typically appears thus:

 

"Hasegawa fails to sustain his main arguments with the necessary evidence. At best, he leaves the revisionist case as he found it, in ruins. Indeed, he makes the rubble bounce by convincingly demonstrating that the Soviet Union very much was racing to get into the Pacific War in order to facilitate its expansionist policies in the Far East. Those who seek the definitive analysis on the end of the Pacific War will have to look elsewhere. A good place to begin is Frank’s Downfall." --prof. michael kort

 

so, whatever you think o' the new theories, the revisionist stuff is widely seen as little more than hokum.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Hasegawa is an incompetent hack and servant of the Lizard-Jews from Fnsjfkbfion 7. Real knowledge comes from esteemed scholars of the order of tin-foil hats, such as Bryan the dude I sell shrooms too.

[Gromnir]

Fnsjfkbfion 7. 

Gromnir would like to buy a vowel. 

 

kinda funny, but even silent reading such words makes our brain... lurch. is no phonemes we should be struggling with, but it were like hitting a speed bump.  most curious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You'll have to speak to the Frog-Jews of aeiouuaeioaeuioaueioaeiu 85. They charge quite a bit, as the goals of all anthropomorphic-animal Jews is to make money and kill Palestinians. Shield your mind from their brain control with tinfoil, preferably heavy duty.

[Gromnir]

 

we will agree that in a perfect world history shouldn't be a popularity contest, but am thinking val misses the obvious reality that more than sixty years o' scholarship has resulted in the existence o' differing opinions on japanese willingness to surrender. the revisionist case is "in ruins," but even if it weren't, sixty years has hardly made the scenario as clear as trash would like it to be. truman didn't have those sixty years o' scholarship. if waters is muddy today (and they ain't as muddy as would be needed to benefit val or trash,) then how clear were they back at the end o' ww2?

 

"They charge quite a bit, as the goals of all anthropomorphic-animal Jews is to make money and kill Palestinians."

 

well seeing as how hamas is firing roockets into israel again, perhaps the "Frog-Jews of aeiouuaeioaeuioaueioaeiu 85" were successful.  am suspecting that once again, palestinians will be dying in gaza. clearly more tinfoil is needed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

But there are several, Saudi  Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan, Algeria and Morocco are some Muslim dominated countries that either have  no violence or limited sectarian violence. Anyone else is welcome to add to the list ?

 

Of those, perhaps Morocco. Maybe UAE and Jordan too. Maybe.

 

I know you love some Saud, but they don't love anyone who ain't Wahhabi (or Salafi, if you want to be in their good books) and love exporting that ideology to places that, surprise surprise, then get surprisingly well armed loony tunes Salafi extremists popping up. They also oppress their shia minority pretty badly, and even if you don't count their proxy groups they have directly attacked shia in other countries with their army/ air force- in Bahrain and Yemen. Qatar has few internal problems but is hardly tolerant, they also back the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, as well as extremists in Syria. Bahrain only has the Khalifas in power still because Saudi sent in x000 soldiers to crush the majority Shia. Jordan has problems with refugees of both the Syrian and Palestinian variety, albeit not sectarian ones, and the Hashemites are perennially weak and wobbly. Algeria, FIS, nuff zed; also AlQ Salafi nutbar Sahel branch is active there, eg the oil refinery seizure fairly recently. Morocco has had some problems too, but nowhere near as bad, and UAE supports much the same religious nutbars as the Saudis do, though they're at least theoretically more pluralist as they want foreign tourists.

 

Really though, if you want almost totally stable muslim countries with passably pluralist policies you want... Oman, as per virumor. Maybe Morocco and Brunei as well, depending on how you weight the factors. And that is about it, sadly.

[TrashMan]

 

 

I don't give a rats ass about his estimates of casualties during a full-scale US invasion.

 

There was no need for any furhter invasion. No need for any furhter war. The US wasn't saving anyone at that point anymore.

 

is good that you reveal your lack o' any desire or capacity to be reasonable. sure, virtual all reputable historians believe either that the bombs scared japan into surrender, or that it were actual the russian deceleration o' war that set nails to proverbial japanese coffin, but that doesn't fit with your world view, so you chose not to give a  "rats ass" 'bout reason or history. 

 

is no different than your pov on israel-arab conflict. no surprise. you don't give a "rats ass" what anyone says.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

No, I don't give a rats ass because it doesn't matter in the broader context.

Japan at that point did not present a threat to the US.

Ergo, there was no need to invade.

 

If a man breaks into your house, the "reasonable defense" doesn't hold up if you beat him back, then chase him to his home and murder him.

 

 

And I don't give a rats ass what YOU say becasue you revealed YOUR lack of "desire or capacity to be reasonable".

It's so easy to talk smack and call everyone who disagrees unreasoanble and uninformed. Of course the problem with such an approach is that is murders any discussion since it apriori discredits and insults the other party and renders them unwilling to discuss furhter (Partially because it paints you as someone who's set in their views and cannot be reasoned with, partially because it confirmes that you see them that way).

 

Also:

 

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/7/a_hideous_atrocity_noam_chomsky_on

[Gromnir]

home invasion example is perhaps your dumbest example ever. once german troops were pushed back to 1939 boarders, allied troops were s'posed to just stop, yes? but hey, those germans were beaten and would pose no serious threat to europe and the rest o' the world for at least 5 years. am not actual sure where you is from... candyland perhaps?

 

if a man breaks into Gromnir's home, destroys our property and kills our family, once we chase that villain from our home, we has the option o' calling on the police for justice and for protection from future attacks by that bastard. no such option were existing for victims o' japanese aggression and no such option exists in the power politics model. driving japan off US soil did not diminish their future threat. driving japan back would result in US needing be looking over their proverbial shoulder indefinitely. oh, and that son of a b*#@% that broke into our home were also breaking into other folks' homes, destroying their property, killing their family and raping their wives and daughters. but hey, the fact that the japanese were killing ~100,000 chinese a month in 1945 is something we should pretend never happened.

 

as for noam, he is a bright guy, and if he were voicing his opinion on development o' grammar in childrens' brains, we would listen with much attention. 

 

hey, you like myopic videos.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TrashMan]

home invasion example is perhaps your dumbest example ever. once german troops were pushed back to 1939 boarders, allied troops were s'posed to just stop, yes? but hey, those germans were beaten and would pose no serious threat to europe and the rest o' the world for at least 5 years. am not actual sure where you is from... candyland perhaps?

 

if a man breaks into Gromnir's home, destroys our property and kills our family, once we chase that villain from our home, we has the option o' calling on the police for justice and for protection from future attacks by that bastard. no such option were existing for victims o' japanese aggression and no such option exists in the power politics model. driving japan off US soil did not diminish their future threat. driving japan back would result in US needing be looking over their proverbial shoulder indefinitely. oh, and that son of a b*#@% that broke into our home were also breaking into other folks' homes, destroying their property, killing their family and raping their wives and daughters. but hey, the fact that the japanese were killing ~100,000 chinese a month in 1945 is something we should pretend never happened.

 

Army? Crushed.

Oil reserves? Depleted.

Fighting potential? Minimal.

 

No, Japan didn't pose a "Serious threat" to the US.

The US just watned a UNCONDITIONAL surrender, not a conditional one.

 

And yes, when you get the entire world arrayed agasint you and when your'e beaten badly and pushed back, I'd say you don't posses a credible threat. Nations in WW2 and generally always want to end the war on their terms regardless of cost. They don't want to just defend their territory - once they start winning they want to take as much as they can.

 

The military and industrial powerhouse that is US looking over their shoulder? HA!

You must be living in some fantasy land of your own to think Japan would be able to touch the USA near the end of the war. It was outnumbered, outteched, outgun and lacking everything, including the abiltiy to project power with it's entire navy in shambles and it's airforce a mere shadow of it's self.

[Gromnir]

if the japanese current and FUTURE threat was as small as you suggest, the estimates of casualties for an invasion o' japan would not have been in the millions. also, as already stated, in 1945 the "crushed" japanese were killing chinese at a rate of 100k a month.  and again, the situation were similar in germany, so,  distinguish. in point o' fact, germany were far less o' a threat when allies crossed the rhine. you genuine suggesting that the allies should stopped?

 

 

 

"The military and industrial powerhouse that is US looking over their shoulder? HA!"

 

damn straight. what year were war in korea? US also were very much aware that the soviet union would be a post war threat. if germany and japan had been allowed to maintain their military industrial complex 'cause naive candyland kids like trash thinks it were mean-spirited to invade, we can't even imagine what the world map would be looking like today. germany want from a shattered ww1 loser to arguably the single most capable military power in the world in a very short period o' time. the europeans and the US were not gonna make the same mistakes with post ww2 germany... and to think that the US would treat japan special 'cause they were only capable o' killing large numbers o' asians as o' summer o' 1945? 

 

and again, the japanese didn't genuine want to surrender. the russians had no intention o' mediating a surrender. you didn't bother looking at links provided. am doubting you has read Frank's Downfall.

 

but hey, am betting any number o' wannabee dictators and warlords would love your childish worldview. imagine if any invader could invade neighbors with impunity knowing that worst case scenario is that they is gonna be forced to return to their pre-war boarders. good on you for coming up with a wonderful new method for dealing with military aggression.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Army? Crushed.

Oil reserves? Depleted.

Fighting potential? Minimal.

 

No, Japan didn't pose a "Serious threat" to the US.

The US just watned a UNCONDITIONAL surrender, not a conditional one.

 

And yes, when you get the entire world arrayed agasint you and when your'e beaten badly and pushed back, I'd say you don't posses a credible threat. Nations in WW2 and generally always want to end the war on their terms regardless of cost. They don't want to just defend their territory - once they start winning they want to take as much as they can.

 

The military and industrial powerhouse that is US looking over their shoulder? HA!

You must be living in some fantasy land of your own to think Japan would be able to touch the USA near the end of the war. It was outnumbered, outteched, outgun and lacking everything, including the abiltiy to project power with it's entire navy in shambles and it's airforce a mere shadow of it's self."

 

1. Don't start something you can finish.

 

2. Don't join up with scumbag Nazis if you can't handle the punishment.

 

3. The blame is 100% on Japanese gov't.

 

4. If Japan can move on from it when they are the ones who suffered, perhaps you should. I mean, Japan and US are butt buddies now.

 

5. I  personally thinkthe nuking went overboard and was  the wrong and most wasteful thing to do no matter the excuses to justify it.

 

6.  Just admit to being an anti Amerika bigot who would support nazis, scuimbag invaders, and child users no matter what. That's cool but just admit it.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Volourn

[Wrath of Dagon]

Hamas cell leader arrested and confesses to the totally non-Hamas kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers : http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/08/05/Big-Bummer-for-NY-Magazine-Israel-Announces-Arrest-of-Hamas-Operative-Responsible-for-June-s-Kidnap-and-Murder-of-three-Israeli-teens

[HoonDing]

Oh snap.

[Volourn]

That's what the Isreali kidnappers say. That's not evidence. they could have easily tortured him into confession. I don't neccessarily think that but if you think the anti Isreali/Jew Brigade will somehow think otherwise you are mistaken.

[Gromnir]

 

 

4. If Japan can move on from it when they are the ones who suffered, perhaps you should. I mean, Japan and US are butt buddies now.

 

is noteworthy that US reconstruction efforts in japan appear to have worked very well as japan is now a peaceful trade partner and the third largest economy in the world. no radicalized extremist government. no hot-bed o' world terrorism. no crippling and endemic poverty. etc.

 

that being said, nothing comes without a price. is the world a better place with j-pop, hentai, and tasteless japanese tv commercials?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCjxzpSrFP4

 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

Well, we could always drop more nukes.

[Gromnir]

Well, we could always drop more nukes.

somebody needs some alone time with the penguin.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

That's what the Isreali kidnappers say. That's not evidence. they could have easily tortured him into confession. I don't neccessarily think that but if you think the anti Isreali/Jew Brigade will somehow think otherwise you are mistaken.

Yeah, well, it's no use to discuss things with conspiracy theorists. Any evidence is just more evidence of the conspiracy, kind of like global warming. The issue is whether it was Hamas or some other terrorists. Anyone who thinks Israelis killed their own kids are on a different astral plane anyway.

[TrashMan]

in point o' fact, germany were far less o' a threat when allies crossed the rhine. you genuine suggesting that the allies should stopped?

 

Yes.

Hitlers days were at the end anyway (with all the assasination attempts)

 

 

"The military and industrial powerhouse that is US looking over their shoulder? HA!"

 

damn straight. what year were war in korea? US also were very much aware that the soviet union would be a post war threat. if germany and japan had been allowed to maintain their military industrial complex 'cause naive candyland kids like trash thinks it were mean-spirited to invade, we can't even imagine what the world map would be looking like today.

 

What do korea and the USSR have to do with anything?

You don't need to nuke the enemy into oblivion. You don't need unconditional surrender. And you can't build a powerful navy over night (Japan sure as hell coun't, and even if they could, they couldnt' supply them with fuel)

 

 

germany want from a shattered ww1 loser to arguably the single most capable military power in the world in a very short period o' time. the europeans and the US were not gonna make the same mistakes with post ww2 germany... and to think that the US would treat japan special 'cause they were only capable o' killing large numbers o' asians as o' summer o' 1945? 

 

In which case that example just proves how ineffective it is to hit another country that hard. It just creates resentment. A couple of year in the future? The future in't written. Every country can recover given time, resources and will.

Nuking it doesn't change that.

Bombing the living s*** doesn't change that. It just costs more lives

 

and again, the japanese didn't genuine want to surrender.

 

SOME. Keyword.

 

 

but hey, am betting any number o' wannabee dictators and warlords would love your childish worldview. imagine if any invader could invade neighbors with impunity knowing that worst case scenario is that they is gonna be forced to return to their pre-war boarders. good on you for coming up with a wonderful new method for dealing with military aggression.

 

You iz eithr stupid or you don't bother reading.

I said "you don't need unconditional surrender". That does not mean "ro reparations or conditions".

 

Why do I even bother?

[TrashMan]

 

 

Just admit to being an anti Amerika bigot who would support nazis, scuimbag invaders, and child users no matter what. That's cool but just admit it.

 

Only after you admit to being a ditry, unwashed, unecudated redneck pedophile canibalistic hooker who was abducted by space aliens and forced into a weight loss program.
 

[Gromnir]

your reply/quote nonsense is... nonsense

 

first o' all, history is indeed useful at times. the US methods were, in the long run, very successful. nuke 2 cities "into oblivion" were less than would have occurred if the US had to invade. in point o' fact, the deaths caused by 2 nukes were far less than casualties that woulda resulted from enough conventional bombings to get japan to eventually capitulate. bombing o' tokyo weren't enough. btw, RUSSIA had plans to invade hokkaido as early as august 1945-- they clear weren't interested in a japanese surrender. you really should read some o' the links or sources provided. Japan is a modern, democratic, and peaceful nation, is impossible to say what woulda' become o' japan without the bombings, but we know they has things pretty good as of august 9, 2014. historty wins, for once. 

 

what does korea and ussr have to do with anything? you is mindblowing obtuse. the post ww2 situation were mighty freaking tense. to leave two angry military powers largely in tact were foolish beyond reason. the US, at the end o' ww2 were already planning on how they were gonna need deal with the soviet and other threats. add a constant threat o' reemerging japan in the pacific and germany in europe would' been insane, but we suspect we is talking to the wind at this point. am suspecting you is kinda alone in the notion that the allies shoulda' stopped before crossing into germany, and situation in japan were actual more clear as japan had near 700,000 in china alone in 1945. ww1 ends when germany gets pushed back beyond the hindenburg line... pretty much they way you wanted ww 2 to end. again, look how that worked out for the europeans.

 

"I said "you don't need unconditional surrender". That does not mean "ro reparations or conditions"."

 

*chuckle*

 

and making it obvious that you won't invade is strengthening or weakening your bargaining position? germany had been crushed after ww1, but there weren't near enough oversight o' german industry to be making sure that they didn't rebuild their military industrial complex. ask japanese and germans after ww2 to demilitarize 'cause it is the right thing to do would no doubt be very effective.

 

"Bombing the living s*** doesn't change that. It just costs more lives"

 

strategic bombing did indeed cost many lives. the two nukes AND the threat o' soviet invasion, soviets who wanted to carve out chunks o' asia, saved many lives. japanese had many millions o' ill-equipped soldiers, but a delay woulda' given substantial time to re-equip those troops. japanese navy would take years to rebuild, but by july 1945, the japanese had more than 10,000 aircaft they were reading in anticipation o' kamikaze attacks-- they believed they could increase their hit ratio to 1:6 from previous 1:9 kamikaze numbers.  japanese were hoping to delay so that US would need wait out the typhoon season before making an amphibious assault. japanese plans for "peace" were all predicated on hurting invaders hard enough during initial stages o' an invasion so that the imperial army generals could avoid war crimes tribunals and so that japanese could retain lands captured lands in various parts o' asia. 

 

your childish notions o' right woulda' cost many lives and woulda' probable seen soviet in control o' hokkaido, at the very least. oh, and it woulda' had US and europeans making the exact same mistake they made after ww1. good idea.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Only after you admit to being a ditry, unwashed, unecudated redneck pedophile canibalistic hooker who was abducted by space aliens and forced into a weight loss program."

 

I admit it. Now you admit it.