Will Pillars of Eternity have better combat system than Dragon Age Origins?

[Stun]

Are things like constant saving and reloading, repetitive, rote application of pre-buffs, trekking back and forth between a dungeon and a shop, shuffling things around in and between inventories, or repetitively killing the same respawning monsters over and over again enjoyable activities?

I don't recall electing PrimeJunta as the Minister of Fun-Defining for the world. Therefore, It's not up to him to decide what anyone else sees as fun. Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

 

 

their efforts look a bit like the following

FO:NV is superb by any standard. MotB is the least flawed NWN series game. South Park: The Stick of Truth is brilliant at what it attempts. That's three they hit out of the park, which is better than you can say for most studios as far as I'm concerned.

 

seeing as how nwn2 and storm of zehir were obsidian games, your compliment of motb is a back-handed one at best. additionally, we got a substantial list o' serious criticisms of motb that we could share in a more appropriate fora.

 

Amen.

 

But this is as good a forum as any. MoTB had a great storyline and very well written companions. And that's all it had going for it. Everything else about it was crap. It most definitely was NOT the least flawed of the NWN series (that distinction goes to NWN: SoU, which succeeded in everything BUT its story, so consequently people dismiss it)

 

MoTB....

• It was about as unbalanced as Skyrim's late game play. You can create a +8 weapon that does 18d6 damage. And it will stack with all your strength modifiers and combat skills causing you to do about 250 damage per hit. And of course you eventually get 6 attacks per round. The result: encounters become pathetically trivial affairs that last about 5 seconds.
• It was MoTB that Broke NWN2's camera. People consistently (conveniently?) forget this.
• The Spirit eater meter - while Obsidian should get some kudos for putting an addiction mechanic into a game (a very rare thing), they should not be praised for the uninspired, boring, uninteresting way they did it.
• Epic level Gnolls lol
• The Skein <gag>
• In fact, there are no good dungeons in the game at all
• Even the story has its glaring flaws. There's a big Deus ex machina at the end. A grandiose one where you think you may actually have a meaningful choice (to tear down the wall).... until a GOD (literally, a God) comes down and says: NOPE. You cannot do this. You may only save your own soul.
• As hinted at (above), the game's crafting system completely overpowers, and renders meaningless, the world's loot system.
• Contrary to whatever misguided belief or fanfoi hype you may have or heard, Obsidian did NOT succeed in making Epic Level 3e D&D gameplay interesting. They failed just as badly as NWN: HoTU did.
• The Influence system was terrible. You could mine an NPC's dialogue options every early on, get them to "devoted", and....that's it. You were pretty much done with it after that.

But back to something more interesting...

The issue people have isn't the fact that you can pre-buff before a fight. It's with the fact that you had to pre-buff before a fight that you aren't supposed to know is coming. Unless, of course, you reload the game, and pre-buff in preparation for a fight that you're not supposed to know is about to happen.

BULL

 

You didn't have to pre-buff at all... in any of the IE games... unless you were a sh*tty N00b who didn't know your party's skills, didn't know how to play, and didn't bother to read the descriptions of the spells and items you decided to use. And who's fault is THAT?

 

Not that it matters. The IE games were designed to be <gasp> challenging games, not pleasant movie simulators. So yes, pre-buffing in some fights might be important. Get over it, you lazy f*cks. "Surprise" and "difficulty" are not game flaws.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

 

Are things like constant saving and reloading, repetitive, rote application of pre-buffs, trekking back and forth between a dungeon and a shop, shuffling things around in and between inventories, or repetitively killing the same respawning monsters over and over again enjoyable activities?

I don't recall electing PrimeJunta as the Minister of Fun-Defining for the world. Therefore, It's not up to him to decide what anyone else sees as fun.

 

That's why I phrased it as a question. Are they fun? I don't think they're fun, but if you do, I can hardly argue with that.

 

Edit: I also find it a little amusing that the people who are most vehement about how metagame knowledge is TOTES NOT NECESSARY in the IE games are the ones who have played them so many times they don't even remember what it was like the first time around. Heh.

Edited April 30, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Stun]

That's why I phrased it as a question.

A dishonest loaded question. What you call "rote repetitive application of pre-buffs", a non-lazy, non-HATER of the IE games would call "using your friggin class skills to prepare for battle."

 

Edit: I also find it a little amusing that the people who are most vehement about how metagame knowledge is TOTES NOT NECESSARY in the IE games are the ones who have played them so many times they don't even remember what it was like the first time around. Heh.

Again, nonsense. Lets take the Big Daddy of the IE games. BG2. BG2 had hundreds and hundreds of fights. Of them, there are only maybe 2 fights in the entire game where meta-gaming might be necessary. And those 2 fights are hidden easter eggs. You won't even encounter them in the first place without meta knowledge. (Kangaxx, Twisted Rune)

 

All other fights can be won by buffing during battle, or not even buffing at all.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

A dishonest loaded question. What you call "rote repetitive application of pre-buffs", a non-lazy, non-HATER of the IE games would call "using your friggin class skills to prepare for battle."

Lazy, guilty as charged. Hater, not guilty, your honor.

 

We may also be talking about a slightly different thing. I'm also generalizing somewhat to the NWN series. Thing is, with long-term buffs like Bull's Strength, Emotion: Hope, Stoneskin etc., why would you ever not want to apply them? (Or in MOTB with Persistent Spell, Haste, Mass Death Ward etc).

 

The way I play, I find myself applying those standard buffs every time after rest. Every bloody time. It's repetitive, tedious, and adds nothing meaningful to the experience. For me anyway.

 

 

 

 

Edit: I also find it a little amusing that the people who are most vehement about how metagame knowledge is TOTES NOT NECESSARY in the IE games are the ones who have played them so many times they don't even remember what it was like the first time around. Heh.

Again, nonsense. Lets take the Big Daddy of the IE games. BG2. BG2 had hundreds and hundreds of fights. Of them, there are only maybe 2 fights in the entire game where meta-gaming might be necessary. And those 2 fights are hidden easter eggs. You won't even encounter them in the first place without meta knowledge. (Kangaxx, Twisted Rune)

 

 

"Metagame knowledge is TOTES NOT NECESSARY! And I know this because I've played BG2 50 times and memorized every fight!" Way to prove my point, Stun.

Edited April 30, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Quetzalcoatl]

'To grant yourself all these buffs or to deny yourself all these buffs' is not a particularly interesting choice. If the argument is that you didn't have to use the buffs, then what are they there for?      

 

The Spirit eater meter - while Obsidian should get some kudos for putting an addiction mechanic into a game (a very rare thing), they should not be praised for the uninspired, boring, uninteresting way they did it.

I don't see how they could've implemented it much better. The spirit eater feats were all very creative and had ties to story, combat (different methods for devouring animal/undead/ghost spirits) and even crafting. The problem was the imbalance: it was trivially easy to Suppress a couple of times and then basically never have to worry about the spirit hunger again.

 

Even the story has its glaring flaws. There's a big Deus ex machina at the end. A grandiose one where you think you may actually have a meaningful choice (to tear down the wall).... until a GOD (literally, a God) comes down and says: NOPE. You cannot do this. You may only save your own soul.

That's not a deus ex machina. Gods are a common part of the Forgotten Realms, they didn't come out of nowhere. Of course the option to tear down the wall would've made for a better ending, but you can blame WOTC for that, and the rule that CRPG's can't make major changes to D&D worlds.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Stun]

"Metagame knowledge is TOTES NOT NECESSARY! And I know this because I've played BG2 50 times and memorized every fight!" Way to prove my point, Stun.

And of course, a game is a failure if it is designed to shine and show its tactical depth in replays. Got it.

 

Edit: and here, have a smilie:

 

 

'To grant yourself all these buffs or to deny yourself all these buffs' is not a particularly interesting choice. If the argument is that you didn't have to use the buffs, then what are they there for?

I imagine they're there for the same reason any strategic option ever is....to give players a choice. Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Damn, Stun, you're the best entertainment in ages. "Well, OK, you're right, I was wrong, you do need metagame knowledge... but DAMN IT MAKES IT SHINE IN REPLAYS!"

 

I believe it's possible to make games with great replayability without having to rely on metagame knowledge for that. Just provide lots of alternative and mutually exclusive (re)solutions to problems it throws at you. Fallout (the original) did this extremely well, for example. FO:NV also.

[Stun]

Aah, the 4th grader's debatingmindset: My opponent admits that you may need meta-gaming in maybe 2 fights.... out of the several hundreds that that the game throws at you. This means that BG2 was all about meta gaming!

 

Derp.

 

 

I believe it's possible to make games with great replayability without having to rely on metagame knowledge for that. Just provide lots of alternative and mutually exclusive (re)solutions to problems it throws at you. Fallout (the original) did this extremely well, for example. FO:NV also.

BG2 did this. otherwise, you wouldn't be seeing a billion 'lets plays' on you tube, whole threads, whole forums, whole strategy guides devoted to the bajillion different ways to SOLO the game with a monk. Or a fighter. Or a rogue (you can't do much pre-buffing with those classes...can you! But you sure can utterly dominate everyone in the game with them) Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, Stun. Pleas explain how you can find out how to fight beholders, using only the manual supplied with the game and knowledge you can glean from the game itself, without resorting to trial-and-error through save/reload. Before you actually meet any, naturally. Talking about BG2.

 

(Next question: golems. Then, dragons. And so on.)

Edited April 30, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Stun]

Okay, Stun. Pleas explain how you can find out how to fight beholders,

You find out via discovery. You fight them the same way you fought every mage you faced prior to meeting your first beholder. And you will LEARN this in your first beholder fight. You will notice that spells are being thrown at you. your buffs are being dispelled etc. So you instinctively dog-pile that beholder with everyone in your party.

 

 

 

(Next question: golems. Then, dragons. And so on.)

Golems are a no brainer. Again. it's instinct. You hit them till they're dead. And if your weapon isn't damaging them, then... you switch to a different weapon. (but hey, never overestimate the intelligence of crappy gamers. Say.... would you also like me to explain to a first time gamer how he's supposed to learn how to access his inventory?)

 

Dragons are legendary beasts and the game specifically warns you ahead of time not to mess with them unless you're prepared, and willing to die. That is why every single dragon in BG2 is both optional and non hostile.... except for the 1 you fight about an hour before the end of the game... and THAT one you get warnings about. (and hell, if you can't utterly destroy a dragon at the point even without buffing and warnings, then you suck at the game and it's completely your fault that you do, not the game's.

 

^ see, this is what this discussion is REALLY about: Plain-Jane difficulty. You folks don't really give a **** about "meta-gaming" or "pre-buffing" or whatever pseudo argument you've been spouting here as a front. You just hate it when combat is hard and takes you by surprize. You want to be able to enter and win every fight the first time out. And that's fine. But at least be honest and ADMIT that instead of trying to make it look like your arguments have some sort of distinguished gamer "taste" to them.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

In other words, you fight them by trial and error. By dying, and reloading, repeatedly. And then using that knowledge to fight them again. Until eventually you know what they're going to throw at you, apply the necessary counters, and breeze through.

 

Which is, as I keep pointing out, meta-game knowledge. It's not something your character could know at that point.

 

So thank you for conceding the point so gracefully.

 

From where I'm at, that's not difficult. It's just tedious. It doesn't reward intelligence, paying attention to detail, doing your homework, talking to sages about what manner of beasts there are out there, and so on and so forth. The only thing it rewards is persistence. Mechanically repeating the same thing over and over again, varying one thing at a time, until you get it right.

 

You called me lazy earlier. You're right. I am. I don't like to do chores like that. I don't like to do chores like mechanically applying the same long-term buffs over and over again. I don't like repeatedly reloading the same battle until I get it right. I don't like trekking back and forth from store to dungeon and back. I don't like any of the things I characterized earlier as "not fun."

 

If you do enjoy these things, then cool, more power to you. But I enjoyed BG2 and the other IE games -- and I did enjoy them, a great deal, -- despite this kind of nonsense, not because of it.

[Stun]

In other words, you fight them by trial and error. By dying,

No, that is neither what I said, nor how it happens, unless, again, you're a sh*tty gamer who's attention is somewhere other than on the action.

 

I *remember* the first time I faced a golem in my first Bg2 playthough. It was in the D'arnise Keep. It was a clay Golem. MY party attacked it. I noticed, within about 10 seconds, that the only one doing damage to it was Anomen. So I put 2+2 together: Anomen was the only one using a blunt weapon. So...I took his weapon away from him and gave it to Korgan, who was my Best fighter. he then proceeded to utterly destroy that Golem, and all the other golems in the room, by himself.

 

After that, Golems never gave my party any trouble again.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

I did ask about beholders. You know, the ones that have abilities like Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate that will kill you with a single hit if you don't have the proper counter prepared. So, how about those?

[Stun]

I did ask about beholders. You know, the ones that have abilities like Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate that will kill you with a single hit if you don't have the proper counter prepared. So, how about those?

What about them?

 

Mages also toss insta-death spells at you. If you haven't learned from the mage fights you already had, then there's always the Shield of Balduran. If the Shield of Balduran (which you can buy in the FIRST city district you come across in the game) isn't enough, then you use your head. And if your friggin head is defective, then you memorize raise dead, then you rest then you resurrect the poor sods who died due to your stupidity. If you have no cleric, then you use the Rod of resurrection that you Bought in the same shop that has the shield of Balduran.... or found in the same sewers where you face your first beholder. (funny how that goes, eh. It's almost as if the Devs planned it that way!)

 

If you're not a shopper....and not a looter, and not a cleric, and not a mage killer, and not an intelligent gamer then by all means.... Feel free to reload. Although I'm not quite how reloading is going to help you here. That beholder will just do the same thing to you again.

 

Ironic though that you'd cite beholders. Beholders are just about the ONLY encounters in this game that Pre-buffing is pointless against. Their very first attack is a super-powerful mass dispel that removes all Buffs.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

Still, and that is my main point, why focus on the negative? I just don't get it. Pointing out shortcomings in order to help making the games better in the future is one thing, but just trash-talking in order to be kewl is something entirely different.

 

 

 

we were extreme active on the boards of earlier obsidian/black isle games. the obsidian developers made a conscious effort to listen to fans and consider advice, but that quality has diminished and so has our participation. some number o' months ago we saw a poster suggest that as the poe classes were having less defined roles, such classes were less distinctive. why have classes at all if you is just gonna make them customizable to a point o' near interchangeability? at that time we had even less o' an idea o' the specific abilities o' classes than we do now. a developer responded with a curt voloesque response of, "you are wrong."

 

...

 

we were not completely surprised by such a response, but we did suggest that a bit more of an explanation were warranted. the developer responded again that it were the poster, gifted1 if we recall correct, who were needing to provide more information before the developer would deign reply. it were kinda an illustrative exchange. gifted1 weren't being rude, and he didn't have more information to provide... and even if he did have access to more info, surely the developer had much accurate and current info, yes? nope, the developer in question were not looking to clarify the issue. developer goal were to show that the poster were wrong and little else. that were the last such example o' developer indifference we saw... not the first. we has posted very little since that time. 

 

the developers o' poe is choosing to do their way, which is fine. is no reason they need genuine listen to fans at this point. once the beta rolls around, we hope they at least consider player feedback, but at this point player input might not be useful if the developers have a clear idea of what they want to do and how to do it.  that being said, we has witnessed the degree to which obsidian developers is embracing player feedback and it don't genuine support your position. it genuine don't matter if we is positive or negative.  

 

obsidian IS providing updates on their progress and they is giving numerous little info drops 'bout what kinda game poe will eventually be. such feedback is appreciated, but it is far less reactive than previous obsidian developments. regardless, our point above that success or fail of poe is all on obsidian is undeniable-- am taking a page out o' obsidian book and aiming for right rather than helpful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ffordesoon]

@Stun:

 

So, basically, you have to play the game in one highly specific way known only to writers of strategy guides, or you're a mouth-breathing moron who doesn't deserve the greatness that is BG2. Really? There's no wiggle room in there?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Ffordesoon

[PrimeJunta]

Mages use spells from the spell list available to you, so you know -- if you read the manual -- how to counter them. Not the same thing.

[Stun]

@Stun:

 

So, basically, you have to play the game in one highly specific way known only to writers of strategy guides, or you're a mouth-breathing moron who doesn't deserve the greatness that is BG2. Really? There's no wiggle room in there?

I would hardly call a bajillion different ways to win any fight "specific". I only gave 1 way (the instinctive, pop-a-mole route) for the enemies cited. I can give many, many more, and so can just about anybody else who's played Bg2. But I was not asked to do such a thing.

 

Mages use spells from the spell list available to you, so you know -- if you read the manual -- how to counter them. Not the same thing.

It's exactly the same thing. Spell Turning will protect you from a mage's Disintigrate as well as a Beholder's disintegrate. And again, you'll discover this the very first time you face a beholder. A mage's Dispel Magic will remove your buffs just as effectively as a Beholder's anti-magic ray etc.

 

The difference of course is that BG2 gives you specific Beholder-countering items that anyone can equip.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[tajerio]

Thank goodness this game isn't BG3.

[Gromnir]

Thank goodness this game isn't BG3.

bg3, or the "black hound" game, is one that many folks who followed black isle developments would wish to see get made. such a thing is impossible, but for folks who followed the bg3 development while it lasted, your comment will find only sterile and barren soil.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[anameforobsidian]

 

I did ask about beholders. You know, the ones that have abilities like Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate that will kill you with a single hit if you don't have the proper counter prepared. So, how about those?

What about them?

 

Mages also toss insta-death spells at you. If you haven't learned from the mage fights you already had, then there's always the Shield of Balduran. If the Shield of Balduran (which you can buy in the FIRST city district you come across in the game) isn't enough, then you use your head. And if your friggin head is defective, then you memorize raise dead, then you rest then you resurrect the poor sods who died due to your stupidity. If you have no cleric, then you use the Rod of resurrection that you Bought in the same shop that has the shield of Balduran.... or found in the same sewers where you face your first beholder. (funny how that goes, eh. It's almost as if the Devs planned it that way!)

 

If you're not a shopper....and not a looter, and not a cleric, and not a mage killer, and not an intelligent gamer then by all means.... Feel free to reload. Although I'm not quite how reloading is going to help you here. That beholder will just do the same thing to you again.

 

Ironic though that you'd cite beholders. Beholders are just about the ONLY encounters in this game that Pre-buffing is pointless against. Their very first attack is a super-powerful mass dispel that removes all Buffs.

 

 

The Shield of Balduran wasn't in all editions of the game.  Resurrection breaks your ongoing relationships with other characters, and does nothing if your character gets targeted first.  The beholders lair was the first dungeon I went into after escaping from Irenicus when playing the game the first time; it's pretty easy to find with minimal fights.  And it's not obvious that beholders even cast spells until they're casting spells at you and you can see it in the window.  Once that happens, if you're a character with midling HP, good luck getting away quick enough to not die.  Or, if you're a noob wizard who barred abjuration, good luck beating a beholder without prior knowledge.

[tajerio]

 

Thank goodness this game isn't BG3.

bg3, or the "black hound" game, is one that many folks who followed black isle developments would wish to see get made. such a thing is impossible, but for folks who followed the bg3 development while it lasted, your comment will find only sterile and barren soil.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

The point of my remark wasn't that BG3 would be a bad game--I think it'd be quite good, actually.  My point was that this long turgid discussion would be relevant, and that would be hideous.

[Stun]

:::looks again at the thread title:::

 

Thank goodness this game isn't DA:O2.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

It's exactly the same thing. Spell Turning will protect you from a mage's Disintigrate as well as a Beholder's disintegrate. And again, you'll discover this the very first time you face a beholder. A mage's Dispel Magic will remove your buffs just as effectively as a Beholder's anti-magic ray etc.

Except that if you're facing a mage for the first time, you'll expect him to cast spells, because you'll know what a mage is, as you can actually play one and the mechanics are all in the manual. If you're facing a beholder for the first time, you have no idea what to expect. He'll have to kill you a few times first.

 

Which, Stun, is the point I'm making. But since it's not sinking in, I think I'll just leave it at this.