"Maidan" in US

[Valsuelm]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

 

No apology warranted. Next time post the links with your accusation.

[BruceVC]

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

 

No apology warranted. Next time post the links with your accusation.

 

 

Come on Vals, you called his bluff and he proved you wrong. You need to have the maturity to apologize or at least say " I am wrong, you were right"

 

I have said this before but there is a serious problem on these forums with some people not being able to accept they are wrong on any point or concede that someone may be right about something that they dispute

[Valsuelm]

 

 

So this guy said something very racist recently. He lost the little sympathy I had for him. 

 

Isn't it wonderful when folks call people racist and don't substantiate?

 

Take your trolling elsewhere please.

 

 

Are you kidding?  It's all over the news.  The guy is nuts, but if you've spent much time in Nevada, that should not surprise anyone.  

It doesn't really change the whole case though.  It just makes it clear that everybody involved is terrible.  

 

 

I lived in Vegas for a year a little more than a decade ago, and have been through Nevada innumerable times for work and play. I currently still have family living there, and will likely visit them later this year. I've also made the drive up/down interstate 15 between Vegas and Utah (it's a nice drive), which goes right by Bunkerville a great many times. No doubt you think I'm nuts.

 

Are you really implying that the people of Nevada are by and large nuts while simultaneously claiming one of it's residents is racist for some remarks that aren't necessarily racist? If so, look in the mirror for the bigotry you think others suffer.

 

You're right about one thing: whether or not Bundy is racist has zero bearing on his dispute with the Federal government. Public opinion might be swayed a little by his remarks, but his arguments concerning Federal power overreach are sound, and he's not remotely alone in making them.

 

And in regards to his remarks. At least the ones I've seen (I hadn't yet tuned into the propaganda machine to see what's coming out of it before I came to the forum today, but have since done some research), his remarks do not indicate he is a racist. Is he? I don't know. I'd wager not, especially since listening to him discuss and clarify his comments, in which he says a number of things a racist person likely would not say, as well as says he's not racist. But whether Bundy is or isn't racist really doesn't matter in the context of his dispute other than to serve as to marginalize him in the eyes of the unthinking or overly sensitive to vernacular.

 

What I've seen that he's said:

 

 

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

 

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.” - from the New York Times

 

 

 

 

These are not racist remarks, and he's making an observation that a great many people, both black and white, have made about the plight of many people in the black community, who are indeed in many situations very arguably modern slaves of a different sort.

 

Here's one recent example of a black person, who isn't a moron and shows the ability to discern between racist and non-racist comments, addressing Bundy's remarks.

 

 

[BruceVC]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

Wow, so much for Bundy being this great hero who stood against the Federal government. He is nothing but an ignorant racist

[Valsuelm]

 

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

 

No apology warranted. Next time post the links with your accusation.

 

 

Come on Vals, you called his bluff and he proved you wrong. You need to have the maturity to apologize or at least say " I am wrong, you were right"

 

I have said this before but there is a serious problem on these forums with some people not being able to accept they are wrong on any point or concede that someone may be right about something that they dispute

 

 

There was no bluff called. He came here initially trolling and I called him on it. To his credit he came back and took off his troll outfit.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

 

No apology warranted. Next time post the links with your accusation.

 

 

Come on Vals, you called his bluff and he proved you wrong. You need to have the maturity to apologize or at least say " I am wrong, you were right"

 

I have said this before but there is a serious problem on these forums with some people not being able to accept they are wrong on any point or concede that someone may be right about something that they dispute

 

 

There was no bluff called. He came here initially trolling and I called him on it. To his credit he came back and took off his troll outfit.

 

 

Honestly can you explain how he was trolling? I don't understand how you guys can throw this term around when it comes to some people...NKKK said Bundy was racist. Why is this trolling?

Edited April 25, 2014 by BruceVC

[Valsuelm]

 

There was no bluff called. He came here initially trolling and I called him on it. To his credit he came back and took off his troll outfit.

 

 

Honestly can you explain how he was trolling? I don't understand how you guys can throw this term around when it comes to some people...NKKK said Bundy was racist. Why is this trolling?

 

'Trolling' is a subjective term to a large degree. I'll admit that it is not the best of terms to describe what he was doing, because of it's subjectivity. What one person may view as trolling another may not. If it pleases you I'll redefine my view of what he did with his initial post, as in light of his later post it's easier to do this.

 

NKKK initially just came into a thread discussing the problems, trials, and tribulations of the Bundy Stand-off in Nevada and what all has lead to it, and where it might be going, etc, to make a statement that Bundy was racist (something that even if he is has zero bearing on the issues discussed), and because of this he lost of sympathy for Bundy (so it's ok for racists (real or perceived) to have their rights run over and be subject to what's basically military action within the U.S. borders? And someone thinking this thinks others have hate issues?). This added zero to the discussion being had, and was initially unsubstantiated (which adds nothing good to the conversation), hence me using the term 'troll', as it is part of the m.o. of a forum troll to make posts that add nothing good to the conversation and attempt to derail it.

 

An aside. It's mildly ironic that a guy going by the moniker NKKK, is accusing other folks of being racist. New Ku Klux Klan? I don't think so, but he's wide open for that misinterpretation.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Valsuelm

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Valsulem just isn't enough of a man to admit that he jumped the gun, and will spend his time searching for conspiracy documentaries rather than type an apology. Besides, NKKK is a teacher, which makes him commie scum.

 

And the idea that Black people were better off enslaved is wrong and idiotic. If you honestly believe that they were better off as property, you're a piece of ****.

[BruceVC]

 

 

There was no bluff called. He came here initially trolling and I called him on it. To his credit he came back and took off his troll outfit.

 

 

Honestly can you explain how he was trolling? I don't understand how you guys can throw this term around when it comes to some people...NKKK said Bundy was racist. Why is this trolling?

 

'Trolling' is a subjective term to a large degree. I'll admit that it is not the best of terms to describe what he was doing, because of it's subjectivity. What one person may view as trolling another may not. If it pleases you I'll redefine my view of what he did with his initial post, as in light of his later post it's easier to do this.

 

NKKK initially just came into a thread discussing the problems, trials, and tribulations of the Bundy Stand-off in Nevada and what all has lead to it, and where it might be going, etc, to make a statement that Bundy was racist (something that even if he is has zero bearing on the issues discussed), and because of this he lost of sympathy for Bundy (so it's ok for racists (real or perceived) to have their rights run over and be subject to what's basically military action within the U.S. borders? And someone thinking this thinks others have hate issues?). This added zero to the discussion being had, and was initially unsubstantiated (which adds nothing good to the conversation), hence me using the term 'troll', as it is part of the m.o. of a forum troll to make posts that add nothing good to the conversation and attempt to derail it.

 

An aside. It's mildly ironic that a guy going by the moniker NKKK, is accusing other folks of being racist. New Ku Klux Klan? I don't think so, but he's wide open for that misinterpretation.

 

 

I'm sorry but  the fact he is an ignorant racist is relevant to me, it leads directly to the sympathy I might feel for Bundy and also his own credibility. Did you read his comments? They are embarrassing

 

This whole affair has been presented like some "David vs Goliath". Supporters of Bundy see him as a poor hard working farmer just trying to eke out an existence from the interfering Federal government on land that should belong to Bundy due to the historical context

 

He was seen as a victim of some sort of tyranny and he galvanized support from various groups across the USA as he had the moral high ground.

 

But now that moral high ground is gone, he is a racist and that immediately undermines his position IMO. He should address his own bigotry and insecurity first before attacking what the Federal government is doing

Edited April 25, 2014 by BruceVC

[obyknven]

 

But now that moral high ground is gone, he is a racist and that immediately undermines his position IMO. He should address his own bigotry and insecurity first before attacking what the Federal government is doing

 

Western logic. If victim of crime is racist this is mean everything is ok. You can rob, rape or kill him.  As we known in South Africa such behaviour considered as normal ( massacres of farmers blah-blah, nobody worrying).

It's not surprising when people of ex-USSR don't want such "democracy" at home.

[NOK222]

 

 

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/cliven-bundy-shockingly-turns-out-to-be-racist.html

 

Herp Herp I'm a troll. 

 

I expect an apology for your false accusation in the next post, thanks in advance. 

 

No apology warranted. Next time post the links with your accusation.

 

 

Come on Vals, you called his bluff and he proved you wrong. You need to have the maturity to apologize or at least say " I am wrong, you were right"

 

I have said this before but there is a serious problem on these forums with some people not being able to accept they are wrong on any point or concede that someone may be right about something that they dispute

 

 

There was no bluff called. He came here initially trolling and I called him on it. To his credit he came back and took off his troll outfit.

 

Wow, you are now on my ****ing **** list. Lower your ego and learn how to be a better person. 

 

 

 

 NKKK

 

It's four goddamn K's. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by NKKKK

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

So this guy said something very racist recently. He lost the little sympathy I had for him. 

 

Isn't it wonderful when folks call people racist and don't substantiate?

 

Take your trolling elsewhere please.

 

 

Are you kidding?  It's all over the news.  The guy is nuts, but if you've spent much time in Nevada, that should not surprise anyone.  

It doesn't really change the whole case though.  It just makes it clear that everybody involved is terrible.  

 

 

I lived in Vegas for a year a little more than a decade ago, and have been through Nevada innumerable times for work and play. I currently still have family living there, and will likely visit them later this year. I've also made the drive up/down interstate 15 between Vegas and Utah (it's a nice drive), which goes right by Bunkerville a great many times. No doubt you think I'm nuts.

 

Are you really implying that the people of Nevada are by and large nuts while simultaneously claiming one of it's residents is racist for some remarks that aren't necessarily racist? If so, look in the mirror for the bigotry you think others suffer.

 

 

 

You've spent that much time in Nevada and you haven't noticed there are a lot of crazies there?  

[Meshugger]

What i have learned today:

 

1) ****-lists are apparently a serious thing on the internet. Bad things might happen to people to get on one. Like a digital frown or something.

2) Racists* do not have the same claim to justice as anyone else in the US. It must've been a clause i missed somewhere.

 

 

 

*The guy sounds like anyone else of the 'greatest generation'. They see poor black people still being dependent on the government and hanging around in their ghettos, and instead of tightening their belts, accepting that there is no free lunch and become as awesome cowboys as people like him are. They usually use slavery as a slur of any failure of man that cannot take care of himself or his family. My picture of a racist is someone going on a march at the local KKK-rally or joining Aryan Nation with the Nazi-symbols on top, so my point is that he is just an old man with a lot prejudices.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

So this guy said something very racist recently. He lost the little sympathy I had for him. 

 

Isn't it wonderful when folks call people racist and don't substantiate?

 

Take your trolling elsewhere please.

 

 

Are you kidding?  It's all over the news.  The guy is nuts, but if you've spent much time in Nevada, that should not surprise anyone.  

It doesn't really change the whole case though.  It just makes it clear that everybody involved is terrible.  

 

 

I lived in Vegas for a year a little more than a decade ago, and have been through Nevada innumerable times for work and play. I currently still have family living there, and will likely visit them later this year. I've also made the drive up/down interstate 15 between Vegas and Utah (it's a nice drive), which goes right by Bunkerville a great many times. No doubt you think I'm nuts.

 

Are you really implying that the people of Nevada are by and large nuts while simultaneously claiming one of it's residents is racist for some remarks that aren't necessarily racist? If so, look in the mirror for the bigotry you think others suffer.

 

 

 

You've spent that much time in Nevada and you haven't noticed there are a lot of crazies there?  

 

 

I wouldn't say that there are more than in Utah or Arizona. In California however, sheeesh.

[Hurlshort]

Arizona is all 'let's build walls in the desert' crazy.  Utah is mormon crazy.  California is kind of split crazy, you've got the hollywood crazy, the dotcom crazy, the central valley crazy, the Humboldt/Santa Cruz crazy.  Berkeley is like another planet.

 

But even with all that, Nevada is bit further over the edge.  You've got all this open space, with small pockets of either ultra conservative small towns or meccas for gambling and prostitution.  It's cray cray.

 

(Although Arizona apparently gets a fair amount of the crazy mormons, since Utah is actively trying to push them out.) 

[Meshugger]

Well, i do not deny that. It was just much more visible in Cali. For example, at the line to the bathroom at a gas station in Malibu, a guy complained about his hip-problems. Two girls promptly responded with a crystal-mother-gaia chant for his hip. Apparently i was the only one there thinking that it was really weird.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

Well, i do not deny that. It was just much more visible in Cali. For example, at the line to the bathroom at a gas station in Malibu, a guy complained about his hip-problems. Two girls promptly responded with a crystal-mother-gaia chant for his hip. Apparently i was the only one there thinking that it was really weird.

 

So you thought that California was full of weirdo's. And obviously that was the state you found yourself  the most comfortable in?

Edited April 25, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

2) Racists* do not have the same claim to justice as anyone else in the US. It must've been a clause i missed somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

You getting cheeky young man, I'll send your to your room without dinner if you don't stop

[Meshugger]

 

Well, i do not deny that. It was just much more visible in Cali. For example, at the line to the bathroom at a gas station in Malibu, a guy complained about his hip-problems. Two girls promptly responded with a crystal-mother-gaia chant for his hip. Apparently i was the only one there thinking that it was really weird.

 

So you thought that California was full of weirdo's. And obviously that was the state you found yourself  the most comfortable in?

 

 

Climate-wise and just the view of driving along the California 1 from LA to SA made it the best state in that regard. Colorado, Utah and Arizona were also breathtaking with their vast vistas. But for people, i would have to vote for Texas. They were very open and welcoming, and had that live-and-let-live combined with the straight talk-attitude.

 

//EDIT: Or the wonderful greenery along Shenandoah and Blue Ridge Parkway. Difficult to decide, in the very end.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

 

 

2) Racists* do not have the same claim to justice as anyone else in the US. It must've been a clause i missed somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

You getting cheeky young man, I'll send your to your room without dinner if you don't stop

 

 

What? I am just using the argument right back. Justice should be blind and all that.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well, i do not deny that. It was just much more visible in Cali. For example, at the line to the bathroom at a gas station in Malibu, a guy complained about his hip-problems. Two girls promptly responded with a crystal-mother-gaia chant for his hip. Apparently i was the only one there thinking that it was really weird.

 

So you thought that California was full of weirdo's. And obviously that was the state you found yourself  the most comfortable in?

 

 

Climate-wise and just the view of driving along the California 1 from LA to SA made it the best state in that regard. Colorado, Utah and Arizona were also breathtaking with their vast vistas. But for people, i would have to vote for Texas. They were very open and welcoming, and had that live-and-let-live combined with the straight talk-attitude.

 

//EDIT: Or the wonderful greenery along Shenandoah and Blue Ridge Parkway. Difficult to decide, in the very end.

 

 

Its interesting but all the Texans I've ever met in South Africa were these rugged and tough hunters. Very stereotypical

 

Did you eat classic Texas ribs and steak?

Edited April 25, 2014 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

Several times. The best that i had was in Waco of all places.

 

In Amarillo, i tried 1/4-version of the legendary 72oz-steak. I can recommend that place just for the place itself. They had a house-band that played songs after customers wishes, and when someone said "Country Roads by John Denver", the whole place started to sing along. It was the most Americana-moment that i have had to date. 

[Hurlshort]

You guys are getting me excited about my trip across the south this summer.  I've never really been to Texas, so driving across it and spending a few days in San Antonio should be an adventure.  

[BruceVC]

Several times. The best that i had was in Waco of all places.

 

In Amarillo, i tried 1/4-version of the legendary 72oz-steak. I can recommend that place just for the place itself. They had a house-band that played songs after customers wishes, and when someone said "Country Roads by John Denver", the whole place started to sing along. It was the most Americana-moment that i have had to date. 

 

That sounds amazing, I have been to several states in the USA but not Texas. I want to go. I often see various Texas steakhouses on the Food Network Channel that look seriously awesome. These massive and juicy portions of meat

[BruceVC]

You guys are getting me excited about my trip across the south this summer.  I've never really been to Texas, so driving across it and spending a few days in San Antonio should be an adventure.  

 

Nice, this will be your normal family outing?