Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[Tagaziel]

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

I would say it's privilege blindness, though the western privilege is more subtle than male or white privilege. You take safety, political liberty, freedom of speech, and other rights for granted, to the point that they are not valued at all.

 

Amazingly people in Western countries are allowed to think differently than what their masters think, no ? I don't know why you can call one side narrative and the other is truth, given the penchant of both for lying through their teeth.

Malc, we are not disagreeing with your right to an opinion, but the opinion itself.

[BruceVC]

 

Both? care to elaborate who are the two sides in this argument..

Really ? You've been preaching enough through these threads that the sides should be obvious.

 

No I mentioned valid criticism is important and necessary

Yes, but the second half is about people being distrustful of their governments and don't stand behind what they do (not sure why you mention that unless you mean to imply that is required).

 

 He means the pro and anti-Russian debates we have. But don't worry Mor you are on the good guys side

[Malcador]

Malc, we are not disagreeing with your right to an opinion, but the opinion itself.

Right, when it's framed the way he did, it certainly comes across as the former. Also, how exactly is it privilege at work to...doubt what your government says ? Or point out hypocrisies, etc.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

I would say it's privilege blindness, though the western privilege is more subtle than male or white privilege. You take safety, political liberty, freedom of speech, and other rights for granted, to the point that they are not valued at all.

 

 

That's a much better way of making the point I was trying to make, " privilege blindness". I like that, I'm going to start using that if you don't mind. I like the concept and what it means. And what's interesting since I am looking at some of the complaints from someone who doesn't live in a first world country I agree wholeheartedly with that description

[Mor]

@Malc, it is a simple question, I know that one of the sides is some 30 countries from the developed world, which are located west of Russia. What is the other side? (see, I didn't brought up the masters crap)

 

@Sarex, yes a bare link is better than making fun of yourself by stating what in your oppion it proves, btw didn't someone recently mentioned confirmation bias?

Edited April 15, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

It is a simple question, I know one side is some 30 countries from the developed world, which are located west of Russia. What is the other side? (I didn't even brought up the masters crap)

Well given that Bruce was referring to Anti-Western and pro-Russian.  Also "masters crap", heh, referring to the government - the guys that rule over you, remember ?

[JadedWolf]

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

I would say it's privilege blindness, though the western privilege is more subtle than male or white privilege. You take safety, political liberty, freedom of speech, and other rights for granted, to the point that they are not valued at all.

 

I honestly think the best way to pay tribute to political liberty and freedom of speech is to remain critical of government, and to never blindly follow whatever the establishment says, but to demand answers when something doesn't seem right. In a world where there is free speech but no one dares to show dissent because it is "unpatriotic" democracy is dead.

 

Of course, these are two extremes of the spectrum. There has to be a middle way where people can be critical of government without it crippling the health and safety of the state.

[Mor]

remove

Edited April 15, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

 

It is a simple question, I know one side is some 30 countries from the developed world, which are located west of Russia. What is the other side? (I didn't even brought up the masters crap)

Well given that Bruce was referring to Anti-Western and pro-Russian.  Also "masters crap", heh, referring to the government - the guys that rule over you, remember ?

 

So.. Russia, North Korea, Iran and many other good guys from Middle east and Africa etc. Great company, but my feelings about said company aside, what we have is basically the developed/richer countries vs the undeveloped/poorer guys?

[Malcador]

Well, in this thread it's apparently Russia vs West or so some see it as.

[Hassat Hunter]

Heh, didn't intend to put a whole Snowden discussion out there. And I see someone complaining saying one bad thing about Russia is 'defender of the West'... I can say plenty of bad stuff about Russia. But in this case, they're just damned right. The EU and US should have had nothing to bring in the Ukrain crisis. It could have been intern. But no, they had to go there and support to get a border for the NATO against Russia. And now we might get war.
Maybe, just MAYBE, we're pissed off about that. Political Power games over the backs of the entire world. It's not something I would want to support, and the better we can resolve the Ukrain crisis without ****storm, the better. Sadly, the West is trying to make this all kinds of impossible, and seems to monger for war (and then claims it's all Russia's doing merely for bringing their troops to a border to a hotzone, something every country would have done).

Also, Bruce is right about the NSA. Now, this is secret, so shush shush, but the UK, Germany, Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders where planning a MAJOR terrorist attack on the US. It was only thanks to Prism taps on them all that this was narrowly prevented. Currently we're doing a major program into the WWF, suspecting suicide bomber panda's. The UN might be involved to, so we listen to them aswell. As well as a 14-year old somewhere in Europe who's party will be 'the bomb' next friday. We're on high alert!

Goofing off outside, yeah, probably time to return to Ukrain.
Remember the international complains of excessive force in Kiev? Remember the army there? Tanks? Planes and helicopters doing attacks? No?
Well, I see them in East-Ukrain, and where's the international commotion now? The outrage?
It's even against Ukrain constitution to use the army against it's own people, but hey, stamp 'terrorist' on them and it's okay. Even though I never seen an anti-terror team with jets or tanks yet. It's an interim government, but it's breaking all kinds of conventions said to fight it's own people.
And it's completely silent in the UN or Western front.

That's what we call 'selective critism' or 'hypocrisy'

However, as pointed out, by fleeing to Russia, he has prevented this. He has also given ammunition to anyone who wants to discredit him, as choosing Putin as his protector is very doubtful.

Were was he to go? He asked EU-puppets, but they would all simply turn him over to the US. So there was really just one place that would definitely never turn him over and go there.
I suppose "self-protection" is very doubtful in the US these days?

Heck, they even landed some countries (can't recall) president's plane (with the president on it) because they thought Snowden was on it. In Europe!
So no surprise he didn't feel safe here in the EU.

He was a corrupt oligarch who encouraged the corruption of Ukraine, used Berkut to terrorize political opponents, and directly led to the escalation of violence at Euromaidan.

And he's replaced by... well... people who match all of these descriptions to the spot too. What's the improvement for citizens of Ukrain I ask you? Raised Russian oil prices? How's that super-boon turning out for them so far?
If you replace something bad by something equally bad or worse, what's the point? That's also happened in Egypt for example.
So far, they have definitely shown themselves to be much worse.

Russia is rapidly becoming an authoritarian state, repressing sexual minorities, waging war on sovereign countries (Georgia and Ukraine are two examples) to make a land grab, and is currently using special forces troops to annex another region of Ukraine. Even if the EU and the US are guilty of similar in some aspects, this does not give Russia a free pass.

USA is rapidly becoming an authoritarian state, repressing/spying on it's own people, repressing people in other countries, spying on *everyone* in the world, waging war on sovereign countries (Afghanistan and Iraq are two examples) to make a land grab, and is currently using 'diplomacy' to annex what it can from Ukrain. Even if Russia is guilty of similar in some] aspects, this does not give US/EU a free pass.

See how you can switch out Russia and US and have the same result. Of course, that makes me a Russia lover, always choosing them. Or maybe, MAYBE I just agree with them on THIS crisis. If the EU and US just let Euromaiden run it's course we wouldn't have so much issues, but no, they just had to interfere to make a bridge from the EU to Russia.

And for Ukrains sake, if it is to be invaded, it would do better to do so by Russia than the US, who have shown that ruling a country half-the-world away isn't all that easy.
And the EU is just incompetent. I'm ashamed to be part of a system so dumb.

The amount of support for the Russian narrative is interesting, though, particularly coming from people living in the EU and the US.

As stated, just because I live in the EU doesn't mean I agree with all it and the US do. We just roll over and lie down for the US to waltz all over us in all matters. I wish we could make a stand against. But I guess the EU is too troubled but putting money down the drain, and then hoping the countries it forms pay it more money to handle extremely badly.
I've seen from the start that things wouldn't become better for Ukrain if they go for the EU for support and trade. Sad to see it going into effect.
And also how the EU just after the riots gave 1.2 billion euro to Ukrain's new corrupt politici, no questions asked.

Did I say yet they're an incompent bag of ****?

EDIT:

Malc, we are not disagreeing with your right to an opinion, but the opinion itself.

My opinion is the right opinion. Yours is the wrong opinion. That's how democracy works.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Tagaziel]

Right, when it's framed the way he did, it certainly comes across as the former. Also, how exactly is it privilege at work to...doubt what your government says ? Or point out hypocrisies, etc.

Being able to point out these shortcomings is a privilege. You know your history, I believe, so I won't insult your intelligence.

 

That's a much better way of making the point I was trying to make, " privilege blindness". I like that, I'm going to start using that if you don't mind. I like the concept and what it means. And what's interesting since I am looking at some of the complaints from someone who doesn't live in a first world country I agree wholeheartedly with that description

I wish I could lay claim to the expression, but I recall first finding it on RationalWiki.

 

I honestly think the best way to pay tribute to political liberty and freedom of speech is to remain critical of government, and to never blindly follow whatever the establishment says, but to demand answers when something doesn't seem right. In a world where there is free speech but no one dares to show dissent because it is "unpatriotic" democracy is dead.

 

Of course, these are two extremes of the spectrum. There has to be a middle way where people can be critical of government without it crippling the health and safety of the state.

That's my point. Absolute trust is just as bad as absolute cynicism. The middle ground is being critical, but also giving your elected representatives a modicum of trust. I may be critical of some policies of Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk (two leaders in charge of the countries I live in), but I support and trust them to be good to the country and so far, I don't complain.

 

After all, if politicians are corrupt and you continue voting them in, what does that say about you?

[213374U]

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

Think for just a second of what you really know about the snubby twats you are lambasting with such gleeful abandon—their life experiences, their backgrounds, their activities and involvements. Whatever mental image you have of "them", you might as well substitute it with a ****ing talking oven, because that's about as close as you are going to get at an accurate depiction. And hey, at least you'll get a chuckle each time you think of "them".

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

[Sarex]

 

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

Think for just a second of what you really know about the snubby twats you are lambasting with such gleeful abandon—their life experiences, their backgrounds, their activities and involvements. Whatever mental image you have of "them", you might as well substitute it with a ****ing talking oven, because that's about as close as you are going to get at an accurate depiction. And hey, at least you'll get a chuckle each time you think of "them".

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

I think she was trolling them, not 100% sure so don't take my word on it.

[BruceVC]

 

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

Think for just a second of what you really know about the snubby twats you are lambasting with such gleeful abandon—their life experiences, their backgrounds, their activities and involvements. Whatever mental image you have of "them", you might as well substitute it with a ****ing talking oven, because that's about as close as you are going to get at an accurate depiction. And hey, at least you'll get a chuckle each time you think of "them".

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

 

No offense 2133 but you have created this perception of yourself. You can't attack people because of how you portray yourself

 

I have been called a SJW but its not in a complimentary way. And that's fine because I stand by social justice principles so I take the criticism with the support I get

[Malcador]

Yeah, but the term 'privilege' is bandied about like a hammer these days, so it's as if you think they are are bad things.  Shade above the "Oh yeah, well why don't you criticize Iran and see how they like it?" you hear bandied at protestors by some people.

 

And eh, absolute cynicism isn't that bad.  You'll end up realizing your politicians are either veteran whores or whores in training and stop voting and become disinterested.  Absolute trust means you're more apt to be used.

[213374U]

 

 

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

Think for just a second of what you really know about the snubby twats you are lambasting with such gleeful abandon—their life experiences, their backgrounds, their activities and involvements. Whatever mental image you have of "them", you might as well substitute it with a ****ing talking oven, because that's about as close as you are going to get at an accurate depiction. And hey, at least you'll get a chuckle each time you think of "them".

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

I think she was trolling them, not 100% sure so don't take my word on it.

 

 

I blame Bruce, he broke my troll-o-meter with his last few posts.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

Think for just a second of what you really know about the snubby twats you are lambasting with such gleeful abandon—their life experiences, their backgrounds, their activities and involvements. Whatever mental image you have of "them", you might as well substitute it with a ****ing talking oven, because that's about as close as you are going to get at an accurate depiction. And hey, at least you'll get a chuckle each time you think of "them".

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

I think she was trolling them, not 100% sure so don't take my word on it.

 

 

I blame Bruce, he broke my troll-o-meter with his last few posts.

 

 

I am honestly not trolling, please stop suggesting that

[JadedWolf]

You'll end up realizing your politicians are either veteran whores or whores in training and stop voting and become disinterested.

 

And then you see an actually decent politician, one with his heart in the right place. One who has good factual knowledge, debates politely and doesn't desire to debase himself with cheap populism.

 

And you know he's pretty much toast because he's clearly chosen the wrong profession.

[Mor]

Well, in this thread it's apparently Russia vs West or so some see it as.

you don't say! I vaguely recall something about this from a while back... So basically in your comparison you gave the same weight to what Russia claim and a group of some 30 countries from North America to Europe with varied political/economical policies diplomacy etc. Tell me how are you usually categorizing someone who claims that everyone around him are wrong and biased. Edited April 15, 2014 by Mor

[BruceVC]

 

You'll end up realizing your politicians are either veteran whores or whores in training and stop voting and become disinterested.

 

And then you see an actually decent politician, one with his heart in the right place. One who has good factual knowledge, debates politely and doesn't desire to debase himself with cheap populism.

 

And you know he's pretty much toast because he's clearly chosen the wrong profession.

 

:lol:

 

I have to say that's.....a jaded view... of politics wolfmeister

[Malcador]

you don't say! I vaguely recall something about this from a while back... So basically in your comparison you gave the same weight to what Russia claim Russia and a group of some 30 countries from North America to Europe, with varied political/economical policies diplomacy etc. Tell me how are you usually categorizing someone who claims that everyone around him are wrong and biased.

In this forum thread, remember. That would seem to be the two sides as mainly it's the West/NATIO wagging their finger and squaring up to Russia over Crimea. So that's the two sides in the squabble we've been wasting time over.

[Hassat Hunter]

Okay, it seems my mega-post got a bit ignored (which sucks, took a long time writing), but would still love an answer to it's most pressing question.

 

What do people think about Ukrainian government using the military against *it's own people*?
Especially people who found Kiev was excessive against protesters may reply...

[BruceVC]

Okay, it seems my mega-post got a bit ignored (which sucks, took a long time writing), but would still love an answer to it's most pressing question.

 

What do people think about Ukrainian government using the military against *it's own people*?

Especially people who found Kiev was excessive against protesters may reply...

 

I think the relevant question is would any government in the world, that wasn't involved in a civil war, allow armed protesters to occupy official buildings?

 

And I think the Ukrainian government has been very patient with the protesters so far

[Hassat Hunter]

They did in Kiev.