Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[Malcador]

So lay out what Snowden should have done and what you dream the outcome would have been.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Hold hard there, buddy (Valsuelm). It's not 'Ze West' who have behaved in a polarised fashion. It's quite plain that 'Ze West' hadn't made any plans to act in teh event of a dramatic move West or East by the Ukraine.

 

Conversely Putin has laid claim to 'his' ethnic Russians. Whatever the **** that actually means. It's Russian troops motoring around the Crimea right now, not NATO.

 

You want 'not polarised' how about Ukrainians who - and I'm only guessing - don't want the future their country decided by a handful of armed yahoos?

 

I hope you're joking. Bad joke if you are. If you're not, add your name, along with Tagaziel's and JadedWolf's in bold next to BruceVC's in my post, as what I said went way over your head.

 

 

Add my name in bold?

 

Look, what you 'nerds' don't seem to realise is that you do not want a world in which your official servants make up their own minds unilaterally about what can and cannot be shared with everyone else.

 

The key thing is that I'm not anti-democratic. Democracy means no witch-burnings. It's rule of law. Not rule by the gun or the mob.

 

What you fools seem  to be in favour of is what I like to call the 'upskirt' version of democracy. It's the lazy, self-hating weirdo's idea of how government should work. democracy is hard work. You have to pay attention, not rely on white knights cantering around governmentg agencies feeding you what you need to know in the nick of time like a bloody fairy tale.

 

 

Oh no Walsie ...you getting your name added in bold along with the other  incorrigible reprobates like JadedWolf, Tagaziel and me. How will you able to live with yourself..the shame...the utter shame

[Sarex]

Add my name in bold?

 

Look, what you 'nerds' don't seem to realise is that you do not want a world in which your official servants make up their own minds unilaterally about what can and cannot be shared with everyone else.

 

The key thing is that I'm not anti-democratic. Democracy means no witch-burnings. It's rule of law. Not rule by the gun or the mob.

 

What you fools seem  to be in favour of is what I like to call the 'upskirt' version of democracy. It's the lazy, self-hating weirdo's idea of how government should work. democracy is hard work. You have to pay attention, not rely on white knights cantering around governmentg agencies feeding you what you need to know in the nick of time like a bloody fairy tale.

 

Lol, you are too cute. You really think democracy as a system works?

[Meshugger]

So lay out what Snowden should have done and what you dream the outcome would have been.

 

He should've contacted his superior, and if the answer was negative, he should've just let it be.

[BruceVC]

 

Add my name in bold?

 

Look, what you 'nerds' don't seem to realise is that you do not want a world in which your official servants make up their own minds unilaterally about what can and cannot be shared with everyone else.

 

The key thing is that I'm not anti-democratic. Democracy means no witch-burnings. It's rule of law. Not rule by the gun or the mob.

 

What you fools seem  to be in favour of is what I like to call the 'upskirt' version of democracy. It's the lazy, self-hating weirdo's idea of how government should work. democracy is hard work. You have to pay attention, not rely on white knights cantering around governmentg agencies feeding you what you need to know in the nick of time like a bloody fairy tale.

 

Lol, you are too cute. You really think democracy as a system works?

 

 

We don't think anything Sarex, we know it works for the majority of its citizens. Yes it has its problems but its still the best system we have for political stability

 

And I'm not even talking about it from a USA perspective but from a South African perspective where we have real challengers with our fledging democracy

[Malcador]

Well, like an old quote says, it works better than the alternatives.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

Edited April 15, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[BruceVC]

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

I always wanted to ask you how that landing at Normandy was Indira....you fought the good fight for Democracy then

[Malcador]

 

So lay out what Snowden should have done and what you dream the outcome would have been.

 

He should've contacted his superior, and if the answer was negative, he should've just let it be.

 

Ahh, well damn, he's an idiot then.

[IndiraLightfoot]

BruceVC: By golly! I'd be darned if I didn't!

Edited April 15, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Meshugger]

Walsingham, a warm thank you for that pearl of wisdom, hopefully a jagged little pill for those snubby twats who just ruminate the same laissez faire-arguments over and over again in threads like this. Some of us are old enough, and have life experience enough, to recall a world where democracies and fair justice systems were something that you had to fight for and defend, and then these very same entities took active participation and engagement that went light years beyond being ****y over the internet in endless ego-bloated fits of snotty regurgitations. I share your sentiment and anger over this new disorder of things.

 

Hear, hear.

 

I remember my granddad's, a decorated WWII-veteran, last words before dying. "Always remember this, kid: We did not fight for our homes, our families, our lands or our freedoms. Know that we fought for the most precious desire of any friend of liberty. Know that we fought for the security apparatus mandated the central intelligence community, right, yes RIGHT to spy on us, check our movements, read our letters and interpret our intensions and thoughts. That is the true will of any free man to do for his country. And when the times comes, you will have to fight for it as well. Always be ready, my grandson. You are my blood, know that it is your destiny, know that you that you have to FIGHT with every fibre of your being. Know that security through the checks of the authorities is true freedom for your children.

 

Always remember.

 

.Always."

 

 

I am such a failure

[Tagaziel]

Elerond: Thanks for your reply! That makes a lot of sense, but for one thing: I mean, as journalists they must have been aware that the stuff they were spreading on was highly classified info. How about that issue?

We are entering the field of individual conscience, rather than law. The journalists likely believed they were acting in the interest of citizenry and it can be easily argued that Snowden's reveal was made in the public interest. However, as pointed out, by fleeing to Russia, he has prevented this. He has also given ammunition to anyone who wants to discredit him, as choosing Putin as his protector is very doubtful.

 

I'm concerned that this thread has been dominated by whitewashing attempts, attempting to pass off Yanukovych as some kind of virtuous dove of peace, chased out of Ukraine by Nazis. He wasn't. He was a corrupt oligarch who encouraged the corruption of Ukraine, used Berkut to terrorize political opponents, and directly led to the escalation of violence at Euromaidan. His troops kidnapped, tortured, and killed protesters. That is a fact. Trying to pass him off as equivalent to the Belgian royal family or Snowden is just beyond ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, Russia is being presented as the equivalent of the European Union and the United States, in all aspects, including moral. As problematic the EU is at times and how problematic the US state can be, this is a ridiculous assertion. Russia is rapidly becoming an authoritarian state, repressing sexual minorities, waging war on sovereign countries (Georgia and Ukraine are two examples) to make a land grab, and is currently using special forces troops to annex another region of Ukraine. Even if the EU and the US are guilty of similar in some aspects, this does not give Russia a free pass. Tu quoque is a fallacy.

 

The amount of support for the Russian narrative is interesting, though, particularly coming from people living in the EU and the US.

 

EDIT: "Incorrigible reprobate". Man, Bruce, stop seducing me with your silver tongue.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Tagaziel

[IndiraLightfoot]

@Meshugger:

 

[BruceVC]

The amount of support for the Russian narrative is interesting, though, particularly coming from people living in the EU and the US.

 

EDIT: "Incorrigible reprobate". Man, Bruce, stop seducing me with your silver tongue.

 

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

[Malcador]

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

Amazingly people in Western countries are allowed to think differently than what their masters think, no ? I don't know why you can call one side narrative and the other is truth, given the penchant of both for lying through their teeth.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

Amazingly people in Western countries are allowed to think differently than what their masters think, no ? I don't know why you can call one side narrative and the other is truth, given the penchant of both for lying through their teeth.

 

But some of the comments are more than just disagreeing with there government, in fact we should raise reasonable and valid issues about our governments. What I see is that some think that there are governments just cannot be trusted to anything right and they never stand behind what there governments do, its always criticism and not enough support or recognition

[JadedWolf]

I fully admit being bitter and disillusioned toward the West. Or the East. Or humanity in general, if you prefer.

 

I'm still on the fence about squirrels. Sometimes, when they look at you with their beady eyes... -Shudder-

 

As for this topic... When you are painted as a stooge of the West for daring to say anything critical about Russia, what's the point of even trying to debate?

[BruceVC]

I fully admit being bitter and disillusioned toward the West. Or the East. Or humanity in general, if you prefer.

 

I'm still on the fence about squirrels. Sometimes, when they look at you with their beady eyes... -Shudder-

 

As for this topic... When you are painted as a stooge of the West for daring to say anything critical about Russia, what's the point of even trying to debate?

 

Would you say you are.... jaded ....

[JadedWolf]

 

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

Amazingly people in Western countries are allowed to think differently than what their masters think, no ? I don't know why you can call one side narrative and the other is truth, given the penchant of both for lying through their teeth.

 

But some of the comments are more than just disagreeing with there government, in fact we should raise reasonable and valid issues about our governments. What I see is that some think that there are governments just cannot be trusted to anything right and they never stand behind what there governments do, its always criticism and not enough support or recognition

 

 

If your "government" is the E.U. though, you have every right to call it on its incompetence.

Edited April 15, 2014 by JadedWolf

[Malcador]

But some of the comments are more than just disagreeing with there government, in fact we should raise reasonable and valid issues about our governments. What I see is that some think that there are governments just cannot be trusted to anything right and they never stand behind what there governments do, its always criticism and not enough support or recognition

So, people being cynical and untrustworthy about politicians is bad to you ?

[obyknven]

Result of combat in Kramatovsk today.

 

Ukrainian "National guards" aka Right sector attack airport in Kramatovsk today . They outnumbered local militia, use tanks and helicopters against them. Local militia and protesters lose 3 people dead and 10 people wounded, by other sources loses are bigger (~ 11 dead). After this unarmed local citizens (~ 1000) surround Ukrainian punishers and blocked them at airfield.

 

 

In other villages and towns of Eastern Ukraine conflicts between local citizens and Nazi National Guards happened also.

http://youtu.be/-oGty-RoFBk

 

Foreign minister of Donetsk republic make statement about this violent invasion of Kievan army.

http://youtu.be/LV4WHyk6a4M

[Mor]

 

This is what surprises me the most. The amount of Russian support and anti-Western comments from people who have lived and benefitted from first world Western countries there whole lives. Sarex I understand, he is bitter and disillusioned towards the West because of a perception how Serbia has been treated. I don't agree with him but I understand. But the rest.....

 

Amazingly people in Western countries are allowed to think differently than what their masters think, no ? I don't know why you can call one side narrative and the other is truth, given the penchant of both for lying through their teeth.

 

Both? care to elaborate who are the two sides in this argument..

[BruceVC]

 

But some of the comments are more than just disagreeing with there government, in fact we should raise reasonable and valid issues about our governments. What I see is that some think that there are governments just cannot be trusted to anything right and they never stand behind what there governments do, its always criticism and not enough support or recognition

So, people being cynical and untrustworthy about politicians is bad to you ?

 

No I mentioned valid criticism is important and necessary

[Sarex]

I am just gonna leave this here.

 

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf

 

edit: To elaborate, it's a paper on the US government and how in fact it's an oligarchy. The paper is not finished yet but it paints a pretty picture.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Sarex

[Malcador]

Both? care to elaborate who are the two sides in this argument..

Really ? You've been preaching enough through these threads that the sides should be obvious.

 

No I mentioned valid criticism is important and necessary

Yes, but the second half is about people being distrustful of their governments and don't stand behind what they do (not sure why you mention that unless you mean to imply that is required).