Turn-Based or Real Time

[Darkpriest]

 

It's something that Firaxis grasped well with their XCOM and TB combat

 

That's about all I have to say to that comment.

 

 

What's wrong with it? It's fairly easy to access, elegant, fast paced, yet tactical with meaningful choices... what's not to like it for a computer game based squad TB combat?

[Sensuki]

RTwP however requires more skill RTwP require more skill

No it doesn't lol. You've consistently ignored anything to do with pause and ignored the statement about the weight of individual actions in turn-based combat. If you're going to go for a Real-time versus turn-based argument - try saying that (this is a bad comparison) Air Hockey requires more skill than chess - not going to happen.

 

Real-time PC games are not Air Hockey and Turn-based games are not chess, but the point still stands.

 

 

This is true. Another reason why RTwP is so great, good that you pointed this out.

And that is something that makes it easier.

 

 

I would still like to hear your theory on the "direct correlation between enjoyment of turn-based combat and the difficulty setting preference of the player". I have already asked you three times.

I think that there would be a statistical relation to the people who like turn-based games with preference for harder difficulties, and a statistical relation to preference for RTwP games and easier difficulties. Note the key word - statistical relation, as you state down the bottom you prefer hard as well, so that doesn't include you. But from the posts on here, the kickstarter comment, smudboy's stupid youtube arguments a lot of the people who hate turn-based are 'storyfags' who don't care about combat.

 

 

If you start casting a spell and decide to cancel for some reason, then your character looses the entire round, it can't be corrected. The stakes of individual actions are also very high in RTwP games like BG, having a character loose an entire round can really hurt. Loosing a round means that 6 seconds of gameplay are practically lost because your character can't really do anything other than run around and possibly dodge AoE spells.

That is still more than what you can do in turn-based - nothing.

 

 

Canceling spells or actions or issuing new movement commands is not only possible in a RTwP game but often times also required. This of course complicates combat. Like I wrote, RTwP requires more skill, a player has to constantly be aware of every current and potential action and react accordingly in realtime. In a turn based game, you just issue commands in order (of course with a basic tactic in mind) and that is basically it. Turn based is essentially a rather simple sytem.

Yes this is one of the things that I think makes RTwP fun. Not necessarily harder, just requires more inputs per minute. Chess is also a simple game, yet it is possibly the most skill-based board game in the world.

 

 

More actions are required in a RTwP game, the combat is more complicated. Not necessarily more challenging, just more complicated and faster paced. Constantly hitting the spacebar to pause the game does not make a RTwP game any less complicated anyway. Some people just find RTwP combat confusing, that's the way it is. Some people will just never like turn-based combat.

No it isn't always more complicated. It depends on the systems. Turn-based systems and RTwP systems rely on the underlying character and combat systems for their depth. There are not too many RTwP games that have heaps of options for all characters. The best examples are probably 7.62 High Caliber and XCOM Apocalypse I guess. I do like Baldur's Gate 2 though.

 

 

And yes, the sluggish and inept can and will abuse the space bar if they play a RTwP games. Anyway, I don't understand how you think they can enjoy a RTwP game as much as a turn-based game. In a turn-based game they have all the time in the world to think out every single action and don't have to constantly hit the spacebar either

They also have all the time in the world to think when the game is paused. I have seen MANY requests on here, Something Awful and RPGCodex for heaps of auto-pause triggers - and Party AI scripts to reduce the amount of inputs required in a short amount of time by the player. You and I may enjoy micromanagement, but not everyone does. In turn-based these people have to manage every unit's move, but in RTwP they can be heavily automated.

 

 

I am not discrediting turn-based combat, I have not said that turn-based games are crap. You seem to want to believe this though for some reason, it's like you think I am an extremely evil RTwP fan who absolutely hates the turn-based "master race". lol

 

I only stated that the sluggish and inept just might have a problem with RTwP, that is why they bitch and whine that it is so bad........... And here we are.

I don't see any turn-based fans in this thread complaining about PE with RTwP, only RTwP fans complaining about turn-based combat. I don't get how you think I am part of the turn-based master race - I like RTwP, I am not saying one is better than the other - you are saying RTwP is better than turn-based and takes more skill. I disagree. I think that it is easier to do a good turn-based system than a RTwP one.

 

What's wrong with it? It's fairly easy to access, elegant, fast paced, yet tactical with meaningful choices... what's not to like it for a computer game based squad TB combat?

It's a garbage game compared to the old XCOMs - and the number one reason why I posted that picture

 

 

Though Dark Souls is a good console game, but it's an action game.

 

I wouldn't bother posting about it any further. I hate console games. I hate what they have done to gaming.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Sensuki

[Tamerlane]

**** it, make PoE full-on real time only, no pausing.

 

Practice your reaver drops and sair micro or get the **** out, casuals.

[JFSOCC]

 

It's something that Firaxis grasped well with their XCOM and TB combat

 

That's about all I have to say to that comment.

 

I think you're mixing opinion with fact. You don't like TB, and that's fine, but having played the Xcom-enemy unknown, I thought it was very enjoyable, tense and tactical. That's my opinion.

I'm fine with RTwP though. I get to have my cake and eat it with T:ToN and PoE.

[Tamerlane]

Um. Sensuki likes turn-based games? Just not the new Xcom.

[JFSOCC]

Right, I must have missed that. I'm wondering how much of that is nostalgia though. While the current Xcom can certainly be improved upon, I think it's probably better balanced and has better difficulty progression than the original. (although late game is too easy)

[PrimeJunta]

 

@Darkpriest, which party-based high-fantasy cRPG does turn-based combat better than ToEE, in your opinion?

 

The problem is, I do not like any TB combat I tried in high fantasy so far. Best TB combat in a cRPG is for me by far Fallout. Simple, yet still requiring tactical placement. I would say that Age of Decadence has a decent TB combat as well, although it's not a party based game Arcanum TB was abysmally bad for me. ToEE while capturing the rules well, it just felt too tedious for a computer game.

 

 

Huh. I thought Fallout's combat was pretty much a disaster in every possible way. Threshold effects turning it into insta-kill (either you, or the enemy), late-game was "aim for the eyes", companion AI getting each other or you caught in volleys or grenade effects or running into idiotic spots, enemy AI basically consisting of zerg rushing you, etc etc. 

 

AoD isn't horrible for what it is, but IMO turn-based is actually a pretty poor fit for a single-character game. It's pretty easy to manage just one character so you don't really need the extra control turns give. On balance I prefer RT systems for single-character games, regardless of perspective, and TB for multi-character ones.

 

:moment of silence for Arcanum:

 

As to ToEE, again, I didn't find the combat system tedious at all. Some of the encounters were, for sure, but that's a problem with encounter design, not the system. I think the main problem with it is for people who aren't familiar with D&D; that system is overwhelmingly complex if you're dropped into it completely green, and ToEE does not make any attempt to soften the blow, e.g. by introducing the mechanics through some kind of tutorial thing. Also with D&D you have to know what you're doing when character- and party-building or you'll turn out squibs. We already know PoE won't have either of these problems. 

 

So yeah, I do still think TB would've been a better fit. We'll see though; I like what JES has been saying about it, like the slow-motion mode, AI, and passive abilities, so it might actually play really well.

[bussinrounds]

Didn't know about slow motion mode in PoE.    This will help make the RtwP combat somewhat more bearable for me (as a TB guy) When the game unpaused in the IE games and the action carried out, I couldn't tell wtf was going on, everything was so chaotic.  Plus I would have to scroll back in the battle log just to see what just happened exactly, instead of being able to take in everything as it happens , like you can in TB combat.

Edited December 19, 2013 by bussinrounds

[Abel]

 

 

It's something that Firaxis grasped well with their XCOM and TB combat

 

That's about all I have to say to that comment.

 

I think you're mixing opinion with fact. You don't like TB, and that's fine, but having played the Xcom-enemy unknown, I thought it was very enjoyable, tense and tactical. That's my opinion.

I'm fine with RTwP though. I get to have my cake and eat it with T:ToN and PoE.

 

 

 

I'm ok with this. I felt this remake was great, even if not perfect. Many options were lacking to make the game longer/ more difficult. But it was beautiful, and the most important, TB was quite well designed. There was more strategy and less "luck" because of the area design itself. I enjoyed it, but the game is too short compared to the original and the options available when you finished the game should have been there since the start. Some mechanics are simplified and "under control"  though, bad point. And the idea that twice a month you have ALWAYS 2 aliens raids at the same time was boring. Too scripted and artificial in some ways, and though, unrealistic in many others.

 

About TB vs RTwP, i like the 2. Maybe better the RTwP, but it's a matter of game design. Some games are better with TB, others with RTwP. I'm glad Eternity is RTwP because most strategy games are TB, and it's a refreshing variation on the theme.

 

PS: Does someone know where i could find mods to make the Fireaxis XCOM more in the first XCOM flavour? Didn't find anything interesting on the nexus :s Thx.

PS2: maybe someone pointed this already, but i think Inxile's Torment is now TB.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Abel

[Helm]

 

Yes, this is quite obvious. I asked because I want to hear your theory.

Seems to me that you are somehow trying to prove that turn-based combat is fundamentally more challenging. That is not the case. RTwP however requires more skill

It is you who is trying to prove that RTwP takes more skill than turn-based - not the other way around.

I'd still like to hear your theory about RTwP fans though, no need to dodge my question. I've been waiting for a week or so for you to answer.

 

I believe you want to say that RTwP fans are stupid morons and therefore play all games on easy. That is what you wanted to write, is it not?

 

 

RTwP however requires more skill RTwP require more skill

No it doesn't lol. You've consistently ignored anything to do with pause and ignored the statement about the weight of individual actions in turn-based combat. If you're going to go for a Real-time versus turn-based argument - try saying that (this is a bad comparison) Air Hockey requires more skill than chess - not going to happen.

 

Real-time PC games are not Air Hockey and Turn-based games are not chess, but the point still stands.

Your air hockey (RTwP) vs. chess (turn-based) comparison really is pretty retarded. It seems to me that you are suggesting that turn-based combat is vastly superior because it is more profound and more in depth, and therefore requires more savvy and understanding, than RTwP combat. Quite a laughable statement to make, especially on a forum about a RTwP game. Why don't you just straight out say that RTwP is crap and that Obsidian are all complete morons for choosing RTwP over TB for Pillars of Eternity.

 

Anyway, you consistently ignore every fact that I have written. The stakes of individual actions are also very high in RTwP games and constantly pausing does not change this, your entire party can wipe if you make even one mistake. I even gave you good examples.

 

RTwP however requires more skill (better said, some additional skills) that not everbody has. RTwP requires all of the tactics and strategy of a turn-based game and also requires the player to issue all actions in parallel (and not serially like in a turn-based game). In a turn-based game you never have to worry about constantly needing to be aware of every current and potential hostile action at any given moment and react accordingly. This is why the sluggish and inept love turn-based and hate RTwP combat so much. The APM (actions per minute) are much, much higher in a RTwP game than in a turn-based game. This is why some people feel overwhelmed by the RTwP combat system and are tired of constantly over-abusing the space bar, which in actuallity is nothing more than a feeble attempt to try and cope with the faster paced combat, because they suffer from a sluggish cognitive tempo.

 

Turn based is essentially a rather simple sytem, RTwP is much more complicated. People who are not sluggish and inept really enjoy the faster paced and very deep combat of a RTwP game, the slow pokes under us simply hate RTwP because it overwhelms them.

 

 

[...]more intellectual diarrhea

I don't feel like repeating myself 10 times in one post. The Above is an answer for the rest of your post. Edited December 31, 2013 by Helm

[Lephys]

We all tip our hats to the folk who play RTwP and don't pause very much at all, and still handle all the threats and situations. They possess increased reactive skills. Or rather, they're employing that skill (as people who play turn-based games could still have awesome reflexes and speedy critical thinking, but just happen to not be employing it at the time.)

 

However, that hardly means that in a turn-based game, you have to worry about fewer factors simply because those factors aren't encroaching on you every waking moment.

 

In a turn-based game you never have to worry about constantly needing to be aware of every current and potential hostile action at any given moment and react accordingly.

Yeah, and in a RTwP game, you never have to lock-in your decision, and be completely inable to alter or change it until you suffer all the consequences of an enemy's reaction to it. You get to go *right-click on Orc* "Attack that Orc, Warrior!" one half-second, then the next half-second decide "Oh crap, that other Orc just knocked the Mage on his arse! Nevermind, Warrior, go help the Mage instead!", after he's only taken 1 step towards his initial target.

 

So, yeah... greater quantity of reaction-prompting factors at once, AND greater reactive freedom/capability in RTwP. Fewer reaction-prompting factors at once, AND far less reactive freedom/capability in TB.

 

I'm not going to say it requires more skill, and I think it's honestly a bit silly to even compare the two in a competitive fashion (as if they're the same thing, and one's just faster while the other is slower), but it's a fact that, in turn-based, every decision you make is committing to quantifiably more consequences and reactions before you can make a different decision or react yourself.

[teknoman2]

a RTwP game, gives you a limited number of choices per character that you need to manage at the same time. the turn based can go for unlimited numbers, because you dont need to worry about the action of other characters when you do something with one

to make an example. in IWD2 you can cast fire storm with the priest and acid storm with the wizard, however you need to manage the movement of the fighter so he does not end up walking in the rain (and he will if you have his autoattack on). on the other hand, in a TB game you can cast these spells and do much more stuff that would be risky in a RT game, because you dont worry about a party member doing something without you telling him

in short there is no really better system, they are different and each has it's good points and it's problems

[Sensuki]

Oh dear Helm. This is absolutely hilarious. Why are you so angry that I disagree that RTwP is superior ?

I think they are both good and both require different skills to beat on harder difficulties (some overlapping). It is not me refusing to listen to you at all, it is actually quite the opposite.

You claim that people who prefer turn-based cannot micromanage their characters very well. I have not said that this is an untrue statement - what I have said is that RTwP (emphasis on the wP) offers a lot of concessions to these people so that the number of required actions per minute is less.

You have ignored absolutely everything I have said about the PAUSE feature of Real Time with Pause and AI Scripts for unselected party members. If you are going to make any arguments about micromanagement you really need to talk about Real time combat (not often featured in RPGs), not Real time with Pause.

 

 

 

I believe you want to say that RTwP fans are stupid morons and therefore play all games on easy. That is what you wanted to write, is it not?

 

I will let others be the judge of that, as I'm pretty sure it's only you that thinks that.

 

 

 

It seems to me that you are suggesting that turn-based combat is vastly superior because it is more profound and more in depth, and therefore requires more savvy and understanding, than RTwP combat. Quite a laughable statement to make, especially on a forum about a RTwP game. Why don't you just straight out say that RTwP is crap and that Obsidian are all complete morons for choosing RTwP over TB for Pillars of Eternity.

 

Wrong. Let me quote myself

 

 

 

Turn-based places higher stakes on individual choices. Once you've made a move in turn based, you cannot correct it, you cannot take it back. In RTWP if you make a tactical error you can correct it by pausing the game and re-issuing a different command. Individual actions in turn-based when difficult are very important, and you can only make a certain amount of wrong moves or you have to reload/you've lost. Realtime combat has a greater demand on the moment to moment decisions of the player and in some cases their reactivity. Pause trivializes this to some extent (depending on how far you abuse it).

 

Is that an untrue statement ?

 

 

 

Turn-based on easy is generally pretty bad because unless you are terrible, it offers little challenge and it does take longer than RTwP to resolve combat.

 

I have said that turn-based combat, when easy - is ****. Easy RTwP wins vs Easy TB IMO. And that is why I think many people like RTwP. If you play on easy or normal difficulty - RTwP is probably going to be your preference because then combat can be pretty brainless, and you can just click a few buttons, sit back and watch the AI/auto attack of your character(s) win the encounter.

 

 

 

There is a difference. If you realize that you made a mistake in turn-based after you have issued a command, there is no way to undo your move. In real-time IF you realize that you made a mistake you can revert your actions.

 

I have said that you cannot undo your actions in TB Combat whereas you can in RTwP with an efficacy loss of time.

 

 

 

you can react to 'currently happening' actions, such as if a Mage in BG2 begins casting a deadly spell with a long cast time, you can interrupt that cast with an Archer, and try and cause spell failure.

 

You can't react to current actions in TB combat - which reinforces my statement that TB places higher stakes on individual actions.

 

Essentially Real-time with pause combat only requires a lot of inputs per minute if the game and difficult demands it and the player does not make much use of the pause function OR the party AI available to them in many games such as Baldur's Gate 2. 

 

The way you and I might play RTwP (not using auto pause, not pausing very often and not using party AI scripts) might be very different from the way another person plays their RTwP (full auto pause clauses, takes lots of time between pauses to make sure they've issued optimal actions their characters and/or sets AI scripts to characters that they do not want to control to reduce the amount of micromanagement required).

 

 

 

I'd still like to hear your theory about RTwP fans though, no need to dodge my question. I've been waiting for a week or so for you to answer.

 

I'm not sure if you read my post correctly - perhaps you were unfounded by the first paragraph. The theory is in fact in the last post I made on the 17th of December.

 

 

 

I think that there would be a statistical relation to the people who like turn-based games with preference for harder difficulties, and a statistical relation to preference for RTwP games and easier difficulties. Note the key word - statistical relation, as you state down the bottom you prefer hard as well, so that doesn't include you. But from the posts on here, the kickstarter comment, smudboy's stupid youtube arguments a lot of the people who hate turn-based are 'storyfags' who don't care about combat.

 

 

 

intellectual diarrhea

 

Hahah, I feel sorry for you if that is going over your head.

[Adhin]

I'm happy with PoE direction for sure and prefer it over straight turn based. That said as long as the turn based isl ike Temple of Elemental Evil/XCOM: Enemy Unknown/within then im pretty happy with it. The second a 'turn based RPG" removes control over how I develop a character 'and' forces my party to stand in a line against an enemy line while taking turns is about where I draw the line. Can not stress how much I dislike line turn based stuff.

 

Least with ToEE/XCOM you have a full map and positioning is important. ToEE was great for that, had almost the full 3.5E rules in place for stuff. Had rushes, full defensive turns, you could split up your attacks vs multiple enemies. Made turn based worth it, and was never about just tapping the same button to quickly zip through a boring menu to 'attack'... guh.

[Karsius]

I feel that with rtwp and a party this size you pause issue commands wait for execution pause again. Might as well be turn based. This basically leads me to just passive play.

 

But what I am most excited about is what obsidian said about being able to slow the combat speed which would allow me to key bind everything and with click targets I should not have to pause ever.

 

Can't wait for that dance across a key board gonna be way more a complex rotation of skills than any mmo or game I've played ever. That's what I am most excited about.

 

I wrote this on my phone in between seating a at work so don't hate on punctuation and grammar.

 

While it's true that RTwP can be just as tedious as TB in some cases (not burning TB, I love it in some games), a nice option to make RTwP a bit more dynamic would be to allow the player to adjust spell/ability/target priorities with each npc party member.  If you already have a general idea of how your party will react to say, a group of thieves and a spellcaster, then it allows for less paused gameplay and a bit more focus on the real time aspect.  I don't know, maybe this has already been said, I haven't browsed through the forum much yet.