Random loot or fixed drops from certain mobs?

[kgambit]

As Josh has stated, there's going to be a mix of mostly hand placed items with random items thrown into the mix. The loot system is designed to change loot and random (or non random) drops across the entire game quickly.

 

This works fine for me.   

[jamoecw]

 

As usual, I disagree with Valorian.

 

I would love it if the big baddie didn't have a fixed specicial items, but it could be one of 3 or so. Then each game you can even find new unique special items you never found before in the old game. And if your entire build is focused around finding that Long Sword +5 on that Dragon, well, you're in bad luck if it drops another +5 item instead. Less number-calculating and pre-determining item finds, more flying where the flow brings you and dealing with the punches.

Coming in with a goldilocks and the three bears here (too hot, too cold), I think it probably should at least be restricted to a particular type of item, to support the narrative (when it matters). If some troll bandit lord is notorious in the area (in the story), and he's so successful and feared because of some iconic, fearsome weapon he carries with a specific name, I think he should probably always drop a weapon with that name with similar properties (the same general theme, at least), rather than one time he drops some loincloth or something instead of a weapon ("but hey... at least it's still a +5 item! 8D!"). But, yeah, I don't think it's necessary at all to restrict anything to ONLY the same exact item every time.

 

For what it's worth...

 

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

 

so if you have random weapons from boss like enemies you should have the ability to trade in the weapon for an equivalent weapon of similar type (so that you aren't screwed over), or maybe each of those ten are guaranteed to have a different weapon, so that you may not have your favored weapon right away, but you will get it at some point.

 

it is kinda like in the IE games when you picked a weapon that doesn't have a more powerful form, and as such you are gimping yourself by specializing in it, only that what that weapon is is random, which is bad (though no weapon should be gimped just because anyway).

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, from what I hear re-specs are in. Personally not a fan of them, but they would prevent the player from being able to get 'stuck' like that. Also; vendors (money has a worth? OMG!). And of course what Lephys says is correct too.

That all 10 random +2 drops would become greatswords would be highly improbable to boot.

But I figured that would go without saying...

[Lephys]

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

True enough. I was simply considering the probability that there are other means of acquiring equipment of at least a certain caliber, besides bossy-type foes. So, the bossy-type foes don't need to be restricted to specific loot simply to eliminate the possibility that your access to a greatsword beyond "Rusty Greatsword of Meh-ness" isn't determined solely by chance.

 

To look at it another way, if 5 different bosses dropped fixed loot, but only one dropped a greatsword, and you happened to only specialize in greatswords, would you suddenly have absolutely no reason to tackle the other 4? Or, even if the loot was fixed and not random in nature, how would you even know what they dropped until you fought against them? Or, once you found out, would it be unacceptable that all of them didn't drop greatswords? OR, what if none of them dropped greatswords, but you could get some awesome legendary greatsword through other means?

 

That's what I was getting at. The world isn't shattered if each playthrough has Grogg the Ogre's renowned weapon potentially being a different weapon. That's all I'm saying. Not "Oh, we could just randomize everything in the game." Also, Hassat is right, in that, if you have.. say... 50 named weapon drops in the game, and they WERE all randomized, the odds of NONE of them being one of a handful of different weapons would be pretty ludicrous odds, for what that's worth.

[motorizer]

 

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

 

 

 

That's what playtesting is for.

[jamoecw]

Well, from what I hear re-specs are in. Personally not a fan of them, but they would prevent the player from being able to get 'stuck' like that. Also; vendors (money has a worth? OMG!). And of course what Lephys says is correct too.

That all 10 random +2 drops would become greatswords would be highly improbable to boot.

But I figured that would go without saying...

well if you can respec, then i guess it really doesn't matter what they drop, you'll just respec to use the most powerful drop you have, not a good solution, but a solution nonetheless.  as for money, isn't that a method of exchange?  the less efficient it is the worse off the character is, assuming money doesn't lose its value due to getting so much.  and the scenario was what if all 10 drops of greater than +2 were not greatswords, which is far more likely than all 10 +2 drops being a single weapon (doesn't matter which one, does it?).

 

 

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

True enough. I was simply considering the probability that there are other means of acquiring equipment of at least a certain caliber, besides bossy-type foes. So, the bossy-type foes don't need to be restricted to specific loot simply to eliminate the possibility that your access to a greatsword beyond "Rusty Greatsword of Meh-ness" isn't determined solely by chance.

 

To look at it another way, if 5 different bosses dropped fixed loot, but only one dropped a greatsword, and you happened to only specialize in greatswords, would you suddenly have absolutely no reason to tackle the other 4? Or, even if the loot was fixed and not random in nature, how would you even know what they dropped until you fought against them? Or, once you found out, would it be unacceptable that all of them didn't drop greatswords? OR, what if none of them dropped greatswords, but you could get some awesome legendary greatsword through other means?

 

That's what I was getting at. The world isn't shattered if each playthrough has Grogg the Ogre's renowned weapon potentially being a different weapon. That's all I'm saying. Not "Oh, we could just randomize everything in the game." Also, Hassat is right, in that, if you have.. say... 50 named weapon drops in the game, and they WERE all randomized, the odds of NONE of them being one of a handful of different weapons would be pretty ludicrous odds, for what that's worth.

 

the two solutions you proposed is:

1. that not all drops are random, though some is (either loot drops or non loot drops)

2. increase the number of good drops to decrease the odds of auto fail.

 

1. this really isn't any different than if bosses dropped fixed loot, and sub bosses dropped random good loot like was said should happen earlier, is it?

2. doesn't eliminate the issue, just hides it better.

 

 

 

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

 

 

 

That's what playtesting is for.

 

name one game that is dependant on RNG rolls that the dev didn't realize that something creative should be done to ensure you didn't auto fail a playthrough every so often?  keep in mind one person not failing doesn't mean anything.  if the odds of auto fail is .1% and the game sells 100,000 units in its lifetime, and each unit has an average of 5 playthroughs, then 500 playthroughs will auto fail (most games sell more than 100,000 units BtW).

 

 

 

i am not saying that there shouldn't be a random element to drops, i am just saying that you should be smart about it, and not do the whole 'if you auto fail, just start a new game and hope it doesn't happen twice' sort of mentality, which should be a thing of the past given how easy it is to avoid such issues without making it so that you know where to go to get what.

[Lephys]

the two solutions you proposed is:

1. that not all drops are random, though some is (either loot drops or non loot drops)

2. increase the number of good drops to decrease the odds of auto fail.

 

1. this really isn't any different than if bosses dropped fixed loot, and sub bosses dropped random good loot like was said should happen earlier, is it?

2. doesn't eliminate the issue, just hides it better.

No no no. I wasn't proposing those as solutions. I was only making points with those.

 

I mean, yes, what I was getting at involves not all drops being random, but that's already the tentative system for P:E, as set forth by the devs. The only -- only thing I was initially trying to say was that you really don't HAVE to make unique enemies drop completely static unique loot, and that it might be interesting (most notably in multiple playthroughs) if the "unique" weapons and such varied a bit. Instead of in EVERY single playthrough, you just say "Oh yeah, that ogre lord guy has an axe, but I already know what it is, and I already know its exact stats, even though it's a 'you're-only-like-a-third-of-the-way-through-the-game'-tier weapon."

 

In other words, I love the idea that some bandit leader or notorious troll or something might have some iconic, signature weapon as opposed to random lackey-grade foes, because he calls some shots and has been doing this for a while. But, unless he's one of THE top challenges in the entire game, or one of THE most notorious beings in all the land, I really don't NEED his item to be uniquely legendary or anything. Some really specific, lore-heavy, time-intensive quest(chain)? Yeah, that should probably always produce a static, unique item. That's an item that's fixed in the world lore. But, some goblin lord who happens to have been running a cave of goblins for the past few years? He doesn't need to be wielding the legendary Goblin Blade, that was forged by goblin angels 1,000 years ago and was lost for centuries. It doesn't need to be THAT specific of a weapon.

 

So, yes, that being said, I realize you specifically just distinguished between boss-types and sub-boss types. I realize that, and there's nothing wrong with that. To add to my clarification, though, I wasn't meaning to make such a specific distinction at the time. I was basically talking about both of those types together, in a single group, making up the "anything that isn't 'random creature with no name.'"

 

So, that's all I was saying. Some unique enemies should carry SPECIFIC unique items only (the most substantial, lore-tethered ones), and some unique enemies should carry something more special than a random enemy carries, but not necessarily a SPECIFIC more-special thing.

 

Heck, you could even use seeds generated when the player clicks "New Game" to determine which unique things carry what. It's the same dice roll, just done at a different time. That way, if there are 20 semi-spiffy equipment pieces (for example), and 20 sub-boss type foes, you can still have variety in your playthroughs without chancically getting 10 axes, 7 daggers, 3 halberds and no swords at all out of any of those sub-bosses.

 

The "randomness" isn't true randomness, and can be tweaked, and I think it'd be interesting to explore when and where we could apply such tweaked randomness where many games would simply stick with static things.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I think the original Diablo did this (if not the subsequent Diablo games); the first "boss" you fought (or maybe he was a miniboss, technically?) was The Butcher. On the 3rd floor, I think? Or 5th? I can't remember. Anywho... when you killed him, you always got "The Butcher's Cleaver" or whatever it was called (it was a cleaver, and it was his... you get the idea), but I'm pretty sure the stats were slightly randomized. And sure, I'm talking about weapon types, but it doesn't HAVE to be weapon types. But, then, it just as easily could. The weapon COULD have the same name, and be an axe, or a unique sword. AND different stats, for that matter. Just a sprinkle of dynamics.

 

I just think dynamics often get neglected before they're even explored. "SURELY that would rain destruction down upon our game's design! *ignore*"

[motorizer]

 

 

 

 

the problem with this would be if you only get good weapons from loot and that in the second half of the game there are say 10 enemies that might drop above +2 weapons that you are proficient in, and one of the final encounters requires a +4 weapon or higher.  now for the first half of the game you have been getting pretty much only greatswords, so you specialized in them and was really good with them.  all 10 of those that may drop the better weapons failed to drop greatswords, and as a result you have to fight the battle that needs a +4 or better with a weapon you can't use very well, which of course makes it harder, using up more resources than normal, and since you run around with roughly the same combat ability from early levels as you do at higher levels, the second half of the game drains more resources than the early levels when they don't expect you to need them as much.  so then the game goes from super easy, to super hard, all due to dice rolls.

 

 

 

That's what playtesting is for.

 

name one game that is dependant on RNG rolls that the dev didn't realize that something creative should be done to ensure you didn't auto fail a playthrough every so often?  keep in mind one person not failing doesn't mean anything.  if the odds of auto fail is .1% and the game sells 100,000 units in its lifetime, and each unit has an average of 5 playthroughs, then 500 playthroughs will auto fail (most games sell more than 100,000 units BtW).

 

 

 

 

 

No, you name one game where you had to go back to the start because a random item didn't drop.

 

 

 

there should be no encounter in the game that is reliant on having a certain weapon which is a possible random drop, whether you get the item or not shouldn't really matter...sometime I fell like people are just trying to make up problems.

[Hassat Hunter]

well if you can respec, then i guess it really doesn't matter what they drop, you'll just respec to use the most powerful drop you have, not a good solution, but a solution nonetheless.  as for money, isn't that a method of exchange?  the less efficient it is the worse off the character is, assuming money doesn't lose its value due to getting so much.  and the scenario was what if all 10 drops of greater than +2 were not greatswords, which is far more likely than all 10 +2 drops being a single weapon (doesn't matter which one, does it?).

I assume, like other games with re-spec, there will be a cost to it. So changing your whole build just for the last drop you got would be highly costly, and thus improbable.

It would still be a cop-out in the highly unlikely scenario you need a broadsword, and all items are somehow to +5 while the only broadsword is +1.

 

Dunno what you really talk about with the money. I've talked a great deal about the economy is some other threads, too detailed for it to be of use in this specific discussion, but I think if vendor's actually sell useful items, a variety, and thus money actually has a worth, that would be a good thing.

Some people say vendors should wield good items, and all good loot should be drops. But in doing so, money becomes worhtless, only used for additional moneysinks you then have to invent just for it to have a use.

So if you think the RNG really hates you, and you really need that broadswoard +5, and it doesn't drop, the vendor is there for you, provided you have excessive amounts of money to shell for it. Money you should think of, isn't it better used elsewhere?

The only -- only thing I was initially trying to say was that you really don't HAVE to make unique enemies drop completely static unique loot, and that it might be interesting (most notably in multiple playthroughs) if the "unique" weapons and such varied a bit. Instead of in EVERY single playthrough, you just say "Oh yeah, that ogre lord guy has an axe, but I already know what it is, and I already know its exact stats, even though it's a 'you're-only-like-a-third-of-the-way-through-the-game'-tier weapon."

My point exactly. It would add some extra developer time, sure. But I personally think it would be of a significant added value to the game.

Do note this does not mean a FULLY random loot system like KOTOR2, but rather a system where enemies posses an intern randomness system. Good for unique foes to add variety to the game, but also, as stated before, for an common enemy type, like, say, the "Black Dragon Bandit Clan", so they can have different armors and weaponry, without a developer needing to manually set them up for it.

So while it needs more dev-time, it also helps reducing it at other points.

And I think we can all agree we wouldn't mind clone enemies to become part of the past (besides maybe Dopplegangers ).

The "randomness" isn't true randomness, and can be tweaked, and I think it'd be interesting to explore when and where we could apply such tweaked randomness where many games would simply stick with static things.

I definitely agree here. True randomness in loot (like action RPG's) rarily leeds to a very good system for more hard-core RPG's.

But the game will be made to be replayed, for people Obsidian knows will replay it over and over. And then the system like BG1/2 or KOTOR1 where you know in advance all items can become stale.

Having just this tiny bit of randomness would add freshness to those replays, or even first plays.

[Valorian]

If talking quality, randomly generated encounters can't compete with detailedly designed encounters.

 

It's ok to slightly randomize (good) loot in chests, it's ok to make enemies drop different types of mundane trinkets, but don't randomize equipped items. There's a number of issues attached to it, such as the fact that randomess doesn't care about the recipient's talents or class. It could make encounters repetitive and boring. Even visually.

 

Make some enemies wander around in wilderness areas instead of randomizing them. This adds to the unpredictability factor for those who will replay the game. But still, keep in mind that most players don't replay games and hand-crafted encounters maximize the experience.

 

And leave randomization for filler generic enemies when traveling on the world map from area to area.

 

 

As usual, I disagree with Valorian.

And if your entire build is focused around finding that Long Sword +5 on that Dragon, well, you're in bad luck if it drops another +5 item instead.

 

Unless you think dragons fight with swords in Project Eternity, your example kind of missed the point, as usual.

[Lephys]

 

As usual, I disagree with Valorian.

 

And if your entire build is focused around finding that Long Sword +5 on that Dragon, well, you're in bad luck if it drops another +5 item instead.

 

Unless you think dragons fight with swords in Project Eternity, your example kind of missed the point, as usual.

 

I'm pretty sure the actual point he was making had nothing to do with whether or not dragons should drop swords. And the fact that they sometimes do in existing games makes it all the more valid of an example, with the point still having nothing to do with the "should"ness of dragons dropping swords.

 

Mentally replace the word "dragon" with "guy who was wielding a +5 sword," if you must, and watch how the point remains the same.

 

(For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with you that dragons should neither wield swords nor magically produce swords via the act of death).

Edited October 25, 2013 by Lephys

[Hassat Hunter]

There's a BG dragon with a +5 sword... I was refering to it... and many people building themselves or a teammate around that particular sword. A good example for what having a well-known fixed drop can do, and what randomness to it might add.

So yes, it works as example, since it's not even theoretical at all...

 

As for random items will upset balance of enemies, I don't know about P:E, but in most games (Obsidian ones included) there are 'proficiency: all' settings for foes just for that. No point adding a specific sword skill, and +2 attack in sword powers to a foe, when you can simply add 'can use all weapons, gets +2 attack' to it. Which allows also the use of ALL weapons. So wheter random generated, or a developer just changes opinion on what weapon to use, the boost is always in effect.

Of course, I wont suggest making archers randomly get a sword, but wheter they get a bow or crossbow should techniqually have very little influence on them, just the difference between bow and crossbow, not that the enemy suddenly gets -5 penalties cause 'it's not their item'...

Edited October 25, 2013 by Hassat Hunter

[Sabotin]

I don't think that building around an item is really a concern, that just happens on subsequent playthroughs. I mean it's up to the player to decide how they want to play it, isn't it?

 

If they want to prevent that anyway, I'd rather they just take more care when placing loot and consider the usability of the item through the game from the point of acquisition.

Carsomyr wasn't that powerful just because of all the pluses it had, but you could also get it fairly early and it was the best against everything up to and including the end of the saga. I mean even if it was a sling you'd still stick it on your paladin. I think there's even some use-any-item classes that built around it?

 

It also really bugs me when a non-random enemy in a game has entirely random loot. It creates a kind of disconnect, when everything is the same as if it's my first time playing - except the stuff that drops. The game is half acknowledging it's a game and half trying to keep up appearances. Might as well have randomized dialogue results and abilities...

 

Now for the mooks that might be a bit different, since they're usually just padding (or I don't care about them). it looks bad when they're all clones and worse when it happens that their animations sync. If they make them randomly equipped I think it'd be interesting to make some kind of weighed system that takes into account role, job, culture, etc. For example, army enemies would have standard issue gear for their unit, being different only in sizes. A town militia would be less restrictive, with stuff just preferred rather than mandatory. A group of prates would have whatever is on hand, but maybe restricted to stuff suitable for close quarters? Etc...

In PE the gear type would seem to have a more important role, so that would have to be kept in mind as well. Using a mace instead of a sword isn't just cosmetics. I would like to see if the small encounters would have some structure, too, not just be a sampler dish every time just because it's random, since that would defeat the purpose.

 

And I forgot to mention mod support. That could be a thing. I believe there is some random loot mod for BG even.

[Valorian]

 

 

As usual, I disagree with Valorian.

 

And if your entire build is focused around finding that Long Sword +5 on that Dragon, well, you're in bad luck if it drops another +5 item instead.

 

Unless you think dragons fight with swords in Project Eternity, your example kind of missed the point, as usual.

 

I'm pretty sure the actual point he was making had nothing to do with whether or not dragons should drop swords. And the fact that they sometimes do in existing games makes it all the more valid of an example, with the point still having nothing to do with the "should"ness of dragons dropping swords.

 

Mentally replace the word "dragon" with "guy who was wielding a +5 sword," if you must, and watch how the point remains the same.

 

(For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with you that dragons should neither wield swords nor magically produce swords via the act of death).

 

 

And you happily jumped on the missed-the-point bandwagon too.

I believe I made myself clear that I don't care if the drop is randomized as long as it's not something equipped by the enemy.

 

Making his highlight example a dragon that drops a +5 weapon is precisely an example of the bonus (randomized) drop being detached from the foe's weapons. And I was not objecting to this, especially if it's not something you find on the dragon's body, but in its hoard.

[Valorian]

In PE the gear type would seem to have a more important role, so that would have to be kept in mind as well. Using a mace instead of a sword isn't just cosmetics. I would like to see if the small encounters would have some structure, too, not just be a sampler dish every time just because it's random, since that would defeat the purpose.

 

 

Indeed. The random crowd doesn't understand this.

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't see the problem.

Instead of a random thugs group being always the same, you know need to variate based on their randomly generated weaponry. Hence, more challenge, more replayability, more strategic thinking required than if you know all bandit x wear itemtype y.

 

As I said, I only see pro's to that.

[Valorian]

I don't see the problem.

Instead of a random thugs group being always the same, you know need to variate based on their randomly generated weaponry. Hence, more challenge, more replayability, more strategic thinking required than if you know all bandit x wear itemtype y.

 

As I said, I only see pro's to that.

 

Nope, you still don't seem to be aware that it actually reduces challenge because randomness will rarely random a well balanced enemy group. Randomness doesn't care about the synergy between specific weapons/armor types and classes/talents/abilities/attributes.

 

A random thug having a mace instead of a sword doesn't add anything special to replay value.

[forgottenlor]

I agree with Valorian. Which items a bandit drops really only matters if its an item that someone in your party is going to equip. Otherwise it goes in the backpack or get's sold. That means most normal bandits will have equipment that only gets sold. So what the bandit leader has is probably going to be the only thing of importance, and it would mean that Obsidian would have to design a lot of different types of bandit leaders if they are going to give them different items. I think random magic items are best kept to chests and the like.

[Sabotin]

I don't see the problem.

Instead of a random thugs group being always the same, you know need to variate based on their randomly generated weaponry. Hence, more challenge, more replayability, more strategic thinking required than if you know all bandit x wear itemtype y.

 

As I said, I only see pro's to that.

 

Perhaps we have a different view of things. Let me try to illustrate my concern (extremely simplified): With hand placed enemies you have let's say one encounter with 10 swordsmen, one with 10 pikemen and one with 10 archers. With random you'd have 3 encounters with 3-4 of each. The second method is I think at higher risk of becoming predictable and tedious.

 

I've been thinking some more and I believe more could be done with the tools already at hand - weapon switching and consumables, to add some spice to encounters while keeping their structure. Enemies should have similar thinking as the party, going in with a strategy, but adapting their tactics to the situation. So a good AI wouldn't hurt either.

[Hassat Hunter]

@ forgotten; Not really, you just wont get all. Would it harm if you go long sword +1, not find 2 or 3 in loot, and only +4. Probably not, since you got a team, and alternative ways to get that +2 or +3 some other way. It was never my intention that all items ACTUALLY drop, if so, there's no point randomnising drops between a few various alternatives.

 

@ Valorian/Sabotin;

Imagine a random encounter, between travelling, having to fight 10 bandits. It's intended to get this event a few times.

Now with your system they need to manually set up like 5 different variations, or risk all 5 of these to be equal. Even without replaying, that can be stale. With some randomness to opponents, all 5 of those, even in one playthrough, require to let the player act on the equipment of the opponents rather than the fifth time knowing it all very well. There you go, developers only need to make 1 setup, not 5 different ones, and they can use that dev-time setting up other encounters.

Another would be you get a boss-fight with a bandit leader. You need to play differently if he spawns with a mace and heavy armor than if he does with sword and medium armor. Do tell me how that not adds replayability, or rapid strategical thinking of the player? Just re-using the same strategy might not help next time, only due to a slight randomnisation. I would say that would be pretty awesome, and a good way to make players have to play more stragetical and pay attention for a minor amount of developerstime, compared to the alternatives.

 

Also, somehow you guys (from Sabotin's example) seem to think swordsmen end up with bows. That's obviously NOT going to happen. If you setup 10 ranged opponents, the randomness would not stuff them with swords, but rather slings, or (short/long)bows, or crossbows. A pikemen wont get a sword either, but randomly go between pike, pole, lance or similar weapon. Melee would go sword, axe, hammer. As thus, the example as stated would simply be false.

[forgottenlor]

@ forgotten; Not really, you just wont get all. Would it harm if you go long sword +1, not find 2 or 3 in loot, and only +4. Probably not, since you got a team, and alternative ways to get that +2 or +3 some other way. It was never my intention that all items ACTUALLY drop, if so, there's no point randomnising drops between a few various alternatives.

 

@ Valorian/Sabotin;

Imagine a random encounter, between travelling, having to fight 10 bandits. It's intended to get this event a few times.

Now with your system they need to manually set up like 5 different variations, or risk all 5 of these to be equal. Even without replaying, that can be stale. With some randomness to opponents, all 5 of those, even in one playthrough, require to let the player act on the equipment of the opponents rather than the fifth time knowing it all very well. There you go, developers only need to make 1 setup, not 5 different ones, and they can use that dev-time setting up other encounters.

Another would be you get a boss-fight with a bandit leader. You need to play differently if he spawns with a mace and heavy armor than if he does with sword and medium armor. Do tell me how that not adds replayability, or rapid strategical thinking of the player? Just re-using the same strategy might not help next time, only due to a slight randomnisation. I would say that would be pretty awesome, and a good way to make players have to play more stragetical and pay attention for a minor amount of developerstime, compared to the alternatives.

 

Also, somehow you guys (from Sabotin's example) seem to think swordsmen end up with bows. That's obviously NOT going to happen. If you setup 10 ranged opponents, the randomness would not stuff them with swords, but rather slings, or (short/long)bows, or crossbows. A pikemen wont get a sword either, but randomly go between pike, pole, lance or similar weapon. Melee would go sword, axe, hammer. As thus, the example as stated would simply be false.

 

I'm wondering if the boss fight with the leader (say 3 random melee bosses each with a magic weapon and armor, for example) is worth the extra work. I admit it wouldn't be negative per say, but resourses may be spent better elsewhere. As far as normal bandits go (who will probably not have equipment worth equipping on a character), does the randomness destroy immersion to some degree? Wouldn't most bandits have say crossbows in some regions, and say long bows in another, depending on what is popular in those game locations? Also would the difference between a speer and a pike make enough of a difference in a battle, that the random effect would add enough replayability that you would notice and care?

[Qiox]

Well this question sure started a lively discussion!

 

The only issue for me is where do you find the best in slot item of each time.  Using BG2 as an example, when I replay that game, I know where to get the best helm, the best ring, the best 2-hander, the best boots..etc.. for my build.  And I don't like that so much.  I would prefer to have to take out various boss mobs until I find which one has the best longsword this time around.  Lesser, leveling gear I also would prefer to have randomized, although having some of it fixed so that someone wanting to make a bastard sword user won't end up going too long before finding any bastard sword.

 

But for boss mobs, I really don't like knowing where to go to get all my best-in-slot gear.  Even something as simple has taking a group of 3 different bosses in one region of the game and having 3 nice designed items that gets randomized among them so that you know one them will have that helm you want, but you won't know which one has it on this play through.

[Valorian]

@ Valorian/Sabotin;

Imagine a random encounter, between travelling, having to fight 10 bandits. It's intended to get this event a few times.

 

 

I am not talking about random encounters when traveling between areas on the world map, of course. 

[Hassat Hunter]

Just pointing out another of the positive sides.

Also, just randomnising does save a developer from manually outfitting the entire map. Just give them their loot roster, there we go. They could make more encounters just by having to spend less time on most of them.

[Karkarov]

Random loot and items is fine.  Algorithms and code design have come a long way.... I don't doubt there is a way to program unity to distribute basic gear to a type X mob randomly and then have skills assigned based on the gear that was chosen.  Or even to have 10-15 Mob X created and then have unity deploy a random selection of those 10-15 different types with their level tuned to the areas challenge.

 

As long as it is done in such a way that you don't end up randomly fighting 5 fighters who all have been given weapons they aren't proficient with and mage robes for armor random mobs and loot work just fine.  I trust Obsidian is capable of using the Unity engine to create such a random system.  As has already been stated the major encounters and important loot will be hand placed.