Kerry's Israeli/Palestinian peace talks

[Walsingham]

 

 

And about Sweden... I cant find Sweden on maps even in XII century. How they can invited Swede in 862 AD if in this time nor Sweden, nor Sweden people yet not exist?

 

 

 

By the way Oby, far be it from me to question your deductive/reading skills, but there are letters making up words on that map, and they say "Svear", "Götar" and "Gotland (Land of the Gutar)". Just for the hell of it, I typed it into wikipedia to see if the english version would recognize it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tar

 

Svear and Swedes are names for the same thing... And it clearly points out sources mentioning Svear/Swedes from way before 800AD.

 

Just thought I'd drop that in your lap and see where you run with it.

 

 

You mean oby's not a high ranking history professor?

[Azdeus]

 

You mean oby's not a high ranking history professor?

 

 

Hahaha! Yeah, who would've thunk it?! ^^

 

Just would've hoped he could've actually put some effort into it, since in Swedish "Svear" is the old word for "Svensk(Swedish)". Any person calling himself king from the Svear tribe, is per definition a Swedish king. Swedes are'nt called Goths/"Götar" since that tribe got their arses kicked, by Svear. From Svealand.

 

Little bit of a case of "What it says on the tin" here.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Wasn't there something there about one of Napoleon's generals getting a field promotion to king there?

Bernadotte. Not one of the better marshalls and he actively hated Napoleon despite, iirc, being his brother in law.

 

Napoleon had said "I've made him a king but couldn't make him a general."

[obyknven]

Hahaha! Yeah, who would've thunk it?! ^^

 

Just would've hoped he could've actually put some effort into it, since in Swedish "Svear" is the old word for "Svensk(Swedish)". Any person calling himself king from the Svear tribe, is per definition a Swedish king. Swedes are'nt called Goths/"Götar" since that tribe got their arses kicked, by Svear. From Svealand.

 

Little bit of a case of "What it says on the tin" here.

 

Swedes yet try invent fantasy ancestors for yourself.   

Firstly they imagine yourselfs as Goths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothicismus

book's:

Kurt Johannesson; Gotisk renässans: Johannes och Olaus Magnus som politiker och historiker. Publisher: Stockholm, Almqvist & Wiksell international, 1982

Nordström J. Götisk historieromantik och stormaktstidens anda

Lindroth S. Svensk lärdom****oria. Stockholm, 1975.Bd. I: Medeltiden. Reformationstiden. S. 160-172, 288-309; Bd. II: Stormaktstiden. S. 235-348

Stenroth I. Myten om goterna: Från antiken till romantiken. Stockholm, 2002

 

When this attempt fail they try become "Svear's"   .

 

P.S.Just for lulz - "king from the Svear tribe" can't be because tribe is not kingdom.

[Walsingham]

It's like arguing with tinkerbell.

[Azdeus]

It's kind of amusing, he misses the point, and the moon, and he's headed of towards the twinkling stars!

[obyknven]

It's funny, but some forum members think i say bull**** about History of Sweden. These guys are victims of brainwashing by patriotic education system in their countries.
Just short info.
 
Vendel era - on territory of modern Sweden suddenly appeared totally alien to this place highly advanced culture. They create  state,  use cavalry and very technologically advanced. Their  Ship burial unusual for this place, but common in Eastern Europe and can be finded here from ancient times. Probably they are Suetidi of Gothic historian Jordanes. This ethnonym have non Germanic origin (but can be easily translated from Slavic languages). As result historians IRL don't known who they are - Sarmatians, Alans, Proto-slavs or some yet unknown people (paleo-Europeans?). After end of Vendel era they dissapeared without any tracks - they are not ancestors of Swedes.
 
Viking era - territory of Sweden mostly inhabit by primitive tribes (no horseriding, low level of technology, totally different traditions in comparision with Vendel era). In some places exist few towns with civilisation, but again their culture quite alien for Sweden, it's some sort of colonies. Huge amount of Slavic artifacts and ceramics (80 % in Birka) can be found here, also Slavic fibulas and Slavic dress (considered by Nationalistic Swedish historians as "Swedish") and  common for Baltic Slavs Ship burials.
 
After end of Viking era during wars against Danes, plagues and Crusades against Baltic Slavs migration to East happened and slavic presence dissapeared from Sweden, also suddenly dissapeared fibulas and Slavic "Swedish" national dress. Obvious these slavic "Viking" colonies are not Swedish ancestors.
 
In Later time these deserted territories has ben included into Kalmar union and settled mostly by migrants from Germany. These Germans (and local Finno-Ugric tribes also) are true ancestors of modern Swedes, they create national state and take name to nation. Sweden is German word. And they considered yourself as German Goth-descendants, not as Svear Tribe and not as Vikings. This Viking faggotry begin only in XIX century, when attempt of fap to Goth's make fail.
 

p.s. Vikings is not ethnicity, it's just common word in Baltic region for naming of pirates, but Swedes continue imagine yourself as ethnic Vikings.

 

Meanwhile real modern successors of Vikings looks like these guys.

[Azdeus]

Really Oby, you should get your aim straightened out. We're not Vendels or whatevs, we're actually Atlanteans.

[Walsingham]

Those are some hi-vis pirates!

[Rostere]

Ugh. I've really had a lot to do lately (and no time to reply to anything), but I'm really feeling the urge to straighten this mess of a thread out.

 

Especially irritating is that obyknven does not seem to understand the etymology behind "Sverige"/"Sweden" - "Svenskar"/"Swedes" are etymologically identical to "Svear", "Suiones" and so on. The map with "Svear", "Götar" and "Gutar" reflects cultural divides that exist to this day, all within the confines of one nation. None of these groups has ever "disappeared". "Svear" has meant "Swedes" is Swedish since the dawn of written history (note however that additional groups such as the Götar are included among today's Swedes - previously, Sweden was simply known as "the kingdom of the Svear and Götar" so it's just a simplification).

 

I also don't understand why obyknven talks about Gothicism and then lists books by modern Swedish authors who give a negative historical account of the theory? Gothicism was a 19th-century pseudoscientific phenomenon and has had about 0 adherents outside the fringe-right since about 1910.

 

Finno-Ugric tribes were certainly not the forefathers of most of Swedes today, but certainly to the (native) population roughly somewhere above the yellow area in the map above, which is called "Norrland" and roughly corresponds to the Swedish part of Lapland. Today, the Finno-Ugric Y-DNA haplogroups are represented in Finland and in the Baltic countries, also being the largest Y-DNA group in some parts of Russia, corresponding to those parts where these peoples lived before the migrations of the people carrying the Y-DNA R haplogroups from today's Ukraine. This is a map of where you can find the Finno-Ugric genetic heritage today (Y-DNA haplogroup N).

 

The "Svear" and "Götar" were certainly Indo-European tribes, who settled in Sweden during the invasions/migration which spread the R1a and R1b Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe. It's also well established that these made migrations/conquests southward, which in Gothicism is erroneously identified with pretty much everything from the fall of the Roman Empire to the establishment of all Germanic peoples, while in reality the relatives of the Svear and Götar were already living from the Black Sea to the Netherlands.

 

The largest part of Swedish genetic heritage however comes from the proto-Europeans who lived in Sweden before the migration of the proto-Gothic/proto-Germanic tribes in about 1000-2000 BC who came to name the country (map of entire Europe found here and here).

 

Meanwhile, Sweden is known in Finnish as "Ruotsi" and called similar names in the Baltic languages. The etymology of this comes from (Old) Swedish, where the prefix "roths"/"rods" (lacking better typography) meant "related to rowing". We know that two Varangian (Varyags in Slavic languages) guards in Byzantinian employment in 839, when inquired about their ethnicity, replied that they were "Rhos", more specifically Rhos of Swedish origin. Read more here and here. The prefix is still present in the names of many places on the east coast of Sweden. "Rhos" was possibly simply what the "vikings" who travelled eastward called themselves. The fact that there are runestones in Sweden telling about the deeds of Swedish Varangians in the east, and that the earliest known East Slavic historic record speaks of Swedish Varangians subduing the Finnic and Slavic populace in 859 (at the height of the Viking period, at exactly the same time the English started to pay "Danegeld") should speak for itself. So the "Rus" in "Russia" is really originally from what the Swedish seafarers from around today's coastal Uppland called themselves. Note that "Varangian" just like "Viking" is a profession, and not an ethnic group.

 

Also, I have no idea about where obyknven gets the notion of Swedish education portraying vikings in that light. Since I have actually went through Swedish education I can say he couldn't be further from the truth.

[Maedhros]

 

Wasn't there something there about one of Napoleon's generals getting a field promotion to king there?

Bernadotte. Not one of the better marshalls and he actively hated Napoleon despite, iirc, being his brother in law. In a vaguely on topic observation it was one of his descendants who the Stern Gang (or was it the Irgun/ Haganah?) murdered just prior to the partition of Palestine when he was trying to mediate for the UN.

 

Should have gone for one of:

Davout- as best marshall

MacDonald- could establish a chain of restaurants equivalent to Ikea in ubiquitousness, also possibility of forming United Kingdom of Sweden and Scotland in a year or so time to compensate for losing Norway's North Sea petrodollars. Plus Etienne MacDonald is a very cool name.

Poniatowski, despite being a mere general- epically trolling P/Russia and Austria and as a sort of reverse Gustav Adolphus, plus lots of free cores on Poland and Lithuania.

 

 

Bernadotte was probably more suited to be king than most of the other marshalls. In many ways he was similar to Napoleon, with that "larger than life" quality that made him such a good leader of men. Skill in the field doesn't necessarily mean you're suited to be king though. Someone as cold and stern as Davout isn't king-material for example. In general, the french marshalls under Napoleon were mostly all pretty badass, here is one example:

 

http://www.infobarrel.com/The_Silver_Tongued_Frenchman_Marshal_Lannes_Stunning_Capture_of_Tabor_Bridge

 

[Zoraptor]

Bernadotte was certainly Napoleon's best kingly appointment (not much competition though, even if Joseph's problems were largely not his fault), and Sweden seems to have done pretty well out of the deal in the end. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest Davout for the role.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile, Sweden is known in Finnish as "Ruotsi" and called similar names in the Baltic languages. The etymology of this comes from (Old) Swedish, where the prefix "roths"/"rods" (lacking better typography) meant "related to rowing". We know that two Varangian (Varyags in Slavic languages) guards in Byzantinian employment in 839, when inquired about their ethnicity, replied that they were "Rhos", more specifically Rhos of Swedish origin. Read more here and here. The prefix is still present in the names of many places on the east coast of Sweden. "Rhos" was possibly simply what the "vikings" who travelled eastward called themselves. The fact that there are runestones in Sweden telling about the deeds of Swedish Varangians in the east, and that the earliest known East Slavic historic record speaks of Swedish Varangians subduing the Finnic and Slavic populace in 859 (at the height of the Viking period, at exactly the same time the English started to pay "Danegeld") should speak for itself. So the "Rus" in "Russia" is really originally from what the Swedish seafarers from around today's coastal Uppland called themselves. Note that "Varangian" just like "Viking" is a profession, and not an ethnic group.

 

"Ruotsi"

Dude, these wet Normanistic fantasies rejected by historians long ago.

 

It's too long to read, but there proofs, this is serious scienice:

https://eportfolio.pace.edu/artefact/file/download.php?file=38870&view=33724

 

Also this map represent Scandinavian geografical knowledge about Kievan Rus.

Do you understand? There is Jotunheim, Rim of the world, White spot on the Map, Here be a Dragons, they known nothing about this land.  But by Normanistic theries this is just can't be, but this is reality.

Also historic calculation's of Rus people populace in this period take ~ 1 000 000 in Eastern Europe in X century, meanwhile populace in Sweden reach ~ 500 000 only in XIV century. But by wet Normanistic theories  it's deserted Scandinavia produce crowded migration waves one per another during Migration Period and Dark ages.

 

 

 

I also don't understand why obyknven talks about Gothicism and then lists books by modern Swedish authors who give a negative historical account of the theory? Gothicism was a 19th-century pseudoscientific phenomenon and has had about 0 adherents outside the fringe-right since about 1910.

As you see above your education system from many possible interpritattions choice most nationalistic ( and most not trustworded). In other words this is same **** as Gothicism few centuries ago.

 

Also just as example, how real historical knowledge can be different from popular historical myths:

Danes and Norwegians at least partially have non-Germanic Celtic origin (for historian this is obvious, Celtic influence in Scandinavian cultures during Vendel era is wery strong, but as usual common people known nothing about this).

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

As result Danes and Norwegians have different origin from Swedes, and not bro for them.

[Azdeus]

Ohhh, I sense the butthurt is strong with this one, yeeees...

[Gorth]

Nothing like waking up in the middle of the night, having a wet theory

[obyknven]

 These posts even not about history, but about baby duck syndrome.

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/BabyDuckSyndrome

You try protect rejected yet in XIX century theories only because brainwashing by patriotic education system in your childhood.

It's just funny to watch how you can be manipulated so easily.

[Walsingham]

 These posts even not about history, but about baby duck syndrome.

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/BabyDuckSyndrome

You try protect rejected yet in XIX century theories only because brainwashing by patriotic education system in your childhood.

It's just funny to watch how you can be manipulated so easily.

 

 

I can see how a psychopath would find that amusing, certainly.

[Gorgon]

Resist the urge Walsh. 

[Walsingham]

Resist the urge Walsh. 

 

Hey, everyone has to have a hobby!

[obyknven]

Return to theme of thread.

 

Israel and Saudi Arabia prepare war against Iran togheter.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Middle_East/article1341561.ece

 

Firstly aviation of IDF support Jihadist's in Syria against secular government. Then Israel and "Islamists" from  Saudi Arabia make alliance for war against yet indpendent Islamic Iran republics. It's lol, all these Jihadists around the world sacrifice own lifes... for glory of Israel. Jihadist = Israel supporter.

[Rostere]

 

"Ruotsi"

Dude, these wet Normanistic fantasies rejected by historians long ago.

 

It's too long to read, but there proofs, this is serious scienice:

https://eportfolio.pace.edu/artefact/file/download.php?file=38870&view=33724

 

Also this map represent Scandinavian geografical knowledge about Kievan Rus.

Do you understand? There is Jotunheim, Rim of the world, White spot on the Map, Here be a Dragons, they known nothing about this land.  But by Normanistic theries this is just can't be, but this is reality.

Also historic calculation's of Rus people populace in this period take ~ 1 000 000 in Eastern Europe in X century, meanwhile populace in Sweden reach ~ 500 000 only in XIV century. But by wet Normanistic theories  it's deserted Scandinavia produce crowded migration waves one per another during Migration Period and Dark ages.

 

I'd like to inquire as to the exact dating and origin of this map. If it dates to the 9th century or the 11th century would make all the difference in the world, considering that was the time when this region of the world was first mapped. Second, with all the superstition during the era I would not put too much meaning into finding "Jötunheimr" on the map.

 

Göticism does indeed allege massive migration waves, but I have asserted nothing of the kind. The Scandinavian peoples at the time managed to terrorize and at times control people from vastly more populated regions, such as the British Isles, the coast of France, et.c. so I would have no doubts they could do the same in Eastern Europe. Second, the area where they had some degree of control, "Gardariki" by no means accounts for all of Eastern Europe.

 

When all the old sagas and runestones mention Scandinavian rulers in Gardariki with Scandinavian names, raids on the different populations of the East and so on, I find it must be extremely difficult to believe that Scandinavians never lived in that area (if that's what you're trying to say?).

 

Let's split this up into several statements so that we can ascertain what exactly it is that you do not agree with:

• The "Rhos"/"Ros" were a group of people from Sweden who are the source of the Finnish and Estonian name for Sweden (These were obviously also the Scandinavians which had the most contact with Finnic peoples living to the east of Sweden).
• 9th century historical accounts of "Rhos" themselves describing where they come from tell that they are of Swedish origin
• 10th century Persian accounts tell of the Rhos raiding the Slavic population
• In Byzantine sources, "Rhosian" and Slavic are two different languages, and from the few words we know of "Rhosian", it looks much like a Northern Germanic language
• Sweden is littered with runestones giving accounts of Swedes getting rich from trade and raiding in the east
• People in Scandinavian sagas and historical accounts frequently move to live with relatives in Gardariki when they are threatened at home
• The rulers of cities in Gardariki are mentioned with typical Scandinavian names in Scandinavian accounts (in contrast to foreigners)
• The first written Slavic historical accounts mentions both that the "Rus" are Varangians, that they have exacted tribute from Slavic peoples, and that they have been at one point invited to rule (which is really not more strange than the Swedes inviting Bernadotte to be king much later on)

Now of course all old accounts might not be 100% true because old historical accounts are often exaggerations, simplifications and generalizations, but all of these really point in one direction. If they were all false and invented, it would amount to the largest and most intricate historical fraud ever known.

 

 

As you see above your education system from many possible interpritattions choice most nationalistic ( and most not trustworded). In other words this is same **** as Gothicism few centuries ago.

 

Also just as example, how real historical knowledge can be different from popular historical myths:

Danes and Norwegians at least partially have non-Germanic Celtic origin (for historian this is obvious, Celtic influence in Scandinavian cultures during Vendel era is wery strong, but as usual common people known nothing about this).

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

As result Danes and Norwegians have different origin from Swedes, and not bro for them.

 

From irrefutable evidence we know that:

• The Norwegian, Danish and Swedish languages are very closely related
• Norwegians, Swedes and Danes are closely related genetically (even though there are some differences - see my posts above)
• Barring the Finno-Ugric peoples, beside the communities which spoke Northern Germanic languages, no other ethnic groups lived in Scandinavia about the year 1000

Did a Celtic people live in Denmark before the "viking" era? That's certainly very much possible, but they have not left any traces in today's language or Y-DNA. Really, I don't think that's a very controversial theory, but other than potential cultural influences they can't have left much trace.

[obyknven]

Moar of Pseudoscientific theory from XVIII century.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CWgbmgIzoT8

[Gorth]

Give it up Rostere, an open mind is sometimes required for people to move out of their comfort zone (interesting information though)

[Walsingham]

Can an artificial construct - an alt - even have a mind?

 

You might as well be debating with my halfling AD&D character.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Walsingham

[Rostere]

Latest news: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/11/16/israel-blocks-witness-in-us-anti-terrorism-case/3613927/

 

The US (more specifically, American victims of terror) wonders how the heck terrorists get so much money through the Bank of China without any assets getting seized. An Israeli security official (who had been in talks with the Chinese) was called to testify, but was not allowed by Israeli leadership, because quote: "The disclosure of [his] information would harm Israel's national security, compromise Israel's ability to protect those within its borders, and interfere with international cooperative efforts to prevent terrorism.".

 

Meanwhile the resultless struggle among the victims to strike at the financing of the terrorists vainly goes on...

Edited November 20, 2013 by Rostere