Kerry's Israeli/Palestinian peace talks

[Walsingham]

Scratch my last. I've been chatting to melkathi off-forum. He's made me rethink. Need time to brew though.

 

EDIT:

 

Two points

 

1) Big grievances do not affect the terrorist organisation directly, but they can have a serious impact through removing or reinforcing public support. Case in point is the Weather Underground Organisation. They mobilised during the anti_vietnam period in the USA. When the USA left the war a vast amount of support evaporated, because of the end of the draft and the whole subculture that draft dodging generated.

 

The Palestinian cause probably does provide much pan-arabian credibility. It also gives cover from many 'useful fools' in Europe.

 

2) Good or bad causes that indulge in terrorism or direct action, attract arseholes. once embedded they tend to take over. Case in point, from the wikipedia page on the Animal Liberation Front. [my emphasis]

 

This glamorization of the movement attracted a new breed of activist, Stallwood writes. They were younger, often unemployed, and more interested in anarchism than in animal liberation per se. Stallwood writes that they saw ALF activism as part of their opposition to the state, rather than as an end-in-itself, and did not want to adhere to non-violence.[35] In the early 1980s, the BUAV, an anti-vivisection group founded by Frances Power Cobbe in 1898, was among the ALF's supporters. Stallwood writes that it donated part of its office space rent-free to the ALF Supporters Group, and gave ALF actions uncritical support in its newspaper, The Liberator. In 1982, a group of ALF activists, including Roger Yates, now a sociology lecturer at University College, Dublin, and Dave McColl, a director of Sea Shepherd, became members of the BUAV's executive committee, and used their position to radicalize the organization.[38] Stallwood writes that the new executive believed all political action to be a waste of time, and wanted the BUAV to devote its resources exclusively to direct action. Whereas the earliest activists had been committed to rescuing animals, and destroyed property only where it contributed to the former, by the mid-1980s, Stallwood believed the ALF had lost its ethical foundation, and had become an opportunity "for misfits and misanthropes to seek personal revenge for some perceived social injustice." He writes: "Where was the intelligent debate about tactics and strategies that went beyond the mindless rhetoric and emotional elitism pervading much of the self-produced direct action literature? In short, what had happened to the animals' interests?" In 1984, the BUAV board reluctantly voted to expel the ALF SG from its premises and withdraw its political support, after which, Stallwood writes, the ALF became increasingly isolated.

 

Edited August 15, 2013 by Walsingham

[Walsingham]

Or to use the inestimable G.K. Chesterton, from The Man Who Was Thursday. Again, my emphasis.

 

"Naturally, therefore, these people talk about 'a happy time coming'; 'the paradise of the future'; 'mankind freed from the bondage of vice and the bondage of virtue,' and so on...

 

They have but two objects, to destroy first humanity and then themselves. That is why they throw bombs instead of firing pistols. The innocent rank and file are disappointed because the bomb has not killed the king; but the high-priesthood are happy because it has killed somebody."

 

[Zoraptor]

To the extent you mean US rockets, they're used with the agreement of the states you mentioned, and target their own enemies, and US doesn't fire them indiscriminately hoping to hit something. Not sure what you mean by Lebanon, Syria, and Sudan.

Iraq and Afghanistan made those agreements while under US military occupation, not of their own free will.

 

Lebanon, Syria and Sudan have all been bombed by Israel in the past few years without retaliation. Lebanon in particular had Israel running around the south- having their tanks getting comically blown up in a 'safe' area in front of the world's media, even, and flattening suburbs in south Beirut- and the Lebanese state did literally nothing about it.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If you insist on precision, I guess I could've added a few caveats to my statement, but it should be apparent that each of the situations you described is quite different from Hamas lobbing rockets at Israel. In the case of Syria for example, what was hit was a shipment of advanced missiles destined for Hezbollah, and they do retaliate by supporting terrorists, when they can't do it openly. In any case, none of these countries are held back by self-restraint, which is what you seem to be demanding from Israel, which was my original point.

[Rostere]

 

@Rostere, Al Qaeda started partly due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and partly due to US presence in Saudi Arabia to defend it and Kuwait from Iraq, nothing to do with Israel. In fact AQ is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is much older than Israel.

 

 

I know the history of Al-Qaeda perfectly well. Of course their initial formation would still have happened, but after the resolution of the war in Afghanistan they would have played out their role. Do you even know why Osama attacked the US in the first place? Because the US supports the Israeli Zionists and also because they have military bases in Saudi Arabia (yes, apparently that was a reason). AQ has EVERYTHING to do with Israel/Palestine, just look at 9/11, which was largely a byproduct of the Israel/Palestine situation. (Nowadays I sincerely think they get more recruits from the PR they must have gained from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan)

 

Let me give you a similar example: the CPUSA. Today I don't think many Americans think of them as a threat. But even as late as the seventies I think many did (they certainly did during the sixties). Why is that? Because they were supported by the Soviet Union, which had an extreme and unwanted ideology... And the SU had the political system it had because of the extreme class differences in Europe during the late 1800s, a problem which would seem distant enough for the US just like Israel/Palestine, eh? Yet in the end we got the Cold War.

 

It's ALWAYS in the interest of EVERYONE EVERYWHERE to prevent atrocities and injustices, because these create room for extremists, which everyone will have to deal with in the end. They don't just pop out of thin air. Almost every kind of "terrorist" fights because of real injustices, but they have been completely swayed by violent ideologies.

[NOK222]

 

 

• Why is it so important to the US to support the Zionists?

Deep rooted end of days Protestant Bull****. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

@Rostere, Al Qaeda started partly due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and partly due to US presence in Saudi Arabia to defend it and Kuwait from Iraq, nothing to do with Israel. In fact AQ is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is much older than Israel.

 

I know the history of Al-Qaeda perfectly well. Of course their initial formation would still have happened, but after the resolution of the war in Afghanistan they would have played out their role. Do you even know why Osama attacked the US in the first place? Because the US supports the Israeli Zionists and also because they have military bases in Saudi Arabia (yes, apparently that was a reason). AQ has EVERYTHING to do with Israel/Palestine, just look at 9/11, which was largely a byproduct of the Israel/Palestine situation. (Nowadays I sincerely think they get more recruits from the PR they must have gained from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan)

 

 

They say it's because of Israel to gain more popular support amongst Arabs and other Muslims, but Jihad is a lot older than modern Israel, and their goal is to carry out global Jihad to establish a global caliphate, to overthrow current Arab regimes and replace them with revolutionary Islamist ones. US used to be an obstacle to those goals, so we got attacked on 9/11. Al Qaeda isn't fighting Assad because he's not anti-Israeli enough, they're fighting him because he's not Sunni and allied with Shiites in Iran.

[BruceVC]

 

 

@Rostere, Al Qaeda started partly due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and partly due to US presence in Saudi Arabia to defend it and Kuwait from Iraq, nothing to do with Israel. In fact AQ is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is much older than Israel.

 

I know the history of Al-Qaeda perfectly well. Of course their initial formation would still have happened, but after the resolution of the war in Afghanistan they would have played out their role. Do you even know why Osama attacked the US in the first place? Because the US supports the Israeli Zionists and also because they have military bases in Saudi Arabia (yes, apparently that was a reason). AQ has EVERYTHING to do with Israel/Palestine, just look at 9/11, which was largely a byproduct of the Israel/Palestine situation. (Nowadays I sincerely think they get more recruits from the PR they must have gained from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan)

 

 

They say it's because of Israel to gain more popular support amongst Arabs and other Muslims, but Jihad is a lot older than modern Israel, and their goal is to carry out global Jihad to establish a global caliphate, to overthrow current Arab regimes and replace them with revolutionary Islamist ones. US used to be an obstacle to those goals, so we got attacked on 9/11. Al Qaeda isn't fighting Assad because he's not anti-Israeli enough, they're fighting him because he's not Sunni and allied with Shiites in Iran.

 

 

I was going to comment on the reasons for the formation on AQ, I thought you misunderstood why they were formed Ros but I see you know the reasons. I also wanted to add that during the first Gulf War when Iraq invaded Kuwait Bin Laden wanted the likes of Saudi Arabia to use the newly formed Islamic fighters to address this invasion. But when they asked the West to assist he considered this an insult to Muslims and adding to this  the fact that there were military bases in Saudi he felt that  the cause of greater Islamic hegemony was being betrayed. He declared many governments in the Middle East as apostate and AQ began there campaign of  violence to achieve political change

 

I also don't think support for the Palestinians is as unified  amongst the Middle East as people think. The Sunni controlled countries like Qatar, UAE and Saudi are more concerned with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in there countries and the power of Shia countries like Syria and Iran than the plight of the Palestinians. Also many of the extremist groups have objectives in there manifestos outside of the rights of the Palestinians. So even though Islamists do care about the Palestinians its not the only or the most important thing.

[Walsingham]

I know the history of Al-Qaeda perfectly well. Of course their initial formation would still have happened, but after the resolution of the war in Afghanistan they would have played out their role. Do you even know why Osama attacked the US in the first place? Because the US supports the Israeli Zionists and also because they have military bases in Saudi Arabia (yes, apparently that was a reason). AQ has EVERYTHING to do with Israel/Palestine, just look at 9/11, which was largely a byproduct of the Israel/Palestine situation. (Nowadays I sincerely think they get more recruits from the PR they must have gained from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan)

 

 I have to say that your example perfectly illustrates MY point that the terrs work with what they've got handy. Osama bin Laden was pissed that he didn't have the opportunity to shoot people any more, so he made up the notion that the USA being in Saudi Arabia to reverse the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait somehow proved they - and the House of Saud - had to be stopped.

 

The USA acted legally, and proprotionately and all the good stuff the UN is supposed to stand for. International coalition etc etc.

 

It didn't make any ****ing difference once it had passed through the propaganda lense of one spoiled rich kid, and into the ears of a bazillion angry young fascists.

[obyknven]

Celebrities from Israel protest's against Russian homophobic laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For comparision how real Semites (Arabs) looks like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cann't find any similarities between them, they are so different. I can't understand how Ashkenazy people who originated from Eastern Europe and looks like pure Europeans can pretend own Palestine land and be Semites. Do they have this rigth only because some old religious fairy tales say that? But what difference between they and Crusaders who conquer Palestine a thousand year ago with battle cry "Deus Volt!".

[Oerwinde]

Celebrities from Israel protest's against Russian homophobic laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For comparision how real Semites (Arabs) looks like this.

 

 

 

 

 

I cann't find any similarities between them, they are so different. I can't understand how Ashkenazy people who originated from Eastern Europe and looks like pure Europeans can pretend own Palestine land and be Semites. Do they have this rigth only because some old religious fairy tales say that? But what difference between they and Crusaders who conquer Palestine a thousand year ago with battle cry "Deus Volt!".

Technically a semite is someone who speaks a semitic language as their mother tongue, of which hebrew is. So while some jews are semitic, not all are.

[Walsingham]

Again, wtf is up with you and jewish 'bloodlines'?

[obyknven]

Again, wtf is up with you and jewish 'bloodlines'?

I just find this a bit funny. Entire nation cosplay mythological Elfes Semites for justification of occupation.

 

 Just example what real Semites think about Israel

 

 think this view is shared by most syrians. one of the things that the Baath party and the government have pushed through the education system and school books is the differentiation between eastern Jews and other Israelis and emphasis that they have all the historical right of being in the arab world. It's a part of the hall strategy Of trying to make the conflict eastern-western and not Muslim-jewish . the same eduacation system concentrates on not dealing with isreal one country at a time. and calls others who did that like Sadat and Alhusayn traitors to the cause. this same ideas are fed constantly to students every year and they have a huge effect on Syrians. Among all the people I know in syria. I know noone who says he would accept peace with isreal without getting arabs back to their home cities. everyone - including me- think that's a minimum. and I don't think anyone can convince us otherwise...

 

we were told at school that eastern jews are about 10-20% of jewish population around the world.I remember my teacher saying that european jews are khazarian or european converts. but there's no details about that in our national education books. If Jews in israel were eastern that would have changed the view toward the situation here significantly ( not only now but historically) . but we mainly see Israelis as european jews that fled from Nazis and discrimination in europe in the 20th century. and I think it's hard to change this view at this point.

I think syrians would definitly choose the palestinian cause above any other benifit . at least during the foreseeable future.

 

 

 

Source:

http://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/1h9yrw/

[Walsingham]

So you're saying that the refugee ships from post-war Europe were full of cosplayers?

 

Classy trolling.

[Oerwinde]

So you're saying that the refugee ships from post-war Europe were full of cosplayers?

 

Classy trolling.

He's saying the Israeli claim to Israel is a fraud because its based on the claim of ancestral habitation, but the majority of the jewish population of Israel is ashkenazi or ashkenazi descent, who are descendents of Khazar or European converts, not the original hebrew inhabitants of judea/ysrael/palestine/whatever.

[Walsingham]

I guess I should be polite and say thank you for explaining, Oerwinde. But every time he starts talking about jews I swear I can hear metal scraping on concrete, as down a long corridor. It's bloody eerie.

[Rostere]

I guess I should be polite and say thank you for explaining, Oerwinde. But every time he starts talking about jews I swear I can hear metal scraping on concrete, as down a long corridor. It's bloody eerie.

 

That entire crazy discussion might feel a little less "out of the blue" if you consider that the issue of a Jewish religious/racial right to the land of Israel/Palestine is what drives most Israeli (Jewish) right-wing parties.

[Walsingham]

Well, a biblical pox on racialists everywhere, then.

[obyknven]

Some forum members think Russians hate Jews. It's wrong. Russians don't hate yourselfs. Russians are Jews. Again wrong. Jews are Russians. It's better. Ashkenazy are Russians. It's more correct (Russians can be not only Ashkenazy descendants of Khazar kaganate (or Rus Kaganate), but also Soviets, Slavs, Germans, Tatars, Scyths or Hyperboreans etc - our masks are numerless ).

 

Text on pic: Khazar kaganate will be revived!

We don't hate Israel also. Even today Russians dominate in Israel when only 13% of Israel populace are Russians. After half of century experts expects full assimilation of Israel by Russian immigrants, Israel just become yet another Russian country - Middle Eastern filial of our Great Khazaria. We can't be racial haters against yourself it's obvious.

 

proofs:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/israels-flourishing-russian-culture/?_r=0

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/02/168457444/on-multiple-fronts-russian-jews-reshape-israel

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/is/summary/v012/12.3ben_rafael.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/17/israel-soviet-immigrants-transform-country

 

In other words Jews is not belong to West more and Western Zionist rhetoric is pointless today, West just don't have rigths to this. Meanwhile Russian critique of Israel is self-critique and such self-critique is main advantage of Jews from Russia upon Western Hebrew histeroids. Because such critic and sarcastic point of view to yourself we can evolutionise  into better people.

 

Obviously such liberation of the Jews from Western chains generate butthurt to West and they try prevent this by transformation Israel into pure facist state (DNA-tests, pure Jewish bloodlines  etc), but even this don't stop reshape of Israel, it's too late.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/russian-speakers-who-want-to-immigrate-could-need-dna-test/

[Walsingham]

Ya got a trollface? Let me see ya trollface.

 

Mimimimimimimi!

 

THAT'S A TROLLFACE!

Edited November 5, 2013 by Walsingham

[obyknven]

You can don't trust me... but everything is changed now.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.ru/2013/11/report-obama-holding-talks-with.html?showComment=1383573437909

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.ru/2013/11/obama-to-pro-israel-leaders-we-dont.html

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/11/obamas-betrayal-of-israel-the-us-is-like-a-lap-dog-to-the-iranian-regime.html

US no more support Israel, Israel is no more  ally for the West. And this is only begin...

[NOK222]

Cultist, you joker you. 

[Walsingham]

I'm confused. How is it Cultist?

[Malcador]

Good...good. The deception is working.

[Walsingham]

Good...good. The deception is working.

 

 

Your 'what you did todays' show you have little enough patience with bull. I doubt you'd waste your time trolling, and if you did it wouldn't be by alt.

 

EDIT: that's a compliment, btw.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Walsingham