Inverting the Durability Scale

[Infinitron]

The problem with durability is that a lot of players don't like the feeling of their weapons becoming worse with use. It gives them a sort of "ticking down doom" feeling that they find disturbing, much like time limits or the Spirit Eater mechanic from MotB.

 

Here's a solution. Let's invert durability:

 

Instead of durability in the sense of weapons that start out functional and become worse, let's invert the scale. Weapons can have a "Sharpened" state that they start out at. It's a damage bonus. When a character uses the weapon enough, the Sharpened bonus is lost.

The game should be designed such that you won't have the Sharpened bonus most of the time. A high Crafting skill, however, would you allow to retain it for a longer time.

You'd need a blacksmith/crafting station to bring back the Sharpened bonus.

 

This would provide all the advantages of a universally useful Crafting skill, but without players feeling like their weapons are devolving into junk all the time.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sacred_Path]

oh lawd

[Sensuki]

That is even worse than item durability IMO. Absolutely not.

 

I am not a fan of the whole "Non-combat skills should have a combat benefit otherwise there is no reason to take them on more than one character / needs to match the usefulness of Stealth" approach

 

I don't think that Weapon maintenance should be linked at all to Crafting, it is completely unnecessary. People who are good with weapons most likely know how to take care of them, not just people with crafting skills.

 

Crafting should just become not a skill, then there wouldn't have to be a silly arbitrary combat-benefit attached to it.

 

I would rather have universal Diablo 2 item durability than Crafting with a combat bonus.

 

It would be easier to make a judgement if we knew more about other skills and the rate at which skill points are gained, but I guess we'll have to wait until that update.

 

If you have to find an excuse for a skill to compete in the skill point economy then it should not compete. Either remove it or split skills into groups or something.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

That is even worse than item durability IMO. Absolutely not.

 

Why?

[JFSOCC]

Loss aversion strikes again. In this case there is no difference in -1 or +1, it's still going to be a change of one for the player.

Psychology and game mechanics is an interesting mix.

[Infinitron]

Loss aversion strikes again. In this case there is no difference in -1 or +1, it's still going to be a change of one for the player.

 

I don't agree. The crucial difference is that in the standard durability model, the weapons are supposed to be at full durability most of the time. That is their standard default mode, that players expect most of the time.

 

The Sharpened bonus, on the other hand, will be an exception, not the rule. Your weapons usually won't be sharpened. Players won't expect to have their weapons sharp all of the time.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sacred_Path]

If weapons would be sharpened less long than they would be normal in the original case, you'll just cause more backtracking.

[JFSOCC]

 

Loss aversion strikes again. In this case there is no difference in -1 or +1, it's still going to be a change of one for the player.

 

I don't agree. The crucial difference is that in the standard durability model, the weapons are supposed to be at full durability most of the time. That is their standard default mode, that players expect most of the time.

 

The Sharpened bonus, on the other hand, will be an exception, not the rule. Your weapons usually won't be sharpened. Players won't expect to have their weapons sharp all of the time.

 

making it incredibly grindy if you want to keep your maximum advantage. How is that better?

[Infinitron]

 

 

Loss aversion strikes again. In this case there is no difference in -1 or +1, it's still going to be a change of one for the player.

 

I don't agree. The crucial difference is that in the standard durability model, the weapons are supposed to be at full durability most of the time. That is their standard default mode, that players expect most of the time.

 

The Sharpened bonus, on the other hand, will be an exception, not the rule. Your weapons usually won't be sharpened. Players won't expect to have their weapons sharp all of the time.

 

making it incredibly grindy if you want to keep your maximum advantage. How is that better?

 

 

You won't want to keep your maximum advantage. You won't be able to. You won't expect to. As I said

 

The game should be designed such that you won't have the Sharpened bonus most of the time.

 

These things are all about managing people's expectations. People don't expect their weapons to be razor sharp all the time. They do expect them to not be broken.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Infinitron

[TrashMan]

Kinda like Drakensangs wheatstones?

It gave the weapon +1 for a the next several strikes

Edited July 4, 2013 by TrashMan

[Nonek]

Though I don't dislike the original crafting and durability mechanic personally i'd go further Infinitron, make that sharpened state achievable at blacksmiths and at campfires/rest points for the crafting skilled individual, so that we can achieve an optimal state before bearding the "big bad" of our current destination.

 

Perhaps whetstones and repair kits may be purchased, in the hands of the unskilled they maintain items at a normal level of preparedness, but in the hands of a crafting wise character they can achieve the superior states you speak of. So before venturing into the last level of say Deathtrap Dungeon our crafter is busy at the fire patching, repairing armour and honing the groups weapons. So that they are at optimal efficiency, his own of course not needing so much attention as his skill mitigates their degeneration as in the original mechanic.

 

Of course there must be a downside for this, so have a dull/blunt state if one wishes to not invest in crafting or repair kits and whetstones, that may be achieved if combat is regularly indulged in between trips to the blacksmiths.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Durability of 00 = Dull/blunt.

01-80 = Normal performance.

80-100 = Sharpened.

 

Thus you have twenty blows for this weapon when fully sharpened before it degrades to, eighty blows using the normal stated damage of the weapon before, the damage/to hit penalty of the dull/blunt state kicks in.

 

Edit: Have these maintenance items be part of the top of pack mechanic, so that it is a strategic choice of how many to carry over other items perhaps? They would of course be slowly used up or worn away themselves as well.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Nonek

[Infinitron]

Kinda like Drakensangs wheatstones?

It gave the weapon +1 for a the next several strikes

 

Yes. Attaching an item resource to this might be a good idea, by the way.

[Zed]

weapon profiencies, class restrictions, magic buffs = okaydokay

 

on-item buffs/crafting = boooo

[Infinitron]

Looks like somebody on SomethingAwful had the same idea and Josh responded to it: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post417131378

 

I swear I came up with this independently though.

[Cultist]

The system is fundamentally flawed, no point in inverting it. The very idea of making Crafting de facto mandatory for fighters will only drive players to seek alternative solutions, like mods.

[Infinitron]

The system is fundamentally flawed, no point in inverting it. The very idea of making Crafting de facto mandatory for fighters will only drive players to seek alternative solutions, like mods.

Really? Did you feel that it was mandatory to have your swords sharpened with whetstone at all times in the Witcher? Did you walk around with Bull's Strength on at all times in the D&D RPGs? Because I didn't.

[Cultist]

That was common buffs, unrelated to skills. In case of Crafting, you have to waste skills with every fighter. Mandatory Crafting for fighters and rogues is clearlly a bad idea.

[Sensuki]

Whetstone: Item, plentiful and cheap

Bull's Strength: spell, replaceable

Item Durability: part of Crafting skill, skill limited permanent resource

 

Not the same.

[Infinitron]

That was common buffs, unrelated to skills. In case of Crafting, you have to waste skills with every fighter. Mandatory Crafting for fighters and rogues is clearlly a bad idea.

 

I'm telling you it's not mandatory, bro. It's all in your head. It doesn't matter whether it's a skill or a buff. You don't need to do those things all the time.

 

Besides, you don't even know what other skills the game will have yet, so how do you know it's the most useful one?

Edited July 4, 2013 by Infinitron

[Infinitron]

Whetstone: Item, plentiful and cheap

Bull's Strength: spell, replaceable

Item Durability: part of Crafting skill, skill limited permanent resource

 

Not the same.

 

That's not relevant. Did you feel the need to have Bull's Strength on all the time? Yes or no?

 

If not, then why do you think you'll need to have your weapon sharp all the time? What's wrong with letting it run out of sharpness and be non-sharp?

 

For the purposes of this comparison, there's no difference.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

Yes there is.

 

In The Witcher you have one character, you use whetstones on that one character's swords.

 

Bull's Strength can be cast one anyone.

 

Sharpening limited to the character with the crafting skill ? only benefits that character. In your version it actually makes more sense to make it so that the Crafter can sharpen anyone's sword in the party rather than just his own, then it makes it only beneficial for one character in the party to have the skill, not everyone.

It makes no sense to have someone that can sharpen a sword, give it to someone else and then because that person doesn't have the Crafting skill the edge dulls over time - it is EXACTLY the same as item durability.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[Sacred_Path]

That's not relevant. Did you feel the need to have Bull's Strength on all the time? Yes or no?

In areas with high combat density, yes (like the outdoor areas of the Icewind Dale's). P:E will probably be dungeon-heavy so unless spells are a more limited ressource than in IE games, the same applies there. And if buffs are limited things like sharpened weapons become more desirable.

[Infinitron]

Sharpening limited to the character with the crafting skill ? only benefits that character. In your version it actually makes more sense to make it so that the Crafter can sharpen anyone's sword in the party rather than just his own.

 

You haven't answered my question. What's wrong with letting your sword run out of sharpness? Do you feel that you need to run back to the blacksmith and sharpen it every time it runs out of sharpness?

 

If not, then why do you think Crafting is still "mandatory" under this system?

[Infinitron]

 

That's not relevant. Did you feel the need to have Bull's Strength on all the time? Yes or no?

In areas with high combat density, yes (like the outdoor areas of the Icewind Dale's). P:E will probably be dungeon-heavy so unless spells are a more limited ressource than in IE games, the same applies there. And if buffs are limited things like sharpened weapons become more desirable.

 

 

Fair enough. If you think a player is entitled to be perma-buffed, then my idea isn't a solution for you. I don't think most people feel that way though, nor do I think the game will require it.

[Sensuki]

You haven't answered my question. What's wrong with letting your sword run out of sharpness? Do you feel that you need to run back to the blacksmith and sharpen it every time it runs out of sharpness?

 

If not, then why do you think Crafting is still "mandatory" under this system?

Depends on how they balance encounters. In the current system - damaged weapon puts you behind. Logic implies that encounters be balanced against having a sharp weapon which means even though it has a + next to it instead of a - it's not really a buff, so the same applies, otherwise it's a ridiculously overpowered buff.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Sensuki