Fighters in Project Eternity will have stamina regeneration in combat

[IndiraLightfoot]

Pretty disappointing imho.

 

You can claim it doesn't matter because "health" doesn't regen, but stamina regen (especially in combat for Fighters) will have a huge impact on how the game plays. Even in Baldur's Gate 20CON Fighters essentially make fighting trash mobs nothing but boring grinding.

 

It's disappointing on a matter of general principle too. Obsidian (and L.Designer Sawyer) essentially appealed to Kickstarter based entirely on Infinity Engine AD&D, and then when they got the money wasted no time at all (well, mostly Sawyer) making nothing but incessant criticisms of the Infinity Engine games and how they played. Resting is bad, daily spells are bad, cooldowns aren't bad, class-based restrictions are bad, round-based combat is bad, dice-roll randomness is bad in combat, wizards being powerful is bad, everything must be super balanced.

 

So Infinity Engine games were awesome on Kickstarter, but now they suck, apparently, and OE want to make a completely different game. Seems to me like this game will play more like an RTS and less like an AD&D IE game, even though fans were led to believe it would be an IE-like game. I don't think prerendered isometric graphics make it IE-like except from a completely cosmetic angle, the gameplay is shaping up to be nothing like IE gameplay.

 

You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger D&D fan than me, and needless to say, I loved the IE games back in the day. However, I'm also mature enough to admit that playing them now, as I have done for the past six months, is a different experience. Games and game design have evolved. The UI is severely lacking, the pacing is pretty bad and many encounters turn out to be ill-conceived slugfests. Having said that, I still enjoy them immensely. Why? Because the character generation systems and the fantasy stories are so bloody good (for the most part). 

 

I'm sorry if you are truly disappointed in this regard (hopefully, you aren't just trolling us), but let's backtrack and quote some stuff from Obsidian's KS, straight off the pages there:

"Project Eternity is an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world developed by Obsidian Entertainment."

 

"Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing."

 

Alright, so they are making a new fantasy world that pays homage to the great IE games of the past, but nowhere does it say, they'll reuse the mechanics of those games, and especially not down to every little detail.

 

"Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success."

Funny that you mention RTS. I'm playing COH2 right now, I am loving it (while being new to the genre), and this above quote tells me that they are actually going to make combat less swish-swoosh, and more about positions, coordination and timing - well, let's call this tactics and strategy - and I am all for this kind of change. It sounds fresh and exciting, to say the least.  Obsidian also seems to share my excitement in this:

"We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games and we want you to be a part of it as well."

 

It will be different, no doubt, but it will hopefully be darn good too.

Edited July 2, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Chrononaut]

 

Pretty disappointing imho.

 

You can claim it doesn't matter because "health" doesn't regen, but stamina regen (especially in combat for Fighters) will have a huge impact on how the game plays. Even in Baldur's Gate 20CON Fighters essentially make fighting trash mobs nothing but boring grinding.

 

It's disappointing on a matter of general principle too. Obsidian (and L.Designer Sawyer) essentially appealed to Kickstarter based entirely on Infinity Engine AD&D, and then when they got the money wasted no time at all (well, mostly Sawyer) making nothing but incessant criticisms of the Infinity Engine games and how they played. Resting is bad, daily spells are bad, cooldowns aren't bad, class-based restrictions are bad, round-based combat is bad, dice-roll randomness is bad in combat, wizards being powerful is bad, everything must be super balanced.

 

So Infinity Engine games were awesome on Kickstarter, but now they suck, apparently, and OE want to make a completely different game. Seems to me like this game will play more like an RTS and less like an AD&D IE game, even though fans were led to believe it would be an IE-like game. I don't think prerendered isometric graphics make it IE-like except from a completely cosmetic angle, the gameplay is shaping up to be nothing like IE gameplay.

 

You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger D&D fan than me, and needless to say, I loved the IE games back in the day. However, I'm also mature enough to admit that playing them now, as I have done for the past six months, is a different experience. Games and game design have evolved. The UI is severely lacking, the pacing is pretty bad and many encounters turn out to be ill-conceived slugfests. Having said, I still enjoy them immensely. Why? Because the character generation systems and the fantasy stories are so bloody good (for the most part). 

 

I'm sorry if you are truly disappointed in this regard (hopefully, you aren't just trolling us), but let's backtrack and quote some stuff from Obsidian's KS, straight off the pages there:

"Project Eternity is an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world developed by Obsidian Entertainment."

 

"Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing."

 

Alright, so they are making a new fantasy world that pays homage to the great IE games of the past, but nowhere does it say, they'll reuse the mechanics of those games, and especially not down to every little detail.

 

"Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success."

Funny that you mention RTS. I'm playing COH2 right now, I am loving it (while being new to the genre), and this above quote tells me that they are actually going to make combat less swish-swoosh, and more about positions, coordination and timing - well, let's call this tactics and strategy - and I am all for this kind of change. It sounds fresh and exciting, to say the least.  Obsidian also seems to share my excitement in this:

"We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games and we want you to be a part of it as well."

 

It will be different, no doubt, but it will hopefully be darn good too.

 

That's semantics, really. And quoting that stuff given much BG/IWD/PST were namedropped when they needed fans' help... is very disingenuous. It's like saying "Oh wait you didn't read the fine-print".

 

But on the topic of RTS-like tactics, I'll agree on ideas such as positioning. But I think when dealing with an RPG, RTS-like gameplay would be quite boring, tight ranges for damage and saving throws + very little randomness would boil down most fights to puzzles which are determined before the fight even begins. Indeed whether you liked it or not, one of the more memorable things about IE combat were seeing goblins get a lucky attack roll and take out one of your characters, or an enemy missing an attack when you had 1 hitpoint left, allowing you to win the fight.

 

Those kind of situations probably will not exist in this game... simply because missing attacks, even ranged attacks, will not occur (afaik).

 

Again what exactly is "reminiscent" of IE-games? Prerendered overhead graphics? Being able to control a party with classes? That's it? Nothing about AD&D at all?

 

As for the UI, I loved the IE UI systems, how they were molded into the game's lore and looked great. Even worse seeing so many people on this very board wanting minimalist UI's which are more reminiscent of modern action-orientated games.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Chrononaut

[IndiraLightfoot]

I was there through most of the KS campaign, and it was great fun!

 

However, I don't recall any "We are making a new entry in the glorious IE series"-promises on Obsidian's behalf. Still, this is perhaps my bad, because you are certainly not alone on these forums thinking the way you do on this issue. For some reason, there are a great number of people disappointed already and the reasons are precisely as you have described them.

 

I fear that those quotes were not fine-print. It's the very description of the KS - the portal paragraphs.

 

As for that goblin getting a lucky hit, or that enemy rolling a miss when you pc is on death's door, well, I agree with you there. I even had a little debate going on this forum with Josh about misses and the lack of them. I argued just like you - that it's fun in a RPG sense to have it. And a few days passed, IIRC, and Josh had reworked the system, so there will indeed be a few misses, but not nearly as frequent as in IE games. Believe me, Obsidian do listen at times, and they do read these forums, so please contribute by whatever means possible here. Still, I also respect Obsidian for sticking to their guns and doing their thing when they are happy with a design, and not always listening to fans can be a wise strategy as far as making CRPGs is concerned.

[Chrononaut]

Again I think it's a matter of the type of cRPG players they appealed to, who are very much against any new types of mechanics perceived to be inspired to "new" genres. They ran a KS campaign based very much on pure nostalgia, but when it was over didn't take long to start moving away from that, which I find dishonest.

 

For example Bard's Tale (1985) itself was not an AD&D game, but it's ruleset was designed to emulate D&D-like mechanics so that the players would feel familiar with the gameplay from the tabletop game. I don't see how it's an unreasonable request for the gameplay of PE to be reminiscent of D&D IE-games. I don't really care about graphics even if they do look like those games it's still a cosmetic part, I'm just concerned that this PE will end up unrecognizable as the IE games we know and love.

 

Anyway, I won't get off-topic any longer, we won't know anything till it's out. But everything I read about the game's mechanics is very disillusioning.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Right, this is a bit off-topic. Perhaps a mod (Gifted, I saw you!  ) can move the relevant posts and make a new topic under General Discussions called "Are we getting the PE we were led to believe during KS"? 

 

I think that would be an appreciated topic.

 

 To be sure, nostalgia played a big part in people pledging, but to say that they were dishonest seems harsh. Also, all of us that have followed OEI over the years know that they have been longing to make a new CRPG of their own accord for years. Getting a new IP was something often reiterated during the KS campaign.

Edited July 2, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gfted1]

If you would like to create a new thread I would be happy to move these posts to it.

[IndiraLightfoot]

No need any longer, Gfted1. See General Discussions! 

[Killyox]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post416996876

 

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/475523297363126588

 

 

Thoughts?

Thoughts? 

 

GREAT NEWS!

 

Why?

 

Because I still have it fresh in my mind when fighters in Dragon Age could not regenerate stamina, there were no stamina potions and after 2 special attacks all you could do for the rest of the fight was to auto-attack. Mages on the other hand had items regenerating mana and potions.

 

It's staple mechanic to have certain classes in RPG resource mechanic; Diablo 3, mana, rage, arcane power, hatred etc. Now imagine they could not regenerate it... BOOORIIING

[Eiphel]

Thoughts? 

 

GREAT NEWS!

 

Why?

 

Because I still have it fresh in my mind when fighters in Dragon Age could not regenerate stamina, there were no stamina potions and after 2 special attacks all you could do for the rest of the fight was to auto-attack. Mages on the other hand had items regenerating mana and potions.

 

It's staple mechanic to have certain classes in RPG resource mechanic; Diablo 3, mana, rage, arcane power, hatred etc. Now imagine they could not regenerate it... BOOORIIING

 

You're under a bit of a misapprehension - Stamina isn't a resource used for your moves. It's your health.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Eiphel

[Karkarov]

Fighters need something to make them stand out, I see no problem with it especially when you consider that we don't know anywhere near enough about the mechanics to be going rules lawyer mode and making judgements.

 

Meanwhile...

 

Barbarian has the highest hit dice in D&D 2E, 3E and 4E.

 

P:E Barbarian is about Melee AoE damage / taking out trashmobs.

Sigh... *plays broken record*

 

This isn't Dungeon's and Dragons, stop making D&D based comparisons.  They have no merit and there is no reason to assume just because D&D did it P:E will too.

[Lephys]

Perhaps you missed the part where Im talking about Health. Everyone knows how Stamina will work (just like Health in other games).

 

And nobody retreats forward, that's stupid. You retreat back to the places you've already cleared and to known rest locations.

Perhaps you missed the part where Stamina is still a separate concern even before Health gets anywhere NEAR zero, as well as the part where I wasn't in any way implying that you or anyone else here didn't comprehend how Stamina worked, and/or that Health somehow didn't matter at all. I addressed both of them.

 

Also, I specifically said "opposite-of-retreat," which is exactly what it says it is, so there's really no need to explain how no one retreats forward. And, for that matter, you could actually retreat forward. If you're traveling forward (progressing toward your ultimate destination/goal) and are ambushed from behind or flanked from the sides, your only means of retreat would be to hurry in the direction you're already headed (especially if you're, say, crossing a field or open space, and the nearest cover you can reach is ahead of you). Retreat is the escape away from danger, not necessarily in any specific direction.

 

Also, I'd just like to emphasize that the more pertinent point of my specific response was to your suggestion that, since Health always eventually ticks down toward zero as you make your way through conflicts between rest spots, you're ALWAYS going to be forced to retrace your steps to the last rest spot to get your health back. Basically, you're implying that it's not even possible you'll simply make it to the next rest spot with any health left. That you'll ALWAYS run out of Health with at least 1 conflict left between your party and the rest spot.

 

While possible, that's far from a guaranteed situation.

[Nonek]

 

I've got to admit i'm very worried about these preferred role mechanics, especially with their aping of Dragon Age 2 and World of Warcraft. With Barbarians now being ideal for trash mobs

Guts barbarian incarnate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akrIUNjt7zE

 

 

Well I don't think that it will be that silly, why is that male model named after the stomach?

[Karkarov]

Well I don't think that it will be that silly, why is that male model named after the stomach?

Actually compared to his later feats what he does in that battle is almost nothing.  That character is however not a barbarian in the least, a "berserker" (harharhar) maybe, but not a barbarian.  His name is Gut's because his japanese name basically translates for meaning to be like uh... "willpower".  Also he is most certainly not a model, at the current point in his ongoing story he is short a hand, an eye, has more scars than Solid Snake, and his hair is going white.

[Nonek]

His snake is scarred? Does the gentleman practise masochism or somesuch?

 

Edit: I didn't see the gentleman biting on his shield rim or frothing at the mouth, as was the traditional Berserks wont, so i'm not sure that definition applies. He certainly doesn't appear to be scandinavian.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Nonek

[Karkarov]

His snake is scarred? Does the gentleman practise masochism or somesuch?

 

Edit: I didn't see the gentleman biting on his shield rim or frothing at the mouth, as was the traditional Berserks wont, so i'm not sure that definition applies. He certainly doesn't appear to be scandinavian.

Actually in the second episode of the show he stops a guy from attacking him by biting their sword, literally.  He also lost an arm because a monster was biting it and he decided chopping it off to free him so he could attack someone else was more important than keeping his arm.

 

I am pretty sure he qualifies.

[Nonek]

I assume he can't talk now lacking a lower jaw and all, pity to mess up the pretty boy looks however. Doesn't sound or look like he qualifies at all to me, does he practise Allfathers runecasting or recite kenning poetry as was many of the legendary Berserks predilection?

[Eiphel]

I assume he can't talk now lacking a lower jaw and all

Raziel always seemed to get by.

[Nonek]

I always assumed that he was just using telepathy, I did like the stomach jest from the third game however.

[Jarmo]

Well I'm a bit disappointed, not in the stamina regeneration as such, but in PE fighters being classic meat shields as in all too many RPG's.

 

When compared with a ranger, who splits his time between forest dwelling, or rogue, who's mostly a rogue but also fights a bit in a pinch,

it just doesn't make sense to me a fighter who just focuses in fighting, is actually the least effective damage dealer of the three.

Instead of having learned to use weapons with any skill worth mentioning, he's good at getting attacked and being hit. :/

 

I do see the reasoning. It's that damn balancing of combat capability of all classes. Making me like the classless systems all the better.

Oh well.. I'll live.

[Karkarov]

I assume he can't talk now lacking a lower jaw and all, pity to mess up the pretty boy looks however. Doesn't sound or look like he qualifies at all to me, does he practise Allfathers runecasting or recite kenning poetry as was many of the legendary Berserks predilection?

No but he also doesn't try to lamely troll characters in media that he knows nothing about making himself look kind of like an ass either.  He retained the lower jaw, single edged sword he bit.

[Nonek]

I assure you i'm not trying to troll anybody sir, I freely admit I know nothing about that cartoon, I was just politely responding with what I thought would be a logical interested reaction so as to provoke discussion. Obviously my responses have raised your ire so I shall withdraw, hoping there are no hard feelings.