Leveling up, stat growth, and power curve.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Looking through the PE wiki just now, I realized that there wasn't much information on level advancement. Since I couldn't find anything solid, I want to get a general feel how the community feels about it.

 

1. Should the growth of stats like accuracy, defense, skill points, and health/stamina be dependent on class?

 

2. Should stat growth be more exponential or linear?

 

3. How often(if at all) should attribute growth happen?

 

4. At what rate should a character get talents, and should some classes get them faster than others?

 

5. How should the XP requirement for leveling up be determined?

[Sensuki]

There have been a lot of threads on this in the past and the answers to a lot of these things have been provided.

 

Growth of stats like accuracy, defenses, skills have unified advancement across all the classes. The difference between classes will always be their starting bonuses (+ gear, abilities, talents).

 

The word "finely granular" (or small increments) has been used to define the growth of some things and "coarsely granular" (big chunks) to others. Attack rates will probably increase at +1 per level or something which is 1% per level. Defenses will probably be like once every 3 or 4 levels or something.

 

We are not sure about attribute growth yet but you could probably assume it will be like D&D, an extra point to spend every 5 levels or something.

 

Talents are gained every 3 levels. Every class gets a bunch of class abilities at the start (3?) and then one class ability per level.

 

I wanted experience to be akin to the 2nd Edition Fighter D&D table, but I wouldn't be surprised if it closely mimics 3.5 or 4E.

 

I've actually been wanting to do up a website that has all the mechanics information, but I just haven't had the time (uni etc).

Edited June 18, 2013 by Sensuki

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Thank you very much for the clarification.

[okkoko]

well i want it to impact in a way that so that i will not spent 100 houres just to do the traning of skill and atribute and then im at max

[Doppelschwert]

Talents are gained every 3 levels. Every class gets a bunch of class abilities at the start (3?) and then one class ability per level.

 

Huh, this is new to me. Do you happen to have any sources on this?

I'm a bit dissapointed somehow. I thought that we'd be able to make an interesting choice in every level. A new class ability is surely a good thing in order to make leveling way more exciting than in DnD with its dead levels, but I had hoped for some customization at every level.

[J. Trudel]

 

Talents are gained every 3 levels. Every class gets a bunch of class abilities at the start (3?) and then one class ability per level.

 

Huh, this is new to me. Do you happen to have any sources on this?

I'm a bit dissapointed somehow. I thought that we'd be able to make an interesting choice in every level. A new class ability is surely a good thing in order to make leveling way more exciting than in DnD with its dead levels, but I had hoped for some customization at every level.

 

 

I have to agree that I also think every character level should contribute somehow in it's customisation. However this aproach is very hard because you don't want too much scaling in power. I hope the power scalling will not make the first critters irrevelent. If for exemple you encounter 30 golblins when you are very high level, they should still be dangerous. If they are made obsolete from power scalling, we will be caught fighting dragons at every corners making some creatures that should be epic fight boring. 

[Prometheus]

Huh, this is new to me. Do you happen to have any sources on this?

I'm a bit dissapointed somehow. I thought that we'd be able to make an interesting choice in every level. A new class ability is surely a good thing in order to make leveling way more exciting than in DnD with its dead levels, but I had hoped for some customization at every level.

For source see quote below:

 

Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions.

 

Do we know that you can't choose your class abillities? The only quote I found to this topic, is that it isn't decided. see quote below (from 3. June 2013):

 

 

In PE, will the player choose a class ability on level up or is there one specific ability per level?

We haven't decided on that yet. I'm designing the class abilities to be pretty complementary to each other so if we wanted to just let players go buck wild with any ol' combination of abilities, it *could* work, but we'll experiment with it to see how it feels.

 

Talents were always intended to be wild cards, so you can take them whenever as long as you meet one of the prerequisites. Prerequisites are designed to be "or"s and many of them will have an option that opens at higher levels. E.g., to take this talent you need to be an Elf or Aedyran or 9th level.

 

Edited August 1, 2013 by Prometheus

[anubite]

An ability every 3 levels? What's the max level? I imagine it's a multiple of 3? Or is it 20?

[Doppelschwert]

 

For source see quote below:

[...]

 

Do we know that you can't choose your class abillities? The only quote I found to this topic, is that it isn't decided. see quote below (from 3. June 2013): 

[...]

 

 

Thanks for the quotes. Now that I see them, I even recall having read them earlier. However, they are more vague in tone than sensukis post, so I guess reading some form of confirmation into his post made me surprised, as I only remembered that it wasn't decided as well.

 

A system I'd like best would be having to choose between class specific talents on each level up where the talents are tied to your level before appearing in a pool of possible choices, similar to what josh describes. This way you don't need a general talent on top in order to have a choice and the power curve isn't overblown.

Having different choices on level up would be fine by me as well, like having a repeating cycle of attribute bonus, general talent, class talent choice through the levels.

I'd probably like every system as long as there is some choice on every level.

[Doppelschwert]

An ability every 3 levels? What's the max level? I imagine it's a multiple of 3? Or is it 20?

 

I think they said in an interview to the german gamestar magazine that they were aiming for something along the lines of lvl 12 for the PE campagin, where further add-ons and sequels would raise the cap. I think that they'll only plan the levels that are relevant to the game they are doing at the moment.

[Gfted1]

For PE, all classes should use the same experience table and the entire party should level at the same instance.

[Kjaamor]

For PE, all classes should use the same experience table and the entire party should level at the same instance.

 

I disagree. I think it adds some variation to the reward system. Part of the things I hated about NWN2 was the way all of your characters levelled up at exactly the same time. I always preferred 'Ooh! Xan has levelled up, how does that change the party mechanic?' as opposed to 'Oh, the entire party has levelled up. Guess the mechanics stay the same but we're a bit more tough.'

 

Ymmv, but I would be deeply disappointed if all classes levelled up at the same time.

[Doppelschwert]

 

For PE, all classes should use the same experience table and the entire party should level at the same instance.

 

I disagree. I think it adds some variation to the reward system. Part of the things I hated about NWN2 was the way all of your characters levelled up at exactly the same time. I always preferred 'Ooh! Xan has levelled up, how does that change the party mechanic?' as opposed to 'Oh, the entire party has levelled up. Guess the mechanics stay the same but we're a bit more tough.'

 

Ymmv, but I would be deeply disappointed if all classes levelled up at the same time.

 

 

I'm not sure if you're for different experience tables or for different level up moments or both.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the same experience tables, and I'm pretty sure that this is what we will get. The reason for that is simply that josh makes a lot of effort into normalizing things, e.g.

 

 

Growth of stats like accuracy, defenses, skills have unified advancement across all the classes. The difference between classes will always be their starting bonuses (+ gear, abilities, talents).

 

which would completely miss the point if you have different experience tables. I also don't see the rationale behind having different experience tables. Regarding the level up moments across party members, I'd prefer them to be spread out over a level so that you have a positive event every once in a while, but ultimatively I don't care and I guess that its way easier to balance with equal experience distribution.

However, I hate it if only the party members that didn't fell unconscious gain experience, as the danger for certain classes to get knocked out are often unequal.

[Gfted1]

With no other option for accruing experience other than the completion of quests (meaning every party member will receive the exact same lump sum), it would be unfair and break my verisimilitude to have some party member lagging behind others. Why should one class advance when everyone in the party received the same exact XP reward?

[Greensleeve]

 

For PE, all classes should use the same experience table and the entire party should level at the same instance.

 

I disagree. I think it adds some variation to the reward system. Part of the things I hated about NWN2 was the way all of your characters levelled up at exactly the same time. I always preferred 'Ooh! Xan has levelled up, how does that change the party mechanic?' as opposed to 'Oh, the entire party has levelled up. Guess the mechanics stay the same but we're a bit more tough.'

 

Ymmv, but I would be deeply disappointed if all classes levelled up at the same time.

 

 

I hate having different XP tables. It just adds annoying busywork and can easily unbalance classes. 

[Kjaamor]

With no other option for accruing experience other than the completion of quests (meaning every party member will receive the exact same lump sum), it would be unfair and break my verisimilitude to have some party member lagging behind others. Why should one class advance when everyone in the party received the same exact XP reward?

 

Inane reasons to justify the gameplay could be offered, but really the gameplay itself should suffice.

 

Edit:

 

I hate having different XP tables. It just adds annoying busywork and can easily unbalance classes.

 

If levelling up has become an annoying busywork, then I have missed what sounds like a fairly critical rpg meeting.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Kjaamor

[Gfted1]

Inane reasons to justify the gameplay could be offered, but really the gameplay itself should suffice.

Could you clarify this point?

 

Since quest XP has been foisted upon us to prevent people from farming the non-respawning mooks, everyone everywhere will receive the same xp rewards regardless of their actions within the party. As an example, why should the fighter advance faster than the mage?

[Kjaamor]

Inane reasons to justify the gameplay could be offered, but really the gameplay itself should suffice.

Could you clarify this point?

 

Since quest XP has been foisted upon us to prevent people from farming the non-respawning mooks, everyone everywhere will receive the same xp rewards regardless of their actions within the party. As an example, why should the fighter advance faster than the mage?

 

 

 I think it adds some variation to the reward system. Part of the things I hated about NWN2 was the way all of your characters levelled up at exactly the same time. I always preferred 'Ooh! Xan has levelled up, how does that change the party mechanic?' as opposed to 'Oh, the entire party has levelled up. Guess the mechanics stay the same but we're a bit more tough.'

 

Huh?

 

Also, what does quest exp being shared equally have to do with staggered levelling? It's the same as the IE games having kills and quest exp being shared equally.

[Gfted1]

Ah, so your analysis is "you don't like it". Cool. I judge a lot of things the same way.

 

I disagree that its the same because in the IE games you could die and earn nothing for the encounter. You cant die in PE so presumably everyone will earn the same xp at the same rate. At the end of the game I don't want my mage 2 levels behind my fighter because they have different tables and my mage will never be afforded the opportunity to reach maximum potential. If every class can reach max level by the end of the game then I don't care which system is used. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

With classes being balanced in a way where they are all relatively equal, having different XP tables seems to be unneeded.

 

Ah, so your analysis is "you don't like it". Cool. I judge a lot of things the same way.

 

I disagree that its the same because in the IE games you could die and earn nothing for the encounter. You cant die in PE so presumably everyone will earn the same xp at the same rate. At the end of the game I don't want my mage 2 levels behind my fighter because they have different tables and my mage will never be afforded the opportunity to reach maximum potential. If every class can reach max level by the end of the game then I don't care which system is used.

IIRC, the party members can die on a certain mode or difficulty setting.

[Gfted1]

With classes being balanced in a way where they are all relatively equal, having different XP tables seems to be unneeded.

I really liked how they handled advancement in SR.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I would not complain if PE used a system similar to SRR.

[Lephys]

It is kinda nice to be able to go "Ooh! My mage gained a new level! Let's see how that changes my party dynamic," instead of always just getting this level-up-times-6 boost in your overall effectiveness at very even intervals. However, I'm not entirely sure what all that really means, objectively, as far as the system design is concerned.

 

Also, even if everyone has the same XP tables, I'm curious to know how the XP allocation will be handled. To reference existing examples, there's the "you get 100XP, so you actually get 100x6 XP, as every individual character in your party gets 100XP (the quest reward value)" approach, and the BG "you get 120 XP, so each character in your party actually only gets 20 XP" approach, and there's even things like individual characters getting bonus XP for specific acts, such as lockpicking, etc. In some games, lockpicking XP (for example) goes to the whole party, while in other games, it only goes to that specific character.

 

Just details it'd be nice to know. I'm aware we may have to wait a bit for them.

[Kjaamor]

Ah, so your analysis is "you don't like it". Cool. I judge a lot of things the same way.

 

I disagree that its the same because in the IE games you could die and earn nothing for the encounter. You cant die in PE so presumably everyone will earn the same xp at the same rate. At the end of the game I don't want my mage 2 levels behind my fighter because they have different tables and my mage will never be afforded the opportunity to reach maximum potential. If every class can reach max level by the end of the game then I don't care which system is used. 

 

Give a slightly sarcastic reply, expect a slightly sarcastic answer. Fair play.

 

In fairness, I've always assumed that regardless of actual level, classes would all be within one level of power of their fellows. As it was in the (personally beloved) BG days. A level 4 mage can still be more powerful than a level 5 fighter, if that is reflected in the class balance and (subsequently) the levelling system.

 

Staggered levelling, when done well, spreads the reward of levelling up whilst only mildly changing the party mechanics and keeping all classes within relevant, but also giving periods where some classes shine - slightly - above others. What I was suggesting, as long as it fits with your hope that all classes can attain the same level of competancy, is that the staggered process adds both more decision-making and more fun.

[Lephys]

Staggered levelling, when done well, spreads the reward of levelling up whilst only mildly changing the party mechanics and keeping all classes within relevant, but also giving periods where some classes shine - slightly - above others. What I was suggesting, as long as it fits with your hope that all classes can attain the same level of competancy, is that the staggered process adds both more decision-making and more fun.

That's what immediately came to my mind... If you kind of think of the whole party as one character, you get one new ability/capability-increase at a time, rather than play,play,play,play, SIX NEW ABILITIES!

 

Granted, I know the party is 6 people and not 1, but the player is still just one person. Gaining "Crippling Shot" allows you to do more/different things in the same combat situations to overcome difficulties, whereas gaining Crippling Shot, Power Slam, Mana Grenade, Shadow Dodge, and Light Chakram all at the same time doesn't really give you the opportunity to make use of one of those ability with the limitations of not being able to also use all the others. You get rather abrupt spikes in party competency. A party of opponents a level above you could go from quite-challenging to quite-easy, rather than going to pretty-evenly-matched.

 

I'm acknowledging both forms of staggered leveling (individual-character XP gain AND varied leveling thresholds), for the record. I was just thinking of aspects shared between both. 8P

Edited August 2, 2013 by Lephys