Sweden riots

[Nepenthe]

Immigrants from the ghetto?

 

I read that they're getting 2000+ euros (welfare benefits) per month for a family of four, free education + healthcare.  What are they rioting about?

 

Families in Serbia live  subsist on 400 euros per month earned money - (no benefits or meagre ones).

 

Granted everything is more expensive in Sweden, but I don't think its that much.

 

Turns out that it doesn't matter how big your welfare is, if you lack prospects/work, you will create mischief. Idleness is literally the root of all evil. That's why I wholeheartedly support tv sets in prison cells - the time the guys spend watching 70s show isn't spent on creating new grudges or sharpening shivs. It's also why I question comprehensive welfare systems.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The obvious question that presents itself is why so many unqualified workers were let in in the first place. Every government has all the relevant statistics for the job market, and knows approximately how many low income workers can be absorbed and what its needs are. Somewhere in all that someone must have seen how this was going to end up.

[Rosbjerg]

For some inexplicable reason, every time there's and upswing in the economy, people in power always seem to assume it'll last forever.. 

[Nepenthe]

The obvious question that presents itself is why so many unqualified workers were let in in the first place. Every government has all the relevant statistics for the job market, and knows approximately how many low income workers can be absorbed and what its needs are. Somewhere in all that someone must have seen how this was going to end up.

 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Politicians in Finland at least tend to be of average intellect and academic performance, at best (sure, few exceptions). It's fair to assume that the difference between a skilled and unskilled labourer is already too difficult for them, even before you start factoring in leftist ideologies (free movement, everybody should enjoy the same standard of living we do) or xenophobia and the adverse effect it has on the employability of immigrants.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Sure but now that its a problem, everyone is frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of a crackdown on immigration. Its crossed over from pragmatism (if it ever was truly pragmatic) to religious fervor in the span of a single generation. And because no one is willing to give way the keg of powder remains lit.

 

I used to be a thorough leftist once but the way today's left (which isn't really left anymore, more of a centre liberalism with a few remnants of welfare state) solves problems by throwing money at them - I don't think its going to work I know its not going to work.

 

Serbia is not a target for immigration due to low job opportunities but we get the worst of both worlds as a transit route. We intercept the illegal immigrants, but can't deport them back (because certain EU states are wringing arms on this issue and because their home countries don't want them back) - and they're piling up in the single center we have for this purposes. A couple of thousand of them... in a town of two thousand inhabitants. Loitering around without a job around street corners, in a country with an above 30% unemployment rate without any prospects for a job.

[Zoraptor]

The obvious question that presents itself is why so many unqualified workers were let in in the first place. Every government has all the relevant statistics for the job market, and knows approximately how many low income workers can be absorbed and what its needs are. Somewhere in all that someone must have seen how this was going to end up.

Truth is that a certain level of unemployment is seen as beneficial- and that the social fabric of most western countries is unsustainable as it stands. First part is because unemployment- and especially low wage/ skill unemployment- keeps down wage demands and costs and ensures that productivity gains do not have to be passed on to the (replaceable) workforce. If the workforce weren't replaceable the balance of power shifts and superprofits become a thing of the past. Second part is because most western countries are at or below population replacement thresholds and face the prospect of having an ageing population wanting pensions but fewer people paying the taxes needed to fund them. 'Solution' is to import more people of working age*. It's a stupid solution because you cannot keep increasing population forever, but politicians gonna politicise and there ain't any hard decision (like upping the pension age) a politician won't put off if they can get away with it.

 

*And frankly, there are jobs that westerners count as beneath them. When I was in the UK in 2005 I ended up working with a bunch of Ukrainian/ Romanian/ Bulgarian people because they could not get enough British people to fill the vacancies- and those they did get were frequently unreliable and did not last. The imports worked harder and were more reliable, and were probably cheaper, too.

[Nonek]

 

*And frankly, there are jobs that westerners count as beneath them. When I was in the UK in 2005 I ended up working with a bunch of Ukrainian/ Romanian/ Bulgarian people because they could not get enough British people to fill the vacancies- and those they did get were frequently unreliable and did not last. The imports worked harder and were more reliable, and were probably cheaper, too.

 

 

Unfortunately I can attest to this, it's gotten to the point where I expect a young native Englishman to be lazy and unmotivated, while an eager immigrant who's travelled far from home on his own initiative will usually work hard and without stint. They oftentimes possess better written English as well as general education. It's saddening, but true.

 

It doesn't help when our daily newspapers (if they can be called that) are whipping up storms of racism and xenophobia. I find this especially galling when directed against the Polish community, who we welcomed in their hundreds when fighting in the Battle of Britain, but now suddenly find undesirable.

 

On the subject of the riots I hope none of our Scandinavian cousins have been too hurt, either physically or financially.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The obvious question that presents itself is why so many unqualified workers were let in in the first place. Every government has all the relevant statistics for the job market, and knows approximately how many low income workers can be absorbed and what its needs are. Somewhere in all that someone must have seen how this was going to end up.

Truth is that a certain level of unemployment is seen as beneficial- and that the social fabric of most western countries is unsustainable as it stands. First part is because unemployment- and especially low wage/ skill unemployment- keeps down wage demands and costs and ensures that productivity gains do not have to be passed on to the (replaceable) workforce. If the workforce weren't replaceable the balance of power shifts and superprofits become a thing of the past. Second part is because most western countries are at or below population replacement thresholds and face the prospect of having an ageing population wanting pensions but fewer people paying the taxes needed to fund them. 'Solution' is to import more people of working age*. It's a stupid solution because you cannot keep increasing population forever, but politicians gonna politicise and there ain't any hard decision (like upping the pension age) a politician won't put off if they can get away with it.

 

*And frankly, there are jobs that westerners count as beneath them. When I was in the UK in 2005 I ended up working with a bunch of Ukrainian/ Romanian/ Bulgarian people because they could not get enough British people to fill the vacancies- and those they did get were frequently unreliable and did not last. The imports worked harder and were more reliable, and were probably cheaper, too.

 

 

Sure but the next logical question is: why are they imported from countries where there is a high level of illiteracy, where the social norms are completely at odds with what "europe" stands for and where there's reason to assume there may be political issues as well - and last of all terrorism. Obviously I'm talking about northern africa and the middle east.

 

There's a lot of dislike for eastern europeans in europe, but I don't think anyone is going to dispute that its easier to integrate Ukrainians, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc than, well, anyone else. All eastern block countries have decent general education and populations acclimated to living in large cities.

[BruceVC]

I will tell you guys another major issue we are seeing in South Africa and that's Xenophobia we see as a result of the social conditions and the  number of immigrants. Firstly it is not fair and is not justified but its a reality we see in poor area's in South Africa. We have very lax border controls with our neighbors and due to the political instability in countries like Zimbabwe we have close to 1 million Zimbabwean nationals living in South Africa alone. This excludes the huge numbers of Somalians, Mozambicans and other groups of people from Africa who come looking for a better life.

 

These groups of foreigners are generally industrious and hard working and end setting up shops in townships and making a good living. But we have huge numbers of unemployment so every year we will see incidents of Xenophobia against these immigrants where they get blamed for taking jobs and not wanting to become part of South African society. Personally I think this is unwarranted and these attacks are more by criminal elements. This violence is perpetuated by the impoverished people in our country against foreigners  and another attack happened this week

 

http://za.news.yahoo.com/shops-looted-diepsloot-052339610.html

Edited May 30, 2013 by BruceVC

[Nepenthe]

"Unemployment is the chief export of Somalia". Unfortunately it's not that far from the truth, either.

[Zoraptor]

Sure but the next logical question is: why are they imported from countries where there is a high level of illiteracy, where the social norms are completely at odds with what "europe" stands for and where there's reason to assume there may be political issues as well - and last of all terrorism. Obviously I'm talking about northern africa and the middle east.

 

There's a lot of dislike for eastern europeans in europe, but I don't think anyone is going to dispute that its easier to integrate Ukrainians, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc than, well, anyone else. All eastern block countries have decent general education and populations acclimated to living in large cities.

 

Most of the eastern countries have the same basic problem with birth rates that the west has, something that most of the ME and Africa do not. So there's more competition, and less supply. But that has happened to an extent, there were an estimated 1 million Poles in the UK at one point which is far more than come from any African or ME country and probably more than all 'unintegrated' immigrants combined, I note that the fear about Romanians and Bulgars invading is starting to ramp up from the usual quarters as well- and obviously from my anecdotal experience I was primarily working with east euros (one Iraqi only, and he was married to a nice english girl). As Nonek pointed out though, east euros are hardly immune from anti immigrant rhetoric either.

[Nepenthe]

Unfortunately, when you deal with a lot of criminal cases, you realise that it isn't all rhetoric. The amount of Eastern Europeans in criminal statistics is absolutely staggering. Of course the people who cause the issues don't (mostly) seek permanent residence but instead are pros that make hit and run crime sprees in one country after the other. There's a middle ground, the "traveler" types who will obviously take what they can get where they can get it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Sadly the criminals are the first to arrive when the Schengen is implemented. I don't know what its like in other Balkan and EE countries  but the police here is more efficient than you'd think at first glance. The criminals obviously go where they'll have an easier time. 

Another thing to consider is that even when the borders are open many honest people don't have enough money, connections, don't speak any of the major european languages etc. to actually cross the border and find a job. It takes serious money to settle in an EU country! None of which is a problem for criminals.

 

The middle class is hit the worst, because the EU has their jobs  covered by its own population so those who end up going are desperate people, criminals, manual laborers, unqualified workers...

This leads to a skewered perspective of people from those countries.

 

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

[obyknven]

Import of immigrants is purely right-wing politics, nothing leftist in this.

 

 

The results of this world war of conquest was a great ring of millions of migrants in all the world "Foreigners" in the world "without borders" which the victors of the Third World War promised. Millions of people suffered xenophobic persecution, precarious labor conditions, loss of cultural identity, police repression, hunger, prison, death.

"From the American Rio Grande to the "European" Schengen space, a double contradictory tendency is confirmed. On one side the borders are closed officially to the migration of labor, on the other side entire branches of the economy oscillate between instability and flexibility, which are the most secure means of attracting a foreign labor force" (Alain Morice, Op. Cit.).

With different names, under a judicial differentiation, sharing an equality of misery, the migrants or refugees or displaced of all the world are "foreigners" who are tolerated or rejected. The nightmare of migration, whatever its causes, continues to roll and grow over the planet's surface. The number of people who are accounted for in the statistics of the UN High Commission on Refugees has grown disproportionately from some 2 million in 1975 to 27 million in 1995.

With national borders destroyed ( for merchandise) the globalized market organizes the global economy: research and design of goods and services, as well as their circulation and consumption are thought of in intercontinental terms. For each part of the capitalist process the "new world order" organizes the flow of the labor force, specialized or not, up to where it is necessary. Far from subject ing itself to the "free flow" so clucked-over by neoliberalism, the employment markets are each day determined more by migratory flows. Where skilled workers are concerned, whose numbers are not significance in the context of global migration, the "crossing of brains" represents a great deal in terms of economic power and knowledge. Nevertheless, whether skilled labor, or unskilled labor, the migratory politics of neoliberalism is oriented more towards destabilizing the global labor market than towards stopping immigration.

The Fourth World War, with its process of destruction/depopulation and reconstruction/reorganization provokes the displacement of millions of people. Their destiny is to continue to wander, with the nightmare at their side, and to offer to employed workers in different nations a threat to their employment stability, an enemy to hide the image of the boss, and a pretext for giving meaning to the racist nonsense promoted by neoliberalism.

This is the symbol of the errant nightmare of global migration, a ring of terror which roams all over the world.

 

Russia is pure capitalistic state now and  huge amount of immigrants after USSR dissolving appeared here too.

http://youtu.be/fxN6pZcAa-s

[BruceVC]

 

Russia is pure capitalistic state now and  huge amount of immigrants after USSR dissolving appeared here too

At last my friend, congratulations

 

Trust me things can only get better in Russia now that you are Capitalist state. You are going to see both the power and beauty of a proper economy. I am excited for you, but please don't stop exporting all those gorgeous Russian strippers...I'll miss them lots

Edited May 31, 2013 by BruceVC

[Osvir]

I haven't followed this story so I don't know too much about it as a whole.

I think a lot of it is misunderstanding, some of the riots at least.

In essence: We've got some real numbskulls in our urban areas. That's not judgemental, I just think they are acting dumb and having a different rational perspective. Take this article for instance, written by a Journalist at our Swedish Television (SVT = SVensk Television), translation is courtesy of Google Translate:

http://hotlamotte.com/2013/05/24/aftonbladet-och-expressen-betalar-oss-for-att-branna-bilar-i-husby/

"Aftonbladet and Expressen pay us to burn cars in Husby"

Posted on May 24, 2013 by hotlamotte

Yesterday I spent as a journalist, a day in Husby. The first thing that strikes me when I go out is how quiet it is. The other thing that strikes me is that there are almost more journalists than residents of Husby center.

 

I meet up with some guys who starts to talk about how much they hate "journalistfittorna" (journalist p***ies) who go to Husby and contributes to escalating stone throwing and violence.

 

"Aftonbladet and Expressen can go to hell," they say.

"One has to report on what is happening here," I say.

"Yes, but they do not need to pay us to burn cars. They tell us to video shoot when we burn cars in Husby, and that we will have 7'000 crowns* for a good movie, "they say.

 

It sounds strange, I think, and ask further. Some young people show that they have the phone number to Expressen in their mobiles. One of them claims to have sold a picture for 4'000 crowns to that newspaper.

 

Later, I meet some of Peaceful Street which also confirms the picture of how the tabloids are already criminalized youth to commit crime, by offering them money for their photos and movies. Some other guys telling how because of this the other day chased away several Aftonbladet Journalists from Husby.

 

It is still hard to believe that journalists behave like this. As a young man breaks into the talking. He has heard the call, and ask how much SVT pay if he is filming a car fire later in the evening. We do not work so, I answer. The guy looks almost a little disappointed with this.

 

If I get told me is true, it's a bitch. Then we got into a situation where professional ethics in the press corps has reached absolute zero. Then I feel ashamed to belong to the same guild as the journalists. Attracting socially and economically disadvantaged youth with money to put picture headlines and get more clicks on mobile sites must be the lowest form of journalistic profession. And that day the young guys and sentenced to pay a fine for vandalism, then I hope that the tabloids do not hesitate to jointly bear the expense.

 

Please Expressen and Aftonbladet, say that this is just a giant misunderstanding?

 

 

*7'000 crowns = about 1'050 USD

Basically, Aftonbladet and Expressen are indirectly contributing to the continuing violence and commotion. They might not mean for it but I believe some scenarios can easily be described such as this:

Scenario 1: Envy
Kid 1: "Lucky! I got 7000 crowns for capturing this on video!" <- not a criminal but a matter of "at the right place at the right time"
Kid 2: "Whaaat??" *Goes and burns cars to get some money*

Scenario 2: Aftonbladet & Expressen actually does pay for video and photographs
Kid 1: "Hey! We can make money if we burn down cars!"
Kid 2: "Yeaaah!"

In no way do I believe that media directly goes to the kids and tell them "Go and burn down some cars and we'll pay you" but the kids are aware that they will get paid if they get good photographs, and what is the best way to get good photographs? Become Peter Parker, right?

Money rules. I believe that some people believe that "let's burn down some cars!" is an exploit and a loophole rather than a crime, because of the fact that they can make money out of it.

And who makes most money out of it? Media. Honestly, I don't think they care much except "Yaaay! We got a top story here! Who cares if the kids think they can burn down cars and get paid! They are burning down cars and we get a story that sells like butter! Yaay!".

Edited May 31, 2013 by Osvir

[Rostere]

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

 

This is hilarious.

[obyknven]

 

 

Russia is pure capitalistic state now and  huge amount of immigrants after USSR dissolving appeared here too

At last my friend, congratulations

 

Trust me things can only get better in Russia now that you are Capitalist state. You are going to see both the power and beauty of a proper economy. I am excited for you, but please don't stop exporting all those gorgeous Russian strippers...I'll miss them lots

 

You are don't understand. Yes Russia now become  yet another capitalistic predator, but I'm afraid it's not god news for you. Russia are not puppet state, as your country is. It's good news only for someone who want use fight of capitalistic monsters for own purpose,  as Bolsheviks do in 1917, but you obviously not from this party.

[Malcador]

At last my friend, congratulations

 

Trust me things can only get better in Russia now that you are Capitalist state. You are going to see both the power and beauty of a proper economy. I am excited for you, but please don't stop exporting all those gorgeous Russian strippers...I'll miss them lots

And get shafted by bankers eventually.

[BruceVC]

 

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

 

This is hilarious.

 

It was funny, it never ceases to amaze me the depths of some peoples general ignorance

 

I remember last year when I was in Vegas I invited these 2  ladies to join me at my table for lunch. During the conversation I told them where I was from and they both looked surprised and said " you mean there are white people living in South Africa"

 

Oh well at least they were both hot

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

 

This is hilarious.

 

 

Its horrible. Its really the same frame of mind that spawned untermensch theories, a combination of ignorance, xenophobia and an repackaged chauvinism.

 

But at least its out in the open, no illusions about what they think of you.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

 

This is hilarious.

 

It was funny, it never ceases to amaze me the depths of some peoples general ignorance

 

I remember last year when I was in Vegas I invited these 2  ladies to join me at my table for lunch. During the conversation I told them where I was from and they both looked surprised and said " you mean there are white people living in South Africa"

 

Oh well at least they were both hot

 

 

You reach an age where hot and stupid no longer does it.

 

You start expecting hot and smart and either find one or don't and are still happier.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Russia is pure capitalistic state now and  huge amount of immigrants after USSR dissolving appeared here too

At last my friend, congratulations

 

Trust me things can only get better in Russia now that you are Capitalist state. You are going to see both the power and beauty of a proper economy. I am excited for you, but please don't stop exporting all those gorgeous Russian strippers...I'll miss them lots

 

You are don't understand. Yes Russia now become  yet another capitalistic predator, but I'm afraid it's not god news for you. Russia are not puppet state, as your country is. It's good news only for someone who want use fight of capitalistic monsters for own purpose,  as Bolsheviks do in 1917, but you obviously not from this party.

 

 

 

I don't know I think you just aren't seeing all the advantages of Capitalism

 

• Access to cool restaurants like McDonald's, you guys don't have to eat Wild Bear anymore. Imagine being able to eat proper Beef burgers?
• Dozens of new supermarkets owned by global companies  will appear in Russia and you don't have to visit those awful little supermarkets that have been owned by local families for generations as they will be put out of business
• You can legally pay minimum wage to your staff and be able to fire anyone you don't like, no more worrying about annoying things like Trade Unions and workers rights
• If you are a Banker you will still get a huge bonus despite the fact your  company didn't make a profit and you probably lost the life savings of thousands of customers

Those are just some of the advantages of  being part of Capitalism, but there are more

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

The bias is definitely there. I remember chatting to a US woman. She thought I was living in the US. When I told here where I was from  she said: studying or in jail?

 

This is hilarious.

 

It was funny, it never ceases to amaze me the depths of some peoples general ignorance

 

I remember last year when I was in Vegas I invited these 2  ladies to join me at my table for lunch. During the conversation I told them where I was from and they both looked surprised and said " you mean there are white people living in South Africa"

 

Oh well at least they were both hot

 

 

You reach an age where hot and stupid no longer does it.

 

You start expecting hot and smart and either find one or don't and are still happier.

 

 

Maybe, but hot and uninformed I can live with

[obyknven]

I don't know I think you just aren't seeing all the advantages of Capitalism

• Access to cool restaurants like McDonald's, you guys don't have to eat Wild Bear anymore. Imagine being able to eat proper Beef burgers?
• Dozens of new supermarkets owned by global companies  will appear in Russia and you don't have to visit those awful little supermarkets that have been owned by local families for generations as they will be put out of business
• You can legally pay minimum wage to your staff and be able to fire anyone you don't like, no more worrying about annoying things like Trade Unions and workers rights
• If you are a Banker you will still get a huge bonus despite the fact your  company didn't make a profit and you probably lost the life savings of thousands of customers

Those are just some of the advantages of  being part of Capitalism, but there are more

 

Lol. You are kidding me? We are f****ng evil empire, we want rule the world, our forces are invincible, our territory are biggest on world, our scientists send humanity into space, and you trying buy us as primitive tribal's by glass  McDonald's? 

 

• "Restaurants" like McDonald's in Russia have status eatery for homeless people.
• Dozens of new supermarkets owned by global companies losing a competitive struggle in Russia against local supermarkets.
•  In Russia Trade Unions is part of oppression system  and workers have no rights.
• Almost all Russian economics have speculative character, for Russians is absolutely normal do nothing and have huge profit.

Obviously our  capitalism is more capitalism, then your capitalism. Use Your lectures about capitalism for someone else.