NWN2 influences: what to take and what to leave

[exodiark]

 

I never heard of this, is there a source?

I'm just asking since the accusation is quite heavy without source.

and trust me when I say that what he did to save NWN2 and get it out the door was nothing short of amazing (I have mad respect for Josh, and I think he's underappreciated as a designer. In my time working with the man every chat with him has been a reminder that the dude is badass and knows his ****).

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/gamepro-feature-the-26-best-rpgs.27585/page-5#post-630494

 

NWN2 OC had several problems, many of which were solved when Josh Sawyer Chris Avellone took over the project - which is the nicest and most professional way I can phrase it. We all worked very hard on NWN2: OC, especially once we found our direction. Unfortunately sometimes you can't go back and you have to live with certain choices that have already been made and implemented.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/aliens-rpg-now-officially-canceled.33947/page-3#post-817166

 

you can blame alot of nwn2's issues on ferret's decisions and the status of the game when he left.

 

Thanks, I have an interest in game development, so I like stories like this.

[Micamo]

Yeah, sorcerers are much lower-maintenance than wizards and arguably more fun if you just want to get on with the game. Wizards for hardcore D&D geeks really. I like playing them too; with some thought you can just make them ridiculously powerful.

I disagree: Sorcerers are *very* newbie-unfriendly. Why? Well, let's say you selected a spell that sounded much more awesome when you first read it than when you actually tried to use it (which will happen to newbies more often than experienced players, especially since there are so many overly situational trap spells printed). If you're a wizard, no problem, just swap it out tomorrow. If you're a sorcerer? You're screwed and have to wait a few levels to be able to swap it out, and you can only swap one spell at a time this way. If you have a nice DM who will let you retrain without too much trouble this is much less of a problem.

 

Furthermore if you're micromanaging your spells as a prepared caster every day you are wasting your time: Make one list (that you edit each time you level up, which is what you have to do as a sorcerer anyway) of spells you keep prepared each day, and make scrolls for whatever else you need. If you have a specific reason to need to prepare a new spell outside of this list, then just make a note of the temporary change (going straight back to your usual list when you're done).

 

(Another terrible thing about sorcerors: They can only make scrolls of spells they have on their spells known list. A wizard can just make whatever scrolls they want. Spend one session of walking around with a handy haversack filled with situational scrolls you've made and you'll never want to play a sorcerer again.)

 

I like the P:E grimoire thing, by the way – it will let us combine the fluidity of playing as a Sorc with the situational optimization you get as a Wiz. When playing as a wiz (or cleric, for that matter) I pretty much play as if I had two or three 'grimoires' I'm switching between – except that I have to hand-manage it spell by spell, which is a drag.

I'm holding judgement on the grimoire thing until I see it: I fear it'll have the same problem you get when you have a DM who insists on using the spell page count rules so you have to juggle multiple spellbooks around (there's a reason so few DMs use those rules that most players don't even know they exist).

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah, you're right, you do need to have a feel for the spells before rolling up a sorc. Once you do, though, I do find them lower-maintenance.

 

But I still stand by my main assertion – different circumstances need different spell lists, and I do want to switch between lists rather than individual spells. If I'm going into an undead-infested dungeon, I need one set of spells; if I'm fighting a horde of orcs, I want another set of spells, and if I'm facing a few powerful casters, I want yet another set of spells. I'll want lots of arcane defense and disjunction spells against the latter, for example, whereas I won't need them at all against the orcs. Just going with a fixed list fleshed out with some scrolls is... sub-optimal, shall I say.

 

In PnP this is no problem of course; my caster-players keep a bunch of lists they've prepared and just announce which one they're memorizing. Effectively grimoires.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I've always hated that a Fighter does pretty much whatever they want, all with the same weapon, yet a Wizard/caster typically just has a kit of very specific weapons that you have to keep switching between.

Fighter: "Well, I can stand here and full attack, or I can move and just get one attack. If the planetary alignments are right, I've dedicated my entire build to it, and the enemy isn't bigger than me, I can trip them, knock them over, grab and hold them in place, or charge at them for more damage."Wizard: "Well, I can make illusions of anything I want, summon things to do anything I want, dominate things and make them do anything I want, shapeshift into anything I want, give them a curse that does anything I want, turn the bad guy into a squirrel, send them straight to hell, teleport myself and my friends across the continent instantly, use telekinesis to fling things around, fly around all day, create extradimensional spaces to hide in, turn invisible, spy on bad guys from as far away as I like, send illusory doubles into combat for me, play 20 questions with alien gods, instantly conjure any tool that I need, communicate telepathically with whoever I want, meld the landscape into anything I want, etc. etc. etc., all of this with just my spells that I get for free and being able to invest other aspects into my build into whatever I desire, instead of having to dedicate myself entirely to one trick to be able to attempt it on weak enemies at all."Fighter: "*sobs*"

Unless the Wizard gets hit and fails the Concentration check. While said Wizard is wrenching in pain, the Fighter will be hacking into the foe with a +5 weapon, while avoiding damage because of the +5 Mithiral Full Plate and multitude of magic items used for protection. The Rogue will be firing Sneak Attack shots into enemies rushing the Fighter while avoiding getting hit. The Cleric will be busy buffing everyone and occasionally beating something with a mace or unleashing a Flame Strike, all in the comforts of heavy armor and carrying a shield.

 

Not to mention that half the things the Wizard wants to do costs an arm and a leg for the spell components. Or that with magic items, the chances of debuffs working goes down a bit. Or that a Weapon Master build for a Fighter doesn't need to focus on tricks.

Edited June 28, 2013 by KaineParker

[Kjaamor]

The first thing to learn from NWN2 is that designing the worse camera system in the history of video gaming is a bad idea.

 

The second thing to learn is that if you are going to insist on making much of the interface keyboard-based, then it's probably best to make the keyboard layout editor/viewer accessible from the in-game menu, rather than just the main menu.

 

The third thing to learn is that it's generally good, if you're making a party-based RPG, to give a choice of party members (or at least classes) before the ten hour mark.

 

Yadyadya.

 

I've never completed Vanilla NWN2, and although I'm presently on my longest ever playthrough, I can't see myself finishing it. As a single-player experience, the annoyances far outweigh the positives for me. The story and characters are drivel, all of the battles up to my point in the mid-game feel extremely easy, and what difficulties are present usually result directly from the interface. When what is essentially a turn-based game makes moving and targeting enemies more difficult than actually beating them then you have severe problems, in my opinion.

 

I'm also not especially convinced by the implementation of the 3.5 ruleset. Initially it looks good, but having coaxed me in with promises of wonderful prestige classes, the reality for all the world appears to be that most of the classes work best as single classes and most multiclasses are a shadow of their 3.0 counterparts. How much of that is NWN2 and how much is 3.5 is another matter, I suppose, but compared to the implementation in BG1/2 (or even ID2/ToEE) that it's akin to painting a turd orange and calling it a carrot.

[Lephys]

well, you know... equipping your wizard with a crossbow should solve the problem.

Yeah! Just take a bunch of DEX at the cost of INT, so that you can actually hit things with your crossbow at the cost of even more magical effectiveness. Maybe take some ranged weapon feats instead of magic feats. There ya go! Problem solved! 8D

 

You can be a magic-based class and still do JUST as many things per-combat as a Ranger! All you have to do is mimic the Ranger, only worse! 8D!

 

Fighter: "Well, I can stand here and full attack, or I can move and just get one attack. If the planetary alignments are right, I've dedicated my entire build to it, and the enemy isn't bigger than me, I can trip them, knock them over, grab and hold them in place, or charge at them for more damage."

 

Wizard: "Well, I can make illusions of anything I want, summon things to do anything I want, dominate things and make them do anything I want, shapeshift into anything I want, give them a curse that does anything I want, turn the bad guy into a squirrel, send them straight to hell, teleport myself and my friends across the continent instantly, use telekinesis to fling things around, fly around all day, create extradimensional spaces to hide in, turn invisible, spy on bad guys from as far away as I like, send illusory doubles into combat for me, play 20 questions with alien gods, instantly conjure any tool that I need, communicate telepathically with whoever I want, meld the landscape into anything I want, etc. etc. etc., all of this with just my spells that I get for free and being able to invest other aspects into my build into whatever I desire, instead of having to dedicate myself entirely to one trick to be able to attempt it on weak enemies at all."

 

Fighter: "*sobs*"

Context, people... context. We were talking about early game stuff, specifically. How, even at Level 1, your Warrior can deliver 7,000 "class-based" (weapon) attacks per day, whereas with a Wizard, it's "well, after you summon that one magic missile for 4 damage, you'll have to rely on all those things the other classes focus on, instead of what your class focuses on, and just suck way worse at all of it until you get your magics back.

 

Basically, the Wizard/caster gets to use magic or fall back on a weapon (which generally is not supported in any way, shape, or fashion by their class), while the non-Wizard/caster gets to use a weapon spiffily, or fall back on using a weapon less spiffily.

 

There typically is no "Use magic less-spiffily" in the majority of D&D based (prevalent) RPGs. Thankfully, in P:E, this will not be the case. If I want to be a Wizard, all the things I do can be Wizardly, as opposed to being forced to rely upon non-magical weapon attacks in all my downtime. And yet, if I want to make a Wizard who DOES focus at least partly on non-magical physical weapon competency, I still have that option.

 

Also, I in no way condone the whole "If you're a Wizard, you get to move entire mountains later in the game, when a Warrior can only still kill a single powerful foe at the height of his abilities."

 

I don't think being magical should make you inherently BETTER than everyone else at high levels, but rather should make you DIFFERENT. You can do a lot with magic that the Warrior can't do with Warriorness, and vice-versa. Not "I destroy dragons when I sneeze, but you get a lot of hitpoints and armor. *shrug*" Just for what it's worth.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I am very happy that the classes will all be balanced well. While they may perform better in some situations, Mages will not be more powerful than the other classes. From what I've seen, this is being done not by weakening the Mage, but by beefing up the other classes(with Soul powers) which is a much better method IMO.

 

Oh and in 3.5 D&D, Monks, Paladins and Barbarians destroyed Mages. Spells don't work so well when you have super high saves and magic resistance(Monks and Paladins with Holy Avenger) or high Fortitude and Will saves coupled with a huge amount of HP. With high level magical equipment available( which typically benefits non-casters more) a caster is lucky to get out a spell before being hit, which will likely make their next Concentration check very hard to make. PE should have a concentration mechanic(casting in front of an enemy should take a bit of focus) but perhaps PE could feature a Talent that halves the DC increase from damage or other effects? This would be a bit more useful than the static bonus given in 3.5 at higher levels.

 

Come to think of it, I think that all talents that are analogues to D&D feats should get better as the character's level increases. The Weapon Focus analogue could add +1 to hit every level for example.

Edited June 29, 2013 by KaineParker

[Micamo]

Context, people... context. We were talking about early game stuff, specifically. How, even at Level 1, your Warrior can deliver 7,000 "class-based" (weapon) attacks per day, whereas with a Wizard, it's "well, after you summon that one magic missile for 4 damage, you'll have to rely on all those things the other classes focus on, instead of what your class focuses on, and just suck way worse at all of it until you get your magics back.

 

Basically, the Wizard/caster gets to use magic or fall back on a weapon (which generally is not supported in any way, shape, or fashion by their class), while the non-Wizard/caster gets to use a weapon spiffily, or fall back on using a weapon less spiffily.

The intent behind vancian casting is that the caster has to very carefully ration their magic and only use it when they absolutely need it, or else they'll be screwed the rest of the day until the party decides to rest. The design assumption is that the party goes through 4-5 encounters each day, and spells/day and spell power is balanced around that.

 

How it works in practice is that casters blow through their spells as fast as possible to "nova" their way through encounters, then the party stops to rest the moment the casters are out of high-level spells, thus only going through 1-2 encounters each day: The so-called 15-minute workday. It's hotly debated whether this is a problem at all and, if it is, what should be done about it: Some say it's just the players being munchkin powergamers and they should knock it off, others say it's the DM being too much of a carebear and she should throw random encounters at parties to stop them from resting, and intelligent people say it's a problem with the rules themselves that this exploit exists at all. But everyone agrees it makes casters much more powerful than they were intended to be.

 

My two cents: No matter what the extent that the 15 minute workday is a practical problem (I've always allowed it and played in games that allow it and it's never once caused problems for us, but plenty of people complain about it so it must be a problem for someone, somewhere), I think it's bad design at least from a theoretical perspective: It's balance dependent upon metagame factors rarely under the control of the DM, let alone the designers. It's like having a class with different powers depending on what kind of shoes the player is wearing.

 

There typically is no "Use magic less-spiffily" in the majority of D&D based (prevalent) RPGs. Thankfully, in P:E, this will not be the case. If I want to be a Wizard, all the things I do can be Wizardly, as opposed to being forced to rely upon non-magical weapon attacks in all my downtime. And yet, if I want to make a Wizard who DOES focus at least partly on non-magical physical weapon competency, I still have that option.

4th edition tried it but there were, uhh, other problems.

 

Of the D&D-likes I know of I think Pathfinder comes the closest: 0th-level spells are at-will. This is a great boon in the early levels but diminishes in importance as you level up, though Mage Hand and Prestidigitation alone are enough to carry a character from levels 1-20 if they're smart. I've experimented with house rules that expand this to making low-level spells at-will as well as you level up, as those spells become less relevant and you can afford infinite-use magic items or permanencies of them anyway, but the spells *really* aren't designed for this at all. You'd have to rewrite most of them from scratch to make this work, which is not a big deal if you're making a new system from scratch anyway but a major pain in the ass if you're just looking for a quick fix.

[Lephys]

I understand why Vancian magic is how it is. And I know a lot of people just don't know how to ration their spells. But, before you even hit that, you have the simple fact that a Fighter doesn't need to ration his effectiveness, and yet you can only memorize, what... 3 Lvl-1 spells per day? And even casting aside the fact that the D&D ruleset isn't about constantly fighting things 24-7, the fact remains that it doesn't make sense for you to just be restricted to never running into a combat encounter until you've leveled up some, OR to restricting the difficulty/numerousness of foes in a given combat encounter at low-level such that your 3 spells actually make a difference.

 

Really, the only valid reasoning I can see behind telling Wizards they can only do 3 things per day of a magical nature, and telling Fighters they can do infinite things per day, is the whole "we're making you weaker at the beginning because you're so strong later on." I understand why that sort of makes sense, in a way, but at the same time, it's not really a very good way to go about it, especially in a friggin' game, the rules of which were literally created from scratch and are supposed to support the enjoyment of the game. A) It sucks to just-plain suck in a pinch for several levels, and B) It actually kind of sucks to be stupid-powerful later on, compared to everyone else. And I'll add in the C), it sucks to have all your already-underbalanced uber-powerfulness and over-utility balanced out by hard counters like super-high magic resistance. What do you do at that point? You don't get to cleverly use your tools (magic) in a different way. You just get to use not-magic, or you get to suck.

 

Anywho... in the context of all this, it's hard not to address like 17 different little points throughout, heh. But, the very core of the point is that it's silly not to accommodate all classes' core abilities into the design of the game's ruleset. The level-0 spells being infini-use are a good start. You're still limited by one spell per turn (in D&D), so it's not like you can ever just annihilate 17 things in one turn with Ray of Frost. Yet, you still have a magical means of contributing to the effort at hand, even when you're "exhausted" of magic. The other thing being that, shy of taking non-lethal damage or something, I don't even think a Fighter can EVER become exhausted in any way. They can use their special attacks like 8,000 times a day if they want. But, apparently, a 1d4-damage magic missile is just wayyyyyy too exhausting to do more than like twice.

 

I very much like the approach P:E is taking. The more powerful/skilled you become with magic, the easier things become. Therefore, you start being able to do lesser things more and more often. Makes perfect sense, really. Plus wand blasts, etc. It doesn't feel like all your class-specific Wizardish capability comes from some magical finite bag of pixie dust that exists externally or something.

[Stun]

Anywho... in the context of all this, it's hard not to address like 17 different little points throughout, heh. But, the very core of the point is that it's silly not to accommodate all classes' core abilities into the design of the game's ruleset. The level-0 spells being infini-use are a good start. You're still limited by one spell per turn (in D&D), so it's not like you can ever just annihilate 17 things in one turn with Ray of Frost. Yet, you still have a magical means of contributing to the effort at hand, even when you're "exhausted" of magic. The other thing being that, shy of taking non-lethal damage or something, I don't even think a Fighter can EVER become exhausted in any way. They can use their special attacks like 8,000 times a day if they want. But, apparently, a 1d4-damage magic missile is just wayyyyyy too exhausting to do more than like twice.

That's not a very accurate assessment of matters.

 

First off, If we're dealing with a mage who's level is so low that he only has 1 copy of magic missile per day and its only firing off 1 missile, then at this point:

 

1) There's nothing stopping this mage from using his physical attacks (sling, quarterstaff), which he can also use 7000+ times per day and do the same amount of damage as his magic missile spell.

2) The fighter in question is also level 1, which means he's only doing about 1-8 damage with his sword and only attacking once per round as well. It's his ONLY option. And he can MISS (as opposed to the mage's magic missile, which doesn't)

 

As both gain levels, the differences begin to occur, but they're still not as wide and catostrophic as you're making them out to be.

 

A) As the mage increases in levels, he gets more spells. He gains the ability to cause damage to multiple opponents.... for extended periods of time, sometimes with just a single casting of a single spell. Additionally he acquires mage-based physicial tools (staves and wands that allow him to attack every single round with a magical projectile or effect... without using up his spell arsenal.)

B) The fighter advances as well. His sword is still doing 1-8 damage, but his skills allow him to augment this in various ways (more damage, more attacks per round, less chances to miss)

 

Of course, unless we're strictly talking about a PvP scenario, none of this matters. The assumption here is that we're dealing with a PARTY. That being the case, specific attack options for different classes not being completely equal doesn't really matter. Parties should be working together. in a Party, your mage and fighter should be complementing each other to eliminate all weaknesses. Ie. Your mage should be disabling your opponents so that your fighter can crush them with ease... and vise versa. Your fighter should be whittling down your opponents so that your mage can take them out en mass with a single AOE nuke.

 

Not sure why anyone would want to discard such a system in favor of one where mages are essentially no different in round-by-round melee as fighters or whatever, for no reason but to maintain the "equality and balance!" you believe is so vital.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@Micamo, in P&P the "15-minute workday" isn't much of a problem, as the DM can always adjust things situationally to keep things interesting. The rules bend as necessary. What's more, P&P D&D combat is so cumbersome that you can only have about one or maybe two combat encounters in a session anyway.

 

Computer RPG's don't have this kind of inherent flexibility, so exploits become that much more... exploitable.

 

The caster/fighter/rogue imbalance is a flaw in the rules, though; as JES pointed out somewhere, having to make up your own rules to make a game workable kind of indicates a problem with the game. (As an aside, is there a D&D campaign anywhere that doesn't have house rules?)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

(As an aside, is there a D&D campaign anywhere that doesn't have house rules?)

None that I know of. In 3.X D&D the most common was removing the XP penalty for multiclassing. To be honest, most P&P games I've played have used at least a few house rules.

[Stun]

Yeah, house rules are assumed. In fact, the core of the rule set is just that: a core. Everything else is meant to be up to the campaigners discretion. Says so in the DM's guide.

 

The official creation of D&D 3ed came about as a direct result of popular house rules gamers were using in 1st. and 2ed. D&D (Humans that can multi-class; universal exp tables; attribute point buy systems; etc.) For years and years and years, people were employing these things in national conventions even though they weren't the core mechanics of 2nd edition. TSR/Hasburo simply decided to make them official and encorporated them into the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

We've gotten pretty far off topic so, uhh, let's see, what else can I bitch about...

 

Oh yeah, here's something: The King of Shadows is a horrible, boring, ineffectual villain.

 

Let's start from the basics. Who (or what) is the King of Shadows?

 

"Well, thousands of years ago the ancient empires of Illefarn and Netheril were at war, and..."

 

No no no no no, that's not what I mean. I already know about Illefarn and Netheril from out of game sources, but within the context of this narrative, they're meaningless. They never come up and have no connection to anything except in regards to the origins of KoS. They provide no context for the events of the game. As far as I'm concerned they're about as satisfying an explanation as him being an awakened banana peel someone found in the trash.

 

Okay then, what kind of threat does KoS represent? What kind of powers does he have?

 

"He's a god-like being made of the pure essence of the shadow weave!"

 

This again? Again, within the context of the narrative, I have no idea what the shadow weave is. You might as well say he's powered by peanut butter for all it would matter.

 

What does he want to accomplish? What are his motivations for doing so?

 

"He wants to take over the world because the shadow weave is the essence of EVIL!!"

 

...Seriously? The main problem with KoS, I think, is that he's treated like a character by the writing but he's actually more like an abstract force of nature or a natural disaster. I think he'd have worked a thousand times better if he were instead presented as this magical surge spreading outward from the vale of meredelain and level draining everything to death, and your job is to stop its spread or reverse it. The real villain of the story would be someone who, for whatever reason, is trying to stop you because they want the spread to continue. It would even improve the origin story because you could say "He's the consequence of a mistake some wizards made a long time ago and look it doesn't really matter that's not what this story is about."

 

How do I stop or defeat him?

 

"Well you gotta find the 7 magic doodads and..."

 

Okay, what are these 7 magic doodads and why do I need them?

 

"They're the silver shards of the Sword of Gith, wielded by the legendary Githyanki general at..."

 

Yeah yeah yeah context problem again: This is something that would have fit more in Torment than there, because the Githyanki/Githzerai history thing actually mattered there. Here, it's meaningless. You're slapping on a convoluted backstory to make your MacGuffin sound more interesting than it actually is.

 

Why do I need the sword of gith?

 

"Uhh, it's really powerful?"

 

Would any item of equivalent power do? Why do I need the sword of gith specifically? Furthermore, why did it shatter during Ammon Jerro's battle at west harbor, why couldn't he kill KoS for good there? Why did I survive when one of the shards embedded itself in my heart?

 

"...I dunno."

 

*sigh* Of course. The problem here is that it's not the player defeating the bad guy. It's the DM's Ultimate Villain of Ultimate Badness versus the DM's Ultimate Artifact of Ultimate Power. It's masturbation: The player is just there to watch, and unless they stop playing or participating in the plot their input doesn't matter at all.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Micamo

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, Micamo, Micamo. You're wasting your talents. The NWN2 narrative is what's known as a "target-rich environment."

 

Good point here though: 

 

"Of course. The problem here is that it's not the player defeating the bad guy. It's the DM's Ultimate Villain of Ultimate Badness versus the DM's Ultimate Artifact of Ultimate Power. It's masturbation: The player is just there to watch, and unless they stop playing or participating in the plot their input doesn't matter at all."

 

This is a common mistake in cRPG's, and I hope one P:E manages to avoid.

 

Edit: and to add insult to injury, you don't actually NEED those doodads of ultimate power. Or OK, technically you do need the sword of Gith to close that portal, but the King of Shadows gets hurt just fine with any ol' weapon or spell you're packing, which pulls the rug out from under the whole thing. Okay, now I'm doing it too.

Edited June 29, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Jarmo]

Oh yeah, here's something: The King of Shadows is a horrible, boring, ineffectual villain.

 

 

To be fair, his origins are explained in game pretty thoroughly.

Motivation is left a bit ambiguous, whether he was evil to begin with is left unresolved.

[Micamo]

Oh, Micamo, Micamo. You're wasting your talents. The NWN2 narrative is what's known as a "target-rich environment."

But it's fun!

 

I've been considering doing a similar thread for Baldur's Gate. The thing is though I'd have to actually finish it to be able to critique it with honesty.

[Stun]

 

Oh, Micamo, Micamo. You're wasting your talents. The NWN2 narrative is what's known as a "target-rich environment."

I've been considering doing a similar thread for Baldur's Gate. The thing is though I'd have to actually finish it to be able to critique it with honesty.

 

Oh, I can give you a list a mile long of stuff that's wrong with Baldurs Gate 1. The game simply did not age gracefully. Still, for its time it was genre-blowingly awesome. But I don't see the "fun" in doing such a thing. We'd need specific context for such a discussion to be even remotely interesting. Such as: What can PE take or leave From BG1. Or.... if we were to recreate BG1 with improvements, what would we do.... Edited June 29, 2013 by Stun

[exodiark]

We've gotten pretty far off topic so, uhh, let's see, what else can I bitch about...

 

Oh yeah, here's something: The King of Shadows is a horrible, boring, ineffectual villain.

 

Let's start from the basics. Who (or what) is the King of Shadows?

 

"Well, thousands of years ago the ancient empires of Illefarn and Netheril were at war, and..."

 

No no no no no, that's not what I mean. I already know about Illefarn and Netheril from out of game sources, but within the context of this narrative, they're meaningless. They never come up and have no connection to anything except in regards to the origins of KoS. They provide no context for the events of the game. As far as I'm concerned they're about as satisfying an explanation as him being an awakened banana peel someone found in the trash.

 

Okay then, what kind of threat does KoS represent? What kind of powers does he have?

 

"He's a god-like being made of the pure essence of the shadow weave!"

 

This again? Again, within the context of the narrative, I have no idea what the shadow weave is. You might as well say he's powered by peanut butter for all it would matter.

Are you paying attention to the story? Let me help you.

 

This is explained thoroughly in the game:

 

> The Guardian was created to be the ultimate guardian for Illefarn.

> He was a hero who sacrificed his very self to become the perfect guardian, a protector with no pride or ambition. That's your who.

> He drew his power off the [Weave*] and was thought to be able to protect Illefarn forever.

> However, during his reign, the [Weave*] disappeared for an instant when Karsus tried to steal divinity from Mystryl, the then goddess of magic.

> Faced with a choice, either dying and leaving Illefarn unprotected or to turn to a darker alternative, the Guardian turned to the Shadow Weave as a new source of power, because he was programmed to protect Illefarn AT ALL COSTS. 

> But in doing so, he became a creature of darkness and shadow that leeched life from everything around him, called KoS. That's his power and you can even see it in-game.

 

> When the Illefarn people realized what had happened, they sought to destroy him, seeing that he had become corrupted and was destroying the very thing he was created to protect, with a failsafe called Ritual of Purification (them statues, you need it). I don't think these six powers need more exposition, basically KoS is a constructed golem which can be deconstructed by this 6 magicks. That's quite enough.

> When they attacked him, the Guardian (now the "King of Shadows") saw them as enemies, after all, he was the protector of Illefarn and anyone who attacked him was perceived to be an enemy of Illefarn, even if they wore the Illefarn colors. Keep in mind that KoS is ambitionless automaton now, it has blue and orange morality. And no, he doesn't want to take over the world, he just want to protect Illefarn, or what's left of it.

 

So KoS is not even "evil" since he has no morality. He leeched life because he used the wrong battery, and when people attacked him, he fought back because he was programmed to do it :|

 

> In the end he destroyed them all, but not before being driven into the Plane of Shadow and locked there for centuries.

> Now he seeks to return and to fulfill the very purpose he was created for, despite the fact the empire he was created to protect no longer exists and its enemies are gone as well, because he's a robot, a smart robot, but still a robot.

> Ammon fought him and failed

> Now it grew even stronger and threatened Neverwinter.

 

*[Weave] It's explained in-game that Weave is the source of magic, and they explained that the Weave is what makes the Guardian the Ultimate Guardian. Therefore Weave is a powerful sh*t. Dark Weave is dark powerful sh*t.

 

No, he's not a force of nature (you can't really defeat a force of nature, while you CAN defeat him), he's just a loose WMD from the past that's currently f*cking neverwinter right now. So yeah, the history is relevant and all your questions answered if you pay attention.

 

 

Why do I need the sword of gith?

 

"Uhh, it's really powerful?"

 

Would any item of equivalent power do? Why do I need the sword of gith specifically? Furthermore, why did it shatter during Ammon Jerro's battle at west harbor, why couldn't he kill KoS for good there? 

 

The answer is, it's not because it's powerful, it's simply because the SOG is the right tool for the job. Yes, I know you can craft badass sword, but it's no Sword of Gith as far as the story concerned. The Sword of Gith has no parallel, and you have to use it. NWN2 doesn't have a good story-gameplay integration, so I basically segregate it. The Sword is not important in the gameplay, but for the narrative it totally is.

 

And don't think that this is a bad thing. there are many cracker programs in the world, but the best way to penetrate any security is simply having the password (or the priviledge). SOG acts as the magic key in this story, In NWN2 it locked the portal and in MOTB it opened the trans-plane door.

 

And for your other question, it's because Ammon failed (Gasp! I know, characters can fail!). He had the sword but NO RITUAL OF PURIFICATIONS. which he didn't know at that time, that's why he failed.

In the battle, Ammon was losing and KoS destroyed the Silver Sword of Gith. Swords break in battles and yes, villains have right to do that.

 

Why did I survive when one of the shards embedded itself in my heart?

 

Because why not? A man can survive with a bullet in his head: http://gawker.com/5905830/world-record-holder-for-longest-living-person-with-bullet-in-head-dies

Your OC have f*ckton of luck it seems.

 

*sigh* Of course. The problem here is that it's not the player defeating the bad guy. It's the DM's Ultimate Villain of Ultimate Badness versus the DM's Ultimate Artifact of Ultimate Power. It's masturbation: The player is just there to watch, and unless they stop playing or participating in the plot their input doesn't matter at all.

 

This I agree with, but you could always, you know, join the KoS if you don't like it. You definitely get the better ending.

 

Edited June 29, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

The answer is, it's not because it's powerful, it's simply because the SOG is the right tool for the job. Yes, I know you can craft badass sword, but it's no Sword of Gith as far as the story concerned. The Sword of Gith has no parallel, and you have to use it.

Once. To close the portal. Which can't be closed by any other means. For no other reason than "because." Seriously, there is no explanation as to why the sword of Gith, and no other sword, and no other method, works for that purpose.

 

To close. A portal. Which is pretty much a basic magical technology in Faerun. There are portals all over the place. What's so special about this one that it can only be closed with the sword of Gith, and why the sword of Gith, when the Githyanki had frack all to do with the creation of the portal, the Guardian, or even the Weave? The Githyanki are a humanoid race formerly of some other prime material plane, currently residing on the astral plane. They have no special connection to the Shadow Weave, nor the Weave.

 

It makes no kind of sense, and has no kind of explanation.

 

NWN2 doesn't have a good story-gameplay integration, so I basically segregate it. The Sword is not important in the gameplay, but for the narrative it totally is.

NWN2 doesn't have good story, full stop.

 

And don't think that this is a bad thing. there are many cracker programs in the world, but the best way to penetrate any security is simply having the password (or the priviledge). SOG acts as the magic key in this story, In NWN2 it locked the portal and in MOTB it opened the trans-plane door.

But why??? Why is the SoG the "password" in your analogy? The Githyanki did not create the Guardian, nor the portal, nor anything related to it. Their only involvement with the KoS is that the KoS apparently raided their strongholds on the astral plane – which is yet another thing that doesn't make sense, since the KoS is supposed to be guarding Illefarn, which is on the Prime Material, not the astral. In fact, in the evil ending we find out that the KoS stops his invasion at the ancient borders of the Illefarn empire. What in the name of Mog was he doing fighting the Githyanki on the astral plane???

 

And for your other question, it's because Ammon failed (Gasp! I know, characters can fail!). He had the sword but NO RITUAL OF PURIFICATIONS. which he didn't know at that time, that's why he failed.

But you don't actually NEED the ritual of purification. As stated, I didn't use any of it a single time in my last playthrough. It doesn't even do anything particularly special; nothing that you can't do as well or better with the standard spell selection Elanee and Zhaeve have anyway. It's another big ol' DM-leading-you-by-the-nose thing with no internal logic to it. They didn't even bother making it mandatory to use it in the end battle – how hard could that have been, they already even had the statues in place?

 

Tangent – the end boss battle. They could've at least made that cohere with the rest of the story, with only tiny modifications. Instead of destroying the statues, you would've had to use each part of the Ritual on the appropriate statue; after that, the KoS would become vulnerable to attack but only with the Sword of Gith. At least that way all that bother with the sword and the ritual wouldn't have been completely pointless.

 

In the battle, Ammon was losing and KoS destroyed the Silver Sword of Gith. Swords break in battles and yes, villains have right to do that.

Oh come on. This isn't just any sword we're talking about. It's the silver sword of Gith. An artifact. A unique artifact. So powerful it has all these wack abilities even when reconstituted from about half the tiny shards it broke into. "It just broke, duh" makes no sense. That'd be like Sauron's Ring of Power getting destroyed by being accidentally stepped on when on its side. It would make sense if, say, the KoS is such a badass that it can shatter even an artifact weapon – but then it would make no sense that that very artifact weapon is supposed to be the only thing capable of hurting it. (Except, of course, in practice it's not, since any ol' magic sword will do the job just fine.)

 

Again, it doesn't make any sense. Massive plot hole.

 

I mean okay, The Lord of the Rings has the deus-ex-machina eagles ("why didn't they just fly Frodo and the Ring to Mordor and save everyone a lot of bother?") but that's just one thing in a story that mostly stays with its internal logic. The NWN2 story is just riddled with this thing. Target-rich environment.

 

(Uh. I wasn't even meaning to get into this, but you're actually defending this turd of a tale? I know twelve-year-olds who write better than this.)

[Christliar]

Like everyone said there is simply too much wrong with the vanilla nwn2. Not that I didn't enjoy it when it came out considering nwn1 is my favorite game ever, but after playing MotB (yes, the only good nwn2) it felt shallow and dreary. Too much mindless trudging through hoops, horrible camera and controls, boring sidequests, illogical end boss, flat characters, uninspired locales, wasted potential, irritatingly stupid AI etc. The only good bits are the trial (wasted, again, because of the asspull that is the trial by combat) and the stronghold (it had awesome moments and it gave you many options).

 

MotB on the other hand blew my mind, like Obsidian usually does. Safiya and Okku are kind of baggage, because they didn't really have anything to do with the main plot. Sure, Safiya is the Founder's spirit shard or whatever, but Safiya herself never does anything and her reasons for following you are "just because I don't have anything better to do". She just doesn't have a place in the narrative. I never used Okku that much and I sincerely don't know what he's supposed to contribute to the whole ordeal. For a bear spirit god he's certainly subtle and unmemorable and not once was it made a big deal that he's following you. The spirit eater mechanic is jarringly out of place with the rest of the gameplay. Storywise it makes sense, obviously, but gameplaywise it's just unnecessary.

 

Gann and Kaelyn, ohhh boy. Kaelyn's devotion against everyone and everything she knew being a celestial truly inspired me and I really felt that she's doing the right thing. The hypocrisy and blatant cruelty of the gods somehow mirrored my own bad experiences with organized religion. The reveal of her preparation of another crusade was kinda rushed, I felt, but other than that spot on. Gann is a love-or-hate character, because he's narcissistic and cynical, but underneath that he is a good person who knows what he is worth and knows where respect is due. Not to aloof and distant gods whose sole interest is to compare penises and toying with mortals in a way to have the biggest one of them all, but to actions and character. I read somewhere that he was supposed to be bisexual, but due to executive meddling that was canceled. I felt it fit him, because of the aforementioned qualities he respects. I can not speak for One-of-Many, because I never recruited him, but some day I should. The only thing I didn't like about ALL characters (maybe without one-of-many) was the constant daddy and mommy issues. Not ONE character had a different stroke (maybe except one-of-many). Kaelyn with her grandfather, Gann with his mother, Safiya with her mother, Okku with his ancestors.

 

The narrative structure was decently paced and you got to visit many unique places like the Skein and the Hag Coven, the City of Judgement, the shadow plane etc. They also felt like they belonged in the story, except the Wood Man. He didn't tell you anything that you couldn't have figured out and weren't blatantly told in the other places, especially by the Coven of Hags. Yeah, he helped you heal your spirit a bit, but that felt unnecessary. The ending was really rushed though, you step into the portal to the City of Judgement and lo! and behold the crusade is already underway and that was never truly explained, like they just waited there from when Kaelyn failed last time. I liked that you couldn't tear down the wall though, because for that first time you felt helpless in the grand schemes of the gods. You knew it was unjust, but you were powerless to stop it, like so many things in life. It also truly showed the divide between the power of the gods and of mortals.

 

The thing to take away from MotB is the allegories you can make between real life and the events and characters in the game. Also the pointing out of flaws in reasoning of the established norm like the wall of the faithless. The things not to take is the dissonance between some characters and the story, like Safiya and Okku who had no place in the narrative. The spirit eater mechanic and the influence system which just felt meta-gamey.

 

Micamo already ripped the OC a new one and it's spot on, so I don't have anything else to add. SoZ is neutral to me, it didn't really have anything to show and it didn't really have that much bad to be used as an example. I haven't played it all that much to give a more accurate summary of my thoughts, but I felt it did what it set out to do and that's fine. Although MotB is really, really awesome, the closer to perfection it got the more glaring the flaws became, but nothing is perfect. It was also heavily pushed down by the hand of executive meddling, but this time that isn't the case so I hope P:E can truly become what Obsidian want it to be and they always manage to amaze when they are at their best.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Christliar

[Stun]

Once. To close the portal. Which can't be closed by any other means. For no other reason than "because." Seriously, there is no explanation as to why the sword of Gith, and no other sword, and no other method, works for that purpose.

 

To close. A portal. Which is pretty much a basic magical technology in Faerun. There are portals all over the place. What's so special about this one that it can only be closed with the sword of Gith, and why the sword of Gith, when the Githyanki had frack all to do with the creation of the portal, the Guardian, or even the Weave? The Githyanki are a humanoid race formerly of some other prime material plane, currently residing on the astral plane. They have no special connection to the Shadow Weave, nor the Weave.

Ooh. I can answer this one. First off, the portal we're talking about is NOT a portal to the weave, or the shadow weave. It's a portal to the Astral plane. Which is a huge point. It means it can be damaged and even destroyed by Githyanki Silver Swords, who's very purpose (in D&D Lore, See: Fiend Folio for more info) is to Sever an astral traveler's connection to the astral realms. The game doesn't do a perfect job explaining this, although Aldenon DOES mention that Githyanki silver swords can cut an astral traveler's silver cord. And if you look at the ground carefully in the final battle with the Guardian, you can *see* a silver cord connecting him with the portal. Edited June 30, 2013 by Stun

[exodiark]

To close. A portal. Which is pretty much a basic magical technology in Faerun. There are portals all over the place. What's so special about this one that it can only be closed with the sword of Gith, and why the sword of Gith, when the Githyanki had frack all to do with the creation of the portal, the Guardian, or even the Weave? The Githyanki are a humanoid race formerly of some other prime material plane, currently residing on the astral plane. They have no special connection to the Shadow Weave, nor the Weave.

 

It makes no kind of sense, and has no kind of explanation.

Refer to what Stun says:

 

Ooh. I can answer this one. First off, the portal we're talking about is NOT a portal to the weave, or the shadow weave. It's a portal to the Astral plane. Which is a huge point. It means it can be damaged and even destroyed by Githyanki Silver Swords, who's very purpose (in D&D Lore, See: Fiend Folio for more info) is to Sever an astral traveler's connection to the astral realms. The game doesn't do a perfect job explaining this, although Aldenon DOES mention that Githyanki silver swords can cut an astral traveler's silver cord. And if you look at the ground carefully in the final battle with the Guardian, you can *see* a silver cord connecting him with the portal.

Ha! Where is your god now? the SOG is even explained in-game )

 

It's not a wikipedia explanation true, maybe it's best left that way? It's designed by the gods, so maybe how it works is incomprehensible to mortal minds? It's not the first a literature pulled something like this. Not everything have to be explained and all you need to know is that SOG is needed.

 

But you don't actually NEED the ritual of purification. As stated, I didn't use any of it a single time in my last playthrough. It doesn't even do anything particularly special; nothing that you can't do as well or better with the standard spell selection Elanee and Zhaeve have anyway. It's another big ol' DM-leading-you-by-the-nose thing with no internal logic to it. They didn't even bother making it mandatory to use it in the end battle – how hard could that have been, they already even had the statues in place?

You really need to read http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

Every games do this to a degree, only I admit that NWN2 did it too much. I hope PE is better in this regards. (See? I give criticisms too!)

 

The Ritual of Purification is needed to kill KoS because he was DESIGNED to BE DECONSTRUCTED that way, the story dictates that even if the gameplay doesn't reinforce it.

You don't like it, too bad. Besides, it isn't really that disjointed, you can defeat him without it, but you can defeat him EASIER (it's a throwaway slot-less spells anyway) with it. Makes sense, since you deconstructed him in the way his creators intended to.

 

If you think KoS fight is too easy and doesn't really fit the narrative, well, gameplay and story segregation!

Every game does this in their final boss fights.

 

Oh come on. This isn't just any sword we're talking about. It's the silver sword of Gith. An artifact. A unique artifact. So powerful it has all these wack abilities even when reconstituted from about half the tiny shards it broke into. "It just broke, duh" makes no sense. That'd be like Sauron's Ring of Power getting destroyed by being accidentally stepped on when on its side. It would make sense if, say, the KoS is such a badass that it can shatter even an artifact weapon – but then it would make no sense that that very artifact weapon is supposed to be the only thing capable of hurting it. (Except, of course, in practice it's not, since any ol' magic sword will do the job just fine.)

 

Yeah bro, the guy who whacked the sword is powered by the source of ****ing magic itself, directly. It's not by coincidence like you said, it's because Ammon's foe is too powerful.

And since when villains can't destroy their weaknesses? Skynet can upload itself to the Internet and made itself invulnerable, why not KoS?

 

I mean okay, The Lord of the Rings has the deus-ex-machina eagles ("why didn't they just fly Frodo and the Ring to Mordor and save everyone a lot of bother?") but that's just one thing in a story that mostly stays with its internal logic. The NWN2 story is just riddled with this thing. Target-rich environment.

Because Mordor is infested with enemies, that's just like saying, hey bro let's fly US fighter jet across China!

The reason why Frodo can be rescued by the eagle at the end it's because the orcs are drowned from the battles before.

 

 

(Uh. I wasn't even meaning to get into this, but you're actually defending this turd of a tale? I know twelve-year-olds who write better than this.)

 

I'm bored with games nowadays, still waiting for PE. Have free times to pick up some fight

Edited June 30, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

Ooh. I can answer this one. First off, the portal we're talking about is NOT a portal to the weave, or the shadow weave. It's a portal to the Astral plane. Which is a huge point. It means it can be damaged and even destroyed by Githyanki Silver Swords, who's very purpose (in D&D Lore, See: Fiend Folio for more info) is to Sever an astral traveler's connection to the astral realms. The game doesn't do a perfect job explaining this, although Aldenon DOES mention that Githyanki silver swords can cut an astral traveler's silver cord. And if you look at the ground carefully in the final battle with the Guardian, you can *see* a silver cord connecting him with the portal.

Oof. That makes even less sense.

 

The silver cord connects an astral traveler's astral body to his physical body. It cannot even exist on the Prime Material. If it did for the KoS, that's a major violation of D&D metaphysics.

 

Second, it doesn't make any sense to banish something to the Astral Plane. It's a transitive plane, connected to Prime Material planes and Outer Planes. It's pretty easy to get out.

 

I won't even bother addressing exodiark's post. It's all ex post facto rationalization of plot holes. Anyone can do that. The point is that in a competently constructed story you shouldn't have to. (Exception: intentionally surreal dream-like stories, following dream-like logic. NWN2 is not one of them.)

[Stun]

Oof. That makes even less sense.

 

The silver cord connects an astral traveler's astral body to his physical body. It cannot even exist on the Prime Material. If it did for the KoS, that's a major violation of D&D metaphysics.

Of course it can, and does, exist in both realities. It connects the physical with the projection. In other words, it must exist in both planes. The only rule that NWN2 broke here is that they made this cord visible. It's supposed to be completely INVISIBLE to everyone but an astral native.

 

Second, it doesn't make any sense to banish something to the Astral Plane. It's a transitive plane, connected to Prime Material planes and Outer Planes. It's pretty easy to get out.

True. Thankfully, you're not Banishing the KOS. You're destroying him. Astral travelers who get their cords cut Die.

 

 

In any case, I find it odd that with all of NWN2's blatant faults and shortcomings, that we'd focus on the nature of the KOS (and earlier, someone was focussing on Ammon Jerro). LOL 2 things they actually did Right!

Edited June 30, 2013 by Stun