What should a female breastplate really look like

[NerdBoner]

god everytime I see full plate armor i realize how ridiculous it not only looks but is for any adventurer to wear such nonsense while out in the field for weeks on end or dungeon diving...doubly so for females. I mean, weight aside you would likely die of heatsroke or dehydration long before a goblin can stick his spear through your visor.

 

A breast plate, AT MOST is the heaviest piece of armor anyone should carry unless they are a palace guard or gearing up for a single anticipated battle.

 

Cadegund is losing that metal skin and donning some boiled leather or light chainmail while in my party...hell, that damn musket of hers is already pretty suspect in the functionality department.

Edited April 12, 2013 by NerdBoner

[LadyCrimson]

god everytime I see full plate armor i realize how ridiculous it not only looks but is for any adventurer to wear such nonsense while out in the field for weeks on end or dungeon diving...doubly so for females. I mean, weight aside you would likely die of heatsroke or dehydration long before a goblin can stick his spear through your visor.

Yup. Who wants to wear all that armor outside of a more formalized battlefield? Wandering the forest swamp, hiking through the mountain passages, trying to sneak around in a dungeon. Probably can't climb a tree to get a bearing on your surroundings...not for me.

 

...but full plate does look cool/awesome, especially some of the crazier/wilder designs.

[NerdBoner]

 

god everytime I see full plate armor i realize how ridiculous it not only looks but is for any adventurer to wear such nonsense while out in the field for weeks on end or dungeon diving...doubly so for females. I mean, weight aside you would likely die of heatsroke or dehydration long before a goblin can stick his spear through your visor.

Yup. Who wants to wear all that armor outside of a more formalized battlefield? Wandering the forest swamp, hiking through the mountain passages, trying to sneak around in a dungeon. Probably can't climb a tree to get a bearing on your surroundings...not for me.

 

...but full plate does look cool/awesome, especially some of the crazier/wilder designs.

I tend to lean more on the aesthetic/fantasy side of things myself when it comes to heavy armors. I've seen some beautiful designs, impractical of course, but which would look great in some ceremony or on some extra-planar being or in a super high fantasy setting were trudging through swamps would be too passe...

[LadyCrimson]

Take that back! Trudging through the glorious swamps is never passe!

 

I love the stereotyped knights on armored horseback. It can be .. so majestic.

[Caerdon]

god everytime I see full plate armor i realize how ridiculous it not only looks but is for any adventurer to wear such nonsense while out in the field for weeks on end or dungeon diving...doubly so for females. I mean, weight aside you would likely die of heatsroke or dehydration long before a goblin can stick his spear through your visor.

 

A breast plate, AT MOST is the heaviest piece of armor anyone should carry unless they are a palace guard or gearing up for a single anticipated battle.

 

Cadegund is losing that metal skin and donning some boiled leather or light chainmail while in my party...hell, that damn musket of hers is already pretty suspect in the functionality department.

 

Yes, full plate armor worn by an "adventurer" is one of the most ridiculous things we see in fantasy games (and literature), and it's rarely questioned. Plate armor is an armor of war, and a traveller would never use one just for occasional protection.

 

In fact, the same is true of some weapons. A large two-handed sword, for example, is something you only see in battle, no one carries one with him at all times. There's no way you can carry one with you comfortably yet be able to draw it quickly. And what about shields? Do you really carry one in your hand at all times? And if you strap it to your back, how do you carry all the other stuff you need to carry with you: bedroll, food, some extra clothes..?

 

There's a lot to be said in favour of light armor and small weapons. Unfortunately it's difficult to model all their advantages in a game.

 

P.S.

Here's an interesting idea: make it impossible for a solo character to use a full plate armor. The fact is that you don't put that kind of armor on by yourself.

[Keyrock]

While the points that an adventurer would never actually wear plate armor and it being only used in formal battles are completely correct, games are games, and they should be fun, first and foremost.  I like realism as much as the next guy, but there's a point when realism becomes cumbersome and steps on fun's toes.  If people want to roleplay their characters to reflect as much realism as possible, I say do it by all means, more power to you.  Don't wear plate armor in the wild, don't carry extra weapons and armor with you for switching armor/weapon sets to suit the situation (what person would realistically carry an extra sword, shield, and armor into the woods with them?).  I'm all for players limiting themselves to play a certain style, but I'm vehemently against the game forcing those limits on you.  There's plate armor in games because it looks cool and players want to use it.  Games allow you to have armor/weapon sets to streamline gameplay and expand tactical decisions.  Characters have 20 or so inventory slots to streamline gameplay (otherwise you would have the frustration of either leaving loot behind or having to make several trips back and forth).

 

Realism is great, but it will always be secondary to fun in my book.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Keyrock

[Sigwald]

As people have already pointed out, armor was never skin tight, not even remotely. There is at least 5'' air space between the chest and the plate Armor, when you get hit with a blunt weapon the armor deforms and absorbs the energy instead of directly redirecting the force to your bones and breaking them. You also need some space so your chest can expand and you can breathe.

 

Also, a knight with a completely dented chest plate that touches his chest cannot breathe, something to avoid during combat, and a popular tactic used against knights when using blunt weapons.

So, with 5'' of air space most women should be able to wear the armor without any problems.-

 

So, how do I want female breatsplates to look like in PE? Like any other standard breast plate.

 

Examples:

 

 

 

Well, this painting is from XIXth century, at that time they "romanticized" a bit too much their vision of history.

 

You could even say the romantic school was the heroic fantasy writers of their time. So don't pay too much attention to this painting. By the wat, I doubt Jeanne d'Arc was wearing this kind of modern armor during the end of the 100 years war.

[Shadowmant]

I wasn't stating it had to be full plate armour, just simply a breastplate =P

 

Some other good points were made.  Other proportions such as shoulder width and waist size are pretty different and would need to be taken into account.  Could changes in these proportions possibly negitvely impact the shape of the armour and need to be compensated for?

 

Osvir made the comment "You are comparing 2000'ish insights with late 1500/early 1600'ish insights."

 

I would say that in a world where woman have been part of the common soldiery for hundreds of years their insight may actually exceed ours since women in the soldiery is pretty new.

[moridin84]

Bikini armour is obviously too far but I think women should get more "feminine" armour. 

 

Fanservice isn't the only reason that women's armour tends to be different from males (e.g. Mass Effect). It's also because women (the ones playing the game) actually like looking "feminine" and because it makes them visually "interesting". 

Edited April 12, 2013 by moridin84

[Merlkir]

The idea of how ridiculous wearing armour for adventuring is, that's been discussed in depth in other threads. However, I'd like to add that weight was not necessarily a major issue. A man in armour is quite mobile and a trained individual can wear armour all day and not die from exhaustion. (after all, armour worn by modern soldiers weighs the same, if not slightly more than medieval armour did)

 

It's just not how it was done. A) because adventurers in the fantasy sense didn't really exist B) because armour is a luxury item, if you're not expecting to be in battle, wearing it just doesn't make sense. (it's like a sports car, you want to keep it in good condition and not wear it out too much by driving it to the shops every day)

Another reason why it's not entirely practical for dungeon delving - it's quite loud. :D 

[Dwarfare]

Hm, what should a female's breastplate look like?

 

In my opinion, it should look like a breastplate.  Armor is fairly unisex (aside from the totally necessary requirement of massive codpieces, of course!), though historically it's been mostly males wearing it, of course.  With the focus not so much on complimenting the figure of the one wearing it (though more expensive armors were decently tailored/smithed to proper proportions with some embellishments (which detracted from their actual functional purpose of turning aside blades rather than helping them catch and pierce)), the real practical focus of the armor was to keep you from catching a mild case of death upon the battlefield.  Of course in a fantasy RPG, developers will want to pretty it up (and rightly so, as I see it), but function should take precedence over form.  Unless you're ridiculously busty, normal armor ought to work well enough.

 

At least, I think we're past the days when female armor was inversely proportional in protection offered compared to amount of material used (though this still holds true in some MMOs).  In that scenario, the most impervious, unbelievably effective and magnificent armor gifted from on high, levitating down to the land on a beam of light would be two rings about about a hand's span apart and connected by a bit of red string to tie about the chest.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Dwarfare

[Inq]

Just make it the same as the "male" version.

[Lephys]

Because of their whole one-size-fits-all approach to the armor modeling they talked about in that Update 35-or-so, I'd bet that the female armor will mechanically work the same with either gender (the exact same suit/piece of armor will be equippable by both mans and womens), but with that being said, I really see no harm in having the appearance change a bit to better fit the female physiology, regardless of how functional it may or may not be (since the game code won't be representing the exact functionality of the precise size/shape of armor components, anyway).

 

After all, it'll already be resizing itself to fit the physiological variance between races, so why not genders? *le shrug*

 

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members? The same goes for the race differences. How do you tell which is your male Dwarf and which is your male Orlan, if the armor all looked exactly the same no matter who was wearing it?

[Calmar]

I think the setup is clothes > padding > chain (beneath weak-points in plate) > Plates. Breasts, except maybe for extremely large ones, fit nicely into breatsplates made to be worn by men.

[Caerdon]

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members?

 

Why is that even necessary? Why is gender such a defining trait that it's super important to tell a man from a woman at a glance? Why is it OK that you can't immediately tell two male party members from each other, yet confusing a man with a woman must never, ever happen - even if it would happen in real life?

[Osvir]

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members? The same goes for the race differences. How do you tell which is your male Dwarf and which is your male Orlan, if the armor all looked exactly the same no matter who was wearing it?

 

 

If it wouldn't be too much work, customizing the color (Specifically talking about the Color Palette underneath the [Right-Ring Slot] and to the right of the [shield Slot]) which allows you to change "Major Color" and "Minor Color" at any point in the game really helps telling the characters apart. Looking at Update #49, that^ might not be necessary

(it looks like you'll be able to tell characters apart pretty easily as it is).

Edited April 13, 2013 by Osvir

[Keyrock]

I kind of like my male and female characters to be clearly distinguishable from each other, realism be damned.  That's just me, though.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Keyrock

[Inq]

I kind of like my male and female characters to be clearly distinguishable from each other, realism be damned.  That's just me, though.

The portraits aren't enough for you?

[Lephys]

 

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members?

 

Why is that even necessary? Why is gender such a defining trait that it's super important to tell a man from a woman at a glance? Why is it OK that you can't immediately tell two male party members from each other, yet confusing a man with a woman must never, ever happen - even if it would happen in real life?

 

I dunno. You'll have to ask the player who's controlling you and 5 other people, in the game of Real Life, why he has full control over your every action, yet has to guess for a bit, select you, THEN go "Ohhhh, that's Tom... I wanted to select Cedric," then select someone else, just because you thought there was absolutely no reason for you to be easily discernable from one another.

 

And you totally missed the point. You want to be able to tell two male party members apart, also (when did I say otherwise?). How do you do this? Based on their visual properties. Why is gender such a defining trait? I dunno. Ask genetics why it shaped female skeletons, muscle structures, and organs differently than male counterparts.

 

 

I kind of like my male and female characters to be clearly distinguishable from each other, realism be damned.  That's just me, though.

The portraits aren't enough for you?

 

Portraits aren't running around the screen, waiting for you to drag a box around them and command them without having to first click on some piece of UI, then look for a selection circle, just to tell who's who.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Lephys

[Keyrock]

I agree with everything Lephys wrote.  I like realism, but there's a point at which realism becomes cumbersome and takes away from my enjoyment of the game.  That's where I draw the line.  I'm not looking for sexualized female characters, or male ones for that matter, with the exception of where it would actually make sense, a harlot for example.  I'm not looking for Red Sonja or Witchblade.  Still, I'd like my female characters to look at least a little feminine, even when covered in armor.

[Caerdon]

 

 

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members?

 
Why is that even necessary? Why is gender such a defining trait that it's super important to tell a man from a woman at a glance? Why is it OK that you can't immediately tell two male party members from each other, yet confusing a man with a woman must never, ever happen - even if it would happen in real life?

 
I dunno. You'll have to ask the player who's controlling you and 5 other people, in the game of Real Life, why he has full control over your every action, yet has to guess for a bit, select you, THEN go "Ohhhh, that's Tom... I wanted to select Cedric," then select someone else, just because you thought there was absolutely no reason for you to be easily discernable from one another.

And you totally missed the point. You want to be able to tell two male party members apart, also (when did I say otherwise?). How do you do this? Based on their visual properties. Why is gender such a defining trait? I dunno. Ask genetics why it shaped female skeletons, muscle structures, and organs differently than male counterparts.

I missed the point?

I have nothing against women looking feminine or having specific female plate armor in the game. I simply find that argument strange.

Let me recap: you brought up the example (made by Obsidian) of six warriors wearing plate armor, the question being how to tell the women apart from men. My point is: why is gender specifically so important? I want to be able to tell Tom from Cedric, not just to divide people into men and women. (Gender typically doesn't even affect gameplay, unlike traits like class and race.)

There could be so many ways to differentiate bewteen two characters: physical size and build, color and style of clothing and armor, different equipment, different selection circles... So why is it so important to make the look of armor depend on gender? You said it yourself that male and female skeletons are different, so women wearing a plate male already look different from men wearing plate armor, likely being shorter and slenderer.

 

So, to answer your original question: all my six wearers of plate armor are going to be using different weapons, they will be wearing different colors and they will have different physical builds. They might even wear different style of plate armor. That's how I tell them apart - not by looking at their boobs.

[rjshae]

[Lephys]

I missed the point?

I have nothing against women looking feminine or having specific female plate armor in the game. I simply find that argument strange.

 

Let me recap: you brought up the example (made by Obsidian) of six warriors wearing plate armor, the question being how to tell the women apart from men. My point is: why is gender specifically so important? I want to be able to tell Tom from Cedric, not just to divide people into men and women. (Gender typically doesn't even affect gameplay, unlike traits like class and race.)

 

There could be so many ways to differentiate bewteen two characters: physical size and build, color and style of clothing and armor, different equipment, different selection circles... So why is it so important to make the look of armor depend on gender? You said it yourself that male and female skeletons are different, so women wearing a plate male already look different from men wearing plate armor, likely being shorter and slenderer.

 

So, to answer your original question: all my six wearers of plate armor are going to be using different weapons, they will be wearing different colors and they will have different physical builds. They might even wear different style of plate armor. That's how I tell them apart - not by looking at their boobs.

 

*Nods*. Miss the point you did. I'll keep this brief (for once):

 

A) I said you should be able to tell males from females, just as you should be able to tell males from males and females from females. In other words, to use your own line of interrogation, why should you be able to tell males from males and females from females, all wearing the same equipment, and not be able to tell males from females and females from males?

 

B) I'd like to see you extract a quote from this thread, authored by me, in which I state that we should be able to tell females apart from males "by looking at their boobs." The discrepancy between what you're arguing against and what I posted might explain why you find "my" argument so strange.

[Sensuki]

I find it a bit sad that these are the most popular discussions on here

[Caerdon]

 

 

I missed the point?

 

I have nothing against women looking feminine or having specific female plate armor in the game. I simply find that argument strange.

 

Let me recap: you brought up the example (made by Obsidian) of six warriors wearing plate armor, the question being how to tell the women apart from men. My point is: why is gender specifically so important? I want to be able to tell Tom from Cedric, not just to divide people into men and women. (Gender typically doesn't even affect gameplay, unlike traits like class and race.)

 

There could be so many ways to differentiate bewteen two characters: physical size and build, color and style of clothing and armor, different equipment, different selection circles... So why is it so important to make the look of armor depend on gender? You said it yourself that male and female skeletons are different, so women wearing a plate male already look different from men wearing plate armor, likely being shorter and slenderer.

 

So, to answer your original question: all my six wearers of plate armor are going to be using different weapons, they will be wearing different colors and they will have different physical builds. They might even wear different style of plate armor. That's how I tell them apart - not by looking at their boobs.

*Nods*. Miss the point you did. I'll keep this brief (for once):

 

A) I said you should be able to tell males from females, just as you should be able to tell males from males and females from females. In other words, to use your own line of interrogation, why should you be able to tell males from males and females from females, all wearing the same equipment, and not be able to tell males from females and females from males?

 

B) I'd like to see you extract a quote from this thread, authored by me, in which I state that we should be able to tell females apart from males "by looking at their boobs." The discrepancy between what you're arguing against and what I posted might explain why you find "my" argument so strange.

 

 

A) You raised the question on how tell, "at a glance", female party members from male party members. My whole point the entire time has been this: why is gender so important? Of course I want to be able to recognize my party members. But why is it particularly important to see the gender of a character (clad in a full plate armor!) at a glance?

 

Do you still not understand what I'm saying? This is what you wrote: "Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members?" That question implies that it's especially important to see a character's gender at a glance. I'm asking: why?

 

B) You really don't get why I was referring to boobs? This thread is about female breastplates. In this context, what you wrote suggests that female armor should be more feminine in shape so we would be able to differentiate between female and male characters. My reference to boobs simply meant that it's not the shape of the breastplate (i.e. gender) that allows me to tell one character from another. Seriously, you should read that part again.

 

I'm not saying that the physical characteristics due to gender aren't one of many traits that help you recognize a character. I'm also not saying that male and female armor shouldn't look different in the game. I'm just asking why is immediately recognizing a character's gender so important that it should affect the design of plate armors in the game?

 

I've now asked the same question many times, in many forms. You have every right to keep not answering it, of course. And others are perfectly welcome to answer it, too.