Idea: Link stats with gameplay for pickpocketing

[JFSOCC]

The idea is simple but it adds a little gameplay to pickpocket. Instead of having your skill level in pickpocket determine is it's a success or fail, let it determine how long it is before someone notices a pickpocket.

 

IE: You approach a victim, you press pickpocket, and you must rush out of range before it would get noticed. The time you have before it gets noticed is based on your skill level. So the higher your skill the more leisurely your attempts become.

 

Except harder targets require more time pickpocketing.

 

You've made pickpocket into a game, and the ease of it is determined by stats, everyone wins.

[AGX-17]

....So you're saying that if your skill goes up it becomes easier? How is this different from nearly every other pickpocketing mechanic in games? It's not really a "game" if "low skill" means you have to run X distance away to be successful. You're just throwing away all possibility that an NPC could be perceptive and/or dextrous and catch you in the act in the first place.

 

The player honestly shouldn't be able to even see what's in the inventory of someone they're pickpocketing. How can you rummage through someone's entire inventory without them noticing all their belongings jostling around and the guy squatting right next to them? Why would they stop so you can check their inventory? Politeness? Picking a pocket in reality is about making off with a wallet or some cash or other small goods. It's opportunism, not strategically planned heavy equipment transit logistics.

 

Aside from that, it's not picking a pocket if you grab the enchanted greatsword off of some brute warrior's back and make a run for it. And he's going to notice and give chase. You might as well just attack people in the streets and steal their stuff when they're unconscious/dead.

Edited March 23, 2013 by AGX-17

[JFSOCC]

....So you're saying that if your skill goes up it becomes easier? How is this different from nearly every other pickpocketing mechanic in games? It's not really a "game" if "low skill" means you have to run X distance away to be successful. You're just throwing away all possibility that an NPC could be perceptive and/or dextrous and catch you in the act in the first place.

 

The player honestly shouldn't be able to even see what's in the inventory of someone they're pickpocketing. How can you rummage through someone's entire inventory without them noticing all their belongings jostling around and the guy squatting right next to them? Why would they stop so you can check their inventory? Politeness? Picking a pocket in reality is about making off with a wallet or some cash or other small goods. It's opportunism, not strategically planned heavy equipment transit logistics.

 

Aside from that, it's not picking a pocket if you grab the enchanted greatsword off of some brute warrior's back and make a run for it. And he's going to notice and give chase. You might as well just attack people in the streets and steal their stuff when they're unconscious/dead.

For once I wish people would read before they have their judgement ready.

First off, tell me where I said you'd be rummaging through someone's inventory?

You bump into someone and 10 seconds later he realises his purse is gone. If the bump is sooft it might take him longer because it's only after he notices the missing weight.

 

And a more difficult target, say someone on alert, would be harder to pick. just let the skill take some time, maybe with an animation. this way harder targets, more time needed, and you can scale the skill level needed as a player progressess while still letting him feel he's improved since he can see his skill work well on those with rewards which after a while hardly matter, but at first were needed.

 

Edit: Oh right, I should have known it was you who would piss vinegar and try to desperately find fault with it. AGX always negative.

Edited March 24, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Lephys]

I like the idea. I will say that your use of "stats" in the thread subject, then mainly "skill" in the body is slightly confusing, in so far as the details go. I get the general idea, though, and I likes it. I likes it a lot.

 

It got me thinking... what if you didn't really get to choose what you pickpocketed? I mean, we're talking about obviously not using the "I get to look through their entire inventory at my leisure" system, so what if you don't really know what they have, but your character can take the easiest thing he can get his hands on?

 

Here's an example:

 

If your skill is, say 15, then you might have to pickpocket someone 10 times in order to get some piece of jewelry off of them. And like, you said, the lower your skill, the harder it would be to pickpocket them 10 times without coming back to them later. And, if your skill is 80, maybe you take all their rings off their hand in the first go, as well as having it go unnoticed for 20 seconds instead of 4 or 5. Or maybe you easily take their whole coinpurse. Or maybe you take a dagger out of a sheath at their belt, etc.

 

I'm just trying to play off of the whole "You always succeed at pickpocketing" thing.

 

The alternative would be that you DO get kind of a game-pausing interface to "look through their inventory," but it would only represent the things they happen to be carrying that your character, with his given skill/stats, is capable of pickpocketing. So, if they have 100 gold coins, and a ruby, and an emerald, and a dagger, and an amulet, and your skill is low, maybe the inventory interface only lists "30 gold coins" (it can be abstractly assumed they have some coinage in one pocket, and some in a coinpurse, and some in another pouch, etc.).

 

You could even do things like have SOME people who carry coinpurses (which are easier to take than things from pockets and sheathes, as they need only be cut free and are externally attached to the belt rather than being up against the body), and others who don't carry coinpurses. So, maybe with low skill, you could only rob people who carry coinpurses. As you work your way up, you can start filching from pockets and sheathes. Eventually, you can take bracelets from arms and rings from fingers, maybe even necklaces from necks? *shrug*. Queue balancing, heh.

 

Oh, the possibilities. 8P

[Ffordesoon]

We discussed this on the Wasteland 2 boards a couple months back, and someone (I forget who, or if it was even a single person) came up with a really good idea for it. I don't remember the exact idea, but I do recall that it was meant to simulate the grab-it-and-go nature of real pickpocketing. Like, you would get more proficient at guessing what people had in their pockets as you picked more pockets, or something, but you'd start out just guessing, or something.

 

I'll go look for that thread. It might be useful.

[AGX-17]

 

 

....So you're saying that if your skill goes up it becomes easier? How is this different from nearly every other pickpocketing mechanic in games? It's not really a "game" if "low skill" means you have to run X distance away to be successful. You're just throwing away all possibility that an NPC could be perceptive and/or dextrous and catch you in the act in the first place.

 

The player honestly shouldn't be able to even see what's in the inventory of someone they're pickpocketing. How can you rummage through someone's entire inventory without them noticing all their belongings jostling around and the guy squatting right next to them? Why would they stop so you can check their inventory? Politeness? Picking a pocket in reality is about making off with a wallet or some cash or other small goods. It's opportunism, not strategically planned heavy equipment transit logistics.

 

Aside from that, it's not picking a pocket if you grab the enchanted greatsword off of some brute warrior's back and make a run for it. And he's going to notice and give chase. You might as well just attack people in the streets and steal their stuff when they're unconscious/dead.

For once I wish people would read before they have their judgement ready.

First off, tell me where I said you'd be rummaging through someone's inventory?

You bump into someone and 10 seconds later he realises his purse is gone. If the bump is sooft it might take him longer because it's only after he notices the missing weight.

 

And a more difficult target, say someone on alert, would be harder to pick. just let the skill take some time, maybe with an animation. this way harder targets, more time needed, and you can scale the skill level needed as a player progressess while still letting him feel he's improved since he can see his skill work well on those with rewards which after a while hardly matter, but at first were needed.

 

Edit: Oh right, I should have known it was you who would piss vinegar and try to desperately find fault with it. AGX always negative.

 

 

I always read posts. That's how I know you've literally just reiterated the fact that you're proposing a duplicate of existing pickpocketing mechanics from other games (player skill, player attributes vs. target attributes and possibly spatial orientation and lighting.) You're taking the norm and presenting it as a novel idea when it isn't. If you don't want your ideas exposed to criticism, don't tell anyone about them. That'd be a rather more effective stratagem than crying and making ad hominem attacks while snot bubbles out of your nose in comical fashion.

 

And you apparently don't know what the purpose of organizing writing into paragraphs is for. I started a new paragraph to air my own opinion on pickpocketing concepts. Nowhere in my own follow-up thoughts on pickpocketing did I deal with your idea. Not everything is about you.

Edited March 25, 2013 by AGX-17

[Lephys]

I always read posts. That's how I know you've literally just reiterated the fact that you're proposing a duplicate of existing pickpocketing mechanics from other games (player skill, player attributes vs. target attributes and possibly spatial orientation and lighting.) You're taking the norm and presenting it as a new, original idea.

Ehh... in a lot of games, you can actually fail at the pickpocketing action, itself. JFSOCC is proposing that, instead of failing to pickpocket, the effects of your success are limited by your skill/stats. Most notably, even if you suck terribly at pickpocketing, you still have SOME time to take something from a target, then slip away without being chased down or arrested/attacked, even if you only have about 3 seconds to start out with. What this means is that you'll have to stick to targets that, say, hang out around or walk right past shady alleys, because you'll need to slip away quickly.

 

And I don't believe he ever said "No one has ever thought of this idea before! 8D!", so criticizing that is utterly pointless. For what it's worth.

[Ffordesoon]

Admittedly, I too am struggling to see where JFSOCC's idea differs from the pickpocketing mechanics in many other games. I swear I've played at least one RPG with that exact mechanic.

 

I don't think it's a bad idea, necessarily. I think it is peachy keen, in fact. But I do have to concede to AGX that it didn't strike me as very original when I read it.

 

Then again, it could be one of those ideas that's so obvious that I've made up a bunch of games that use it in my head. Or maybe I'm not grasping the subtle nuances of the idea.

 

In any case, the idea isn't invalid simply because it's been done before.

[JFSOCC]

Well there is not an original idea in the world, but when I posted it, I considered it an original take. Still if other games have it, can you tell me, does it work well there?

[Ffordesoon]

I... think so?

 

As I said, I can't recall which games do what you're talking about, so...

[forfs]

The player honestly shouldn't be able to even see what's in the inventory of someone they're pickpocketing. How can you rummage through someone's entire inventory without them noticing all their belongings jostling around and the guy squatting right next to them? Why would they stop so you can check their inventory? Politeness? Picking a pocket in reality is about making off with a wallet or some cash or other small goods. It's opportunism, not strategically planned heavy equipment transit logistics.

 

[Ffordesoon]

Here you go:

 

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2464

 

Worth reading the whole thread, but b0rsuk's idea is the one I was talking about.

 

Oh, and the picture at the beginning that doesn't show up is the one forfs just posted, so don't worry about it.

[Hormalakh]

It's hilarious how unrelated the wasteland post is to JFSOCC's idea. I haven't seen this idea used before, to be quite honest. Generally speaking, most pickpockets are simple pass/fails.

 

It seems to me that JFSOCC is saying that with a pickpocket, you'd always be found out (or the person will always find out) but it sort of becomes a dice roll as to whether or not they find out its you based on your skill.

 

Fallout 1 and 2 didn't allow window shopping. But the pickpocket there was just a basic skill check (a tad bit random if I'm not mistaken). 

 

I would take your idea further and say that once you pick a pocket and the person finds out, he will accuse the closest individual to him. If that is you, then watch out. He might accuse an NPC nearby and in that case, perhaps he'll call the guards on him or start a fight with him, etc. If you're closer, that individual would be you.

[Lephys]

I would take your idea further and say that once you pick a pocket and the person finds out, he will accuse the closest individual to him. If that is you, then watch out. He might accuse an NPC nearby and in that case, perhaps he'll call the guards on him or start a fight with him, etc. If you're closer, that individual would be you.

I would take your taking of his idea even further even further and add in some kind of chance (either based on Pickpocket, itself, or just based on your ability to remain undetected) that they know it's you even though you're not the closest person.

 

A thought: What if, instead of having the amount of time you have to get away be the variable, you make the skill-dependent variable the minimum safe distance you must reach for that person to not pick you out of the immediate crowd? Skill of 20? You'd better put 30 feet between you and the victim as swiftly as possible (I would think things that break line-of-sight, such as corners and pillars, would work, instead of you HAVING to travel a set distance from the victim no matter what). Skill of 90? You can stroll a few feet away, and that person's not going to ever suspect you.

 

Another alternative (along the same lines) would be to always have the same "You look suspicious!" radius around the victim, but allow the player to travel at faster speeds without drawing suspicion while fleeing that radius, as their skill increases. So, skill of 20, you move at a walk (again, meaning you'd have to pickpocket from people in strategic locations, such as near alleyways or things you could hide behind, at the very least). Skill of 90? You can move almost at a full sprint, yet so fluidly that no one really thinks much of it.

 

Then, there's always some combination of the aforementioned ways of doing it (including the original time-limit-before-person-notices-the-theft factor).

 

*Shrug*. Just a thought.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lephys

[JFSOCC]

It's hilarious how unrelated the wasteland post is to JFSOCC's idea. I haven't seen this idea used before, to be quite honest. Generally speaking, most pickpockets are simple pass/fails.

 

It seems to me that JFSOCC is saying that with a pickpocket, you'd always be found out (or the person will always find out) but it sort of becomes a dice roll as to whether or not they find out its you based on your skill.

 

Fallout 1 and 2 didn't allow window shopping. But the pickpocket there was just a basic skill check (a tad bit random if I'm not mistaken). 

 

I would take your idea further and say that once you pick a pocket and the person finds out, he will accuse the closest individual to him. If that is you, then watch out. He might accuse an NPC nearby and in that case, perhaps he'll call the guards on him or start a fight with him, etc. If you're closer, that individual would be you.

Yes! that's what I meant! Though as for blaming the nearest person, I dunno, I think that could lead to weird situations, like someone accusing his wife of stealing his wedding ring, because she was standing beside him.

[JFSOCC]

And I never once did state that you'd be able to see the intended victims inventory.

[Lephys]

...you'd be able to see the intended victims inventory.

Ah-HAH! See! You're talking about seeing the intended victim's inventory! u_u...

 

I WIN AT FORUMS!

 

/jest...

[Ffordesoon]

@Hormalakh:

 

I didn't say it was related. I said it was relevant to and potentially useful in a discussion of pickpocketing mechanics.

[Jarmo]

I like the skill determines what you can see and try to steal idea quite a bit.

A coin purse or a dagger in a sheath hanging in the belt should be pretty easy to spot and try, a letter from an inside pocket that much harder.

 

And I really dislike the standard, roll and see what you got.

Dammit, I was going for the coin purse in his belt but accidentally grabbed a pear from his backpack instead.

 

A timer. Wouldn't be out of the question I guess.

But not one that'd automatically point at you. You should be able to pinch something and remain above suspicion. 

Realistically, a lot of pickpocketing is done in a way you immediately notice someone grabbed your wallet,

and that someone is obviously the guy who bumped into you and is now running away with your wallet in hand. 20 feet headstart is all.

 

But it might fit a single character assasins creed or GTA style game better, run away and lose the followers.

Or knife the fool if he follows you into the alley...

[Lephys]

A timer. Wouldn't be out of the question I guess.

But not one that'd automatically point at you. You should be able to pinch something and remain above suspicion. 

Realistically, a lot of pickpocketing is done in a way you immediately notice someone grabbed your wallet,

and that someone is obviously the guy who bumped into you and is now running away with your wallet in hand. 20 feet headstart is all.

 

But it might fit a single character assasins creed or GTA style game better, run away and lose the followers.

Or knife the fool if he follows you into the alley...

 

Well... my thoughts on that are that I'd rather not see a %chance of being identified as the culprit, because that would instantly result in 90% of people just retrying the pickpocket from a save until the chance lands in the right spot. So, the two simplest factors that make the most sense to deal with are (1) the amount of time it takes for people to start looking for you and (2) your distance from the target when they try to find you. Both of which are quite flexibly variable. With that much variation (you could have anywhere from 1 second of time to 30 seconds of time, and anywhere from a 30-foot radius to a 3-foot radius), I'd much rather see a "you either managed to get far enough away in the appropriate amount of time or you didn't" check, over some kind of 17-factor check on your chances of being spotted or picked out of the crowd. It's a situation where I think a bit of abstracted simplification outweighs the minimal benefits (even though they'd be awesome in many ways) of extra verisimilitude/complexity.

 

Granted, it's not as if it's impossible to go beyond a simple timer/radius without drastically overcomplicating things. But, as it's a party-based game, I would avoid any kind of generally-repeatable "they found me out but now I need to lose them in the streets" scenario. That Assassin's Creed style chase just seems a little out of place in P:E, at least as a basic game mechanic rather than a specific story situation or event.

 

Not implying that you're arguing the opposite. Just my thoughts on what was mentioned.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lephys

[okkoko]

okay you a rogue and you in a brand new city

 

you decided walking around pickpocketing the the ones of this new city

 

to make this skill work in a game well there have to be a punishment for failing to pickpocketing others if you try it out

 

but do it have to be so sever that guards come running all the time you fail all you do is just reloading from where you  at before the critical fail.

 

So now how to best implement punishment for failing in using skill like pickpocketing ?

 

 

Here is my suggestion on how the skill could work..

 

you get items from a list if you roll

 

------------------------------------------------------

pickpocketing victim  got 25/175 gold coins the rest of valuable is in a bank or other safe place the coins the victims have on them will refresh each week

------------

When you fail in pickpocketing there is a chance the victims will find out the bigger a fail the more know-en you be amongst other potential victems and the harder  it get to pickpocketing them...

------------------------

if you fail several times the guard will come demanding a fine els you be jailed or have to fight you way out of it and hide it out

and a bounty is put on you head . after a time it will be removed or lowered

---------------------------

 

 

not even my idea other prob thought of it already but what els could work personally i am playing nwn 2 right now and slight of hand is rather lame not much skill activity in it

 

if you have any idea let me hear behaves we are lucky and the DEV will hear or pleas .ty for your time

[Morgulon the Wise]

Pickpocketing Level < Alert Level ---> chance of getting caught + incease of AL after trying rises.

PL<<<AL ---> chance of getting slapped/ knocked own rises. You wont get nothing from this trial than trouble.

PL>>>AL ---> chance of getting heavier or hidden (worn /in stack) belongings rises, chance of not getting noticed at all rises..

PL>AL ---> you get more time to run away, still the AL rises for some time (maybe days).

 

everything else is up to your speechcraft or your cold steel...