Weapon Familiarity, normal weapons and weapon upgrades

[TrashMan]

 

Maybe there could be a lore reason for certain things holding enchantments better than other things? I have no idea. And, depending on how the system is designed, it might demand some mechanical need for pacing regarding enchantment "slots" (or maybe just potency instead of quantity of enchantments *shrug*). Then again, maybe there's no need for it at all. Which is where your good point comes in. I agree that they should all maybe have the same amount of enchantability.

For what it's worth, I'm thinking of a system in which you don't start with a furniture leg that does 7 damage, and end with a WraithSteel Longsword that does 173 damage. I think MOST of the increase in damage your characters get should come from their progression and ability to use said weapons more effectively. The weapon numbers should really just be a base, and should be balanced against one another (such as a heavy axe being more damaging but slower, and a dagger being less damaging but faster, etc.). Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the system context.

 

I definitely think things should be balanced in such a way that the furniture leg is never better than something you have to be level 20 and trek through 17 optional quests to acquire. Basically, I think the weapons should be tiered, for lack of a better word. So, maybe that Masterwork Steel Longsword can be quantifiably comparable (with you going out of your way to customize and upgrade it) to the Holy Blade of Metriall, but that rusty pitchfork you found 3 seconds into the game cannot. I just don't think the option should be "rely to SOME degree on the improvements in quality of found/purchased items, or completely ignore that and just make a ragged piece of rope into a legendary weapon by the end of the game."

 

 

But of course.. I never said otherwise.

[Jobby]

Quite a good idea as long as we aren't talking about major stat boosts, Perhaps some legendary/unique weapons are more upgradable through quests or challeneges?

 

Either way, as you touched on in the other thread, i really like the idea of limited high value magical items and non-magical weapons/armours conferring stat bonuses such as masterfully crafted suede/felt boots giving a bonus to sneak etc.. Damascus steel katanas... also as there appears to be a sort of technological aspect to the game we could have master crafted mechanised bows, point is I would rather have unique interesting weapons than hundreds of +1 - 5s which are boring as ****.

[Lephys]

 

 

...

 

So, maybe that Masterwork Steel Longsword can be quantifiably comparable (with you going out of your way to customize and upgrade it) to the Holy Blade of Metriall, but that rusty pitchfork you found 3 seconds into the game cannot.

 

...

 

 

But of course.. I never said otherwise.

 

 

Of course. . I wasn't meaning to suggest you did. I was more just thinking "out loud." It's hard to consider all the possible ramifications of a "starting" weapon being upgradeable to the point of an "ending" weapon, and the potential needs of the system (depending on how it could be designed), all at once. So the best I can come up with is a "maybe" that I feel is worth investigating to the best of our ability.

 

New idea-sprout that was sparked in my head just now:

 

IF you're going to let an item be pretty upgradeable with echantments (even minor ones; IF you want to ever, eventual, have the potential for a greater quantity of enchantments, or more potent ones), maybe the item's enchantability could be governed BY the familiarity, somehow? Obviously, while familiarity (weight, balance, etc.) has basis in reality, this idea would not. BUT, there's some fertile idea-soil for it in all that fictional soul lore (Bleeding effects into the weapon after you use it so much, so that it can actually store a bit of soul-power?).

 

Essentially, here's what I thought: In a lot of games, you like equipment for reasons beyond simply its numbers. So, in some games, you find a new thing, and go "Awwww... I really need those improvements from the new thing, so, goodbye old thing that I loved a lot more than the new thing! T_T". And in some games (mostly MMO examples come to mind), they decided, "Hmm... let's let you keep the skin of the old thing, and still get the improvements of the new thing. Aesthetic customization, FTW!"

 

But, that's just aesthetics. It's not actual, mechanical customization. And sure, you can say "Alright, we'll give things upgrade slots, for enchantments or enchanted gemstones or whathaveyou...", but then, like you said, Trashman, the awesome base weapons tend to get more slots. So, it's like saying "Yeah, you can totally put like 2 things into that Copper Pirate Cutlass, to make it better than a base Steel Pirate Cutlass, BUT, you can put like 7 things in the Steel one."

 

So, that doesn't really change the fact that the only way to keep up with the Joneses (aka the enemies' defensive capabilities) is to get entirely new weapons.

 

So, what if a weapon's enchantability were based on familiarity? (this doesn't change the weapons you find that are already magical, nor have any bearing on how scarce they should be, OR on the physical upgrades/customizations you can make to weapons, etc.). It would probably need to be balanced so that not immediately switching to new weapons as soon as they were available (via loot drops OR merchants) would produce a smallish sacrifice/detriment (while your old weapon still hasn't quite gained enough familiarity XP or usage or however you measure it, just yet, to actually improve, so the new weapons are a decent bit better in some respects), but could be easily better (and simultaneously more unique) than the newer stuff after a short time.

 

In other words, if (purely for example) you gain an enchantment slot after every 10 kills with the weapon, and you kill 60 things before you find/can-purchase a better-quality base weapon (that will have 0 slots until you become familiar with it), then there'd never be any point in buying the new stuff, as it would be guaranteed to be WORSE than your current weapon that you've obviously used in your progress to this point in the game.

 

*shrug*. Anywho. Just thought it might be a good system, with the right balancing.

 

 

Brevity - 829; Lephys - 0

[TrashMan]

Well, balance is definately key, but you forgot to consider oen other thing - enchanting and upgrading a base weapon is busywork. IT takes time, effort of $$$. Magic items you find along they way? Not as much.

 

Which is why magical/late-game items have one advantage - they come ready and require no $$$ expense on your part to be great.

 

Hmm...

Should even late-game items be upgreadable? If you can further upgrade the Sword of Badassery +5, that kinda makes it pointless.

 

Maybe max up to 3 enchantments per weapon - 4 or 5 for legendary items. and since magic items already have enchantments on them, you are more limited with them.

 

So your masterwork steel sword can have 3 magical effects placed on it (plus other various, non-magical tweaks).

The Sword of fire can have 2 magical effects

Sword of fire +2 has room for 1 magical effect more.

 

Legendary items would already be maxed out?

[JFSOCC]

Should even late-game items be upgreadable?

Good question. I'd say, yes for 'normal' magic items, no for legendary weapons. Those should be pretty damn good anyway.

[Lephys]

Well, balance is definately key, but you forgot to consider oen other thing - enchanting and upgrading a base weapon is busywork. IT takes time, effort of $$$. Magic items you find along they way? Not as much.

I didn't forget. . It depends on where and when you find them along the way, which is a part of the balance.

 

Hmm...

Should even late-game items be upgreadable? If you can further upgrade the Sword of Badassery +5, that kinda makes it pointless.

It really depends on what they are. I was thinking more along the lines of more base items that are simply higher quality than what you had. i.e. "I've got this furniture leg up to 2 enchantment slots, because I've been using it for so long, but this Damascus Steel Longsword I just found/bought is WAYYYY more effective against armor than this furniture leg, even with its flameyness and its debuff that makes people randomly fall down."

 

And, I mean, you often have to go out of your way to get to some improved equipment, whether it be sidequests, pure exploration, or money accumulation in order to purchase something new. So, I'm thinking that simply found magical, enchanted things should be pretty rare (as in you don't find them very often, on the ground or in shops... not so much "There are only 1.7 in the whole game!"). So, they should be pretty rare, and decently useful at that (None of this +1 fire damage or +1 to attack... Again, I'd like to see utility, rather than any amount of pure number boosts). And the legendary stuff should be especially tougher to get, and thus rarer. So, yeah, definitely no familiarity building in regards to an increased enchantability, for legendary/unique weapons and such. And maybe the lesser magical weapons just have fewer maximum slots, since they're already holding some soul magic?

 

Maybe max up to 3 enchantments per weapon - 4 or 5 for legendary items. and since magic items already have enchantments on them, you are more limited with them.

 

So your masterwork steel sword can have 3 magical effects placed on it (plus other various, non-magical tweaks).

The Sword of fire can have 2 magical effects

Sword of fire +2 has room for 1 magical effect more.

 

Legendary items would already be maxed out?

Holy carp I'm lame. I was so busy typing that previous paragraph out, I didn't realize that you pretty much already addressed the exact same thing, *facepalm*.

 

While I couldn't tell you the exact numbers to use without knowing all the rest of the game's design (I just know a rough estimate, like 10 customizable enchantments on a weapon is starting to get pretty stupid, so probably less than that, and probably more than just 1 would be cool), I believe we are in agreement on the principle behind the balancing.

 

I'm with the group that's quite sick of the finding of a magical sword producing simply "Oh, another one of those. Meh, I think mine does like 3 more DPS, when you do the math. Oh well... I'll just sell it, and buy some more DPS for my current weapon, ^_^." I would like to see a return to a magic sword being all "Croikey! This thing's friggin' ENCHANTED! It's completely different from my current weapon!"

 

You know... like hiking through the woods, and finding a pegasus. Not "Oh look, a big, different-colored horse that's way stronger and faster than all previous horses!"

Edited February 21, 2013 by Lephys

[TrashMan]

Indeed. the devs should get creative with magic and special powers of legendary items.

 

Maybe they should look from some inspiration from anime. Characters there often have very varried powers and effects.

 

For example:

 

These videos do a poor job of showing off what I mean, as it's the effects(and their mechanics)  that are interesting. I would probably have to copy/paste those from the wiki to get th idea across... And this would probably fall under "magic" thread more.

[Lephys]

No, I totally get what you mean. I often think that. Of course, I always fear that saying it will provoke all the "NO, THIS GAME DOES NOT NEED TO BE MORE LIKE ANIME" rage-sponses. Haha.

 

But, yeah, I mean, the Zanpakutou in Bleach, for example, were pretty awesome. Some of them, at least. Like, ehh... what was it called, Wabisuke? It doubles the weight of things it strikes. So, it doesn't do any more damage or even have any more reach than other people's weapons, but it would basically render your opponent's weapons/shield/armor useless after enough successful strikes. Obviously the "double" part might have to be adjusted for a game like P:E, but the interesting utility of the effect (rather than potency) is the point here.

 

I'm trying to think of others, now, and I'm blanking... There were like 8,000 characters in that show/manga, haha.

 

Oh, also, I cannot see those videos right now, which is why I'm not responding directly to them. When I get home and can view them, I will gladly check them out. (I didn't want you to think I was just ignoring them, and/or pretending they were crappy examples or something.)

 

But, yes, you've gotta give anime writers props for creativity when it comes to weapons/abilities.

 

Oooh! What if some weapons simply grant the user a new, unique "spell" or ability? It would still fall under the per-encounter or per-rest thing, but the only way you could get it/use it would be whilst using that weapon/piece of equipment. Maybe it doesn't even do any more damage than a non-enchanted weapon, or provide any passive effects. Or, obviously, maybe a combination of passive effects and active, unique abilities (I stress the word "unique." I don't want a sword that just lets people shoot Wizard's fireballs, or use Barbarian attacks.)

Edited February 22, 2013 by Lephys

[Jarmo]

 

 

Oooh! What if some weapons simply grant the user a new, unique "spell" or ability?  

 

 

This I like.

 

Though unique wouldn't be as necessary for my pleasure, basically I'd like something like Thor's hammer,

a throwable returning thing that also lets you shoot lightning.

 

That leads me thinking maybe some upgrades should be tied to specific gods or temples, maybe come with drawbacks tied to the domain.

Can't get the specific blessings elsewhere and can't get thors blessing on a weapon already blessed by some other deity.

 

Like...  blind gods blessed weapons would cause (temporary) blindness on the wielder (always) and target (on hit)

in addition to leeching stamina from the opponent on succesful hits.

[TrashMan]

Let me give you some examples of the attacks from the video. Granted, some I just find visually impressive.

 

Excalibur

Cuts trough everything. EVERYTHING. Even lesser gods and their armor.

 

Lightining Plasma

Millions of bolts per second from random directions. Compeltely and utterly unavoidable.

 

Tenbu Horin

Removes 5 senses (touch, smell, hearing, taste, sight)  from the opponent, one by one.

 

Scarlet needle

Attack that concetrates it's power in a tiny, needle-like sting. Because of it's focus, it pierces trough armor with ease. Each strike is aimed at a specific point on the targets body, mimicking the locations of stars in the constellation of Scorpio. Each hit produces intense pain and weakens the opponent. Several hits are enough to kill most opponents. If the opponent has recieved the 14 punctures and is still alive, the final blow - Antares (the guiding star of the constellation) is delivered. It works in conjuction with the other 14 and death is guaranteed, as no amount of willpower or toughness can stop it.

 

Another Dimension/Golden Triangle

what the name implies. Sucks the victim into another dimension

 

Freezing Coffin

Traps the opponent into an unbreakable coffin of ice

 

Diamond Dust/Aurora Execution

A frost attacks that flash-freezes and destroys armor (and usually the guy in it). The Aurora is the more powerfull version, reaching absolute zero.

 

Crystal Wall

A wall of telekinetic energy that reflects attacks back.

 

There's of course, a lot more from many other series.

 

Off the top of my head, a  guy who can make his blood explode. so he cuts himself and sprinkels some on you. And you go boom.

 

Localized gravity control? Make someone go flying up in the air!

 

 

Etc...

[TrashMan]

And of course, my favorite character (and a friggin cool attack):

 

Let the mind-raping commence:

Edited February 22, 2013 by TrashMan

[Alexjh]

It seems kind of strange to me that you'd simultaniously be advocating a low-magic setting and then giving those as examples.  While I'm very much for unique powers, most of those are a bit over powered and lacking in subtlty...

 

I do like the idea of a weapon that removes senses, if not all of them, but if it was used against your party I like the idea of being hit and suddenly while a certain character is elected the entire gameplay part of the screen is blurred so you can't see what's going on, or suddenly it just reduces the volume of the game to being muffled while on that character.  

[TrashMan]

There's different kinds of low - low power and low frequency.

 

I prefer low frequency (magic is rare) and up to moderate power....in general. Exceptions prove the rule.

 

 

The above examples are there just for ideas/inspiration and not for direct copy/pasting into PE - naturally some are as overpowered as hell (even in their own setting).

[Alexjh]

I'd say my stance is more medium-low frequency (most good shops will have a few items rattling around, if not especially potents ones) and medium-low power.  A classic flaming sword for instance would be the sort of thing there might be a dozen or so around on the entire planet, possibly left over from some brief fad the nobility who could afford such things had a few years back.  Within the course of the game you might only encounter, say, 2 of them, and one might be in the possession of an ally rather than something you can actually get your hands on.  

 

I'd also say that anything much more potent than that would be what I consider things which "became" rather than were created that way, eg. someone might make a +3 sword or some cold arrows, but the really truely epic stuff might be created when a moment falls as such that a being pours soul energy into their weapon, either intentionally or not.  The last defender of a bridge against a horde of baddies might become so focused on purely fighting that the sword takes on a little of him etc. Or a guy who hunts down werewolves kills so many with his axe that the souls of those werewolves being released begins to infuse into it and so on.  A being like a god might be able to imbue a fraction of their power into the weapon of a person who has got their favour.  But even then, none of that should result in anything far beyond empoweringthe wielder in relatively minor ways (ie. you can make a normal guy into a very strong guy, but not a normal guy into the Hulk) unless there are going to be severe penalties to balance that.  

[jamoecw]

why not use the whole myth thing about blood and a weapons soul?  there is a myth that a weapon has to be quenched with blood when made in order to keep a weapon from getting bloodlust.  if it gets bloodlust then it will desire violence, if it is quenched in blood it will not, if it is quenched in the blood of the warrior that uses it then it becomes a part of the warrior.

 

so something like ordinary mass produced weapons will gain a +1 to damage after a certain amount of damage given with the weapon (not quenched in blood).  masterwork weapons (which already have a +1 to hit but not damage) gain a +1 to defense after a certain number of fights (quenched in blood).  and finally be able to make a sword just for you, which would level up with you, whether you fight or not, giving bonuses based on the feats/class level you take.

 

i'd have a similar thing for each basic type of weapon, though different bonuses and such based on some sort of lore, the reason i chose sword for the example is that the myth is for a sword, and strangely it comes from both ancient celtic and japanese sword smithing (opposite sides of the world).  it is also independent of special materials used (maybe mithril even lighter and faster if quenched in water instead of blood, but gets +1 to hit if quenched in blood).

 

so weapons would have a 'non-magical' way to gain affinity with it, getting a small bonus from being in tune with the weapon's soul.  special personal weapons (made just for you) can rival magic items even in late game (but not exceed), but as they mimic you to an extant, they wouldn't be able to balance you out (a sword of defense to compensate for your poor defenses), just make you better at what you already do.  your personal weapon should be just a masterwork weapon to everyone else though.

[Jarrakul]

So, this is a concept that I've playing around with in PnP RPGs. It's fun, but tricky. The way I manage it (which I do not claim is perfect) is by saying that familiarity grants attack bonuses while magic grants damage bonuses. So a magic sword might be incredibly powerful, but it's no easier to wield than a normal sword. Meanwhile a sword that you're really familiar with is still just a sword, but you know that thing inside and out and you know how to control it like it's an extension of your arm. That's the simple bit.

 

The more complicated bit is about symbolism. Basically, the entire reason to have familiarity bonuses instead of traditional RPG loot upgrades is for symbolic/thematic reasons. Maybe you want to wield the sword of your grandfather for your entire career, or maybe you killed a dragon and there's no way you're getting rid of a spear that killed a freakin' dragon. You want some system in place to represent how iconically important a weapon is, in some way or another. Maybe your grandfather's sword has an inherent familiarity bonus and increases familiarity faster over time, and maybe your spear became semi-magical after killing a freakin' dragon. The point is to make whatever you choose awesome, because thematics are the only reason to bother with familiarity anyway.

The problem arises when you start to combine familiarity with magic weapons. What if a character inherited the Blade of a Thousand Truths from his grandfather? It was already an amazing weapon, and now it's only gonna get better. And should it really help if you get lucky and find a longsword +1 in the early game instead of a normal longsword? For the entire rest of the game, I mean? Probably not. So the other component I would recommend is some system by which familiarity and enchantment are opposed. So, for example, every +1 bonus (to use D&D terms) might slow the rate of familiarity gain by some amount (you'd probably want something a tad more complex than this, but you get the idea).

[Lephys]

Excellent stuff, Jarrakul!

 

Maybe, to expand the complexity a bit, familiarity AND physical weapon customizations (i.e. reforging the blade a slightly different way in order to better suit the particulars of your fighting style, or customizing the grip, or the weight/balance of the weapon, etc.) would account for improvements ONLY to the effective USE of the weapon -- Potentially... attack bonus (like you said), attack speed, critical hit chance, weapon-defense bonus (parrying, etc.), etc. -- while enchantments would actually add additional effects and damage (I still hold to wanting to see a greater utility-to-numbers ratio when it comes to magic effects and damage)?

 

In addition to this, you could, as you mentioned, have adjustments to the rate of familiarity gain (on that note, maybe customizations would simply increase familiarity in a "shortcut" fashion, up to a certain point, if you have the money/resources?). AND, you could have hard caps on the amount of usability improvements a weapon could gain, with feats (er... talents?) and such sometimes contributing to this, if you chose them. So, if you had a feat that grants you a +2 to attack rolls with longswords, then you can still only get up to a +5 (arbitrary number), total, with a weapon. So, you basically always get a headstart, by selecting those talents, to effective weapon use. At the same moment that someone without those talents got up to a +3 attack bonus with that longsword, you'd already have +5 (between whatever combination of familiarity and customizations are allowed).

 

Alternatively, that might undervalue the talents a bit, depending on how things are designed. So, maybe you just limit the maximum familiarity bonuses, accordingly, to account for the potential choice of talent bonuses. So, maybe familiarity can only ever give you +3, total, and the talents can give you another +2. IF you take the talents, you're even better at hitting with a fully-familiar weapon (AND a brand-new, unfamiliar weapon, to an extent), at the cost of whatever else you could've spend talent "points" on.

 

*Le shruggles*. You got my brain pistons moving, but they don't ever produce ALL the necessary details, haha.

[TrashMan]

The problem arises when you start to combine familiarity with magic weapons. What if a character inherited the Blade of a Thousand Truths from his grandfather? It was already an amazing weapon, and now it's only gonna get better. And should it really help if you get lucky and find a longsword +1 in the early game instead of a normal longsword? For the entire rest of the game, I mean? Probably not. So the other component I would recommend is some system by which familiarity and enchantment are opposed. So, for example, every +1 bonus (to use D&D terms) might slow the rate of familiarity gain by some amount (you'd probably want something a tad more complex than this, but you get the idea).

 

I don't see it as problem. You're not gonna start the game with the best sword in the game, and you are incredibly unlikely to get a really good one early game. Familiarity takes time after all, and it's a tiny bonus.

 

Why swhould familiarity and enchantment be opposed? There's no logic behind it.

Besides, I may want to enchant my familiar sword.

 

And if enchantment and familiarity are to be opposed, what about mundane weapon upgrades (like adding a ricasso??

 

Edited March 1, 2013 by TrashMan

[rjshae]

Pointe þe Seconde: A steel sword isn't necessarily a POS, but the broader concept of a low-level base, unenchanted, non-sentient weapon leveling with the character is absurd. Especially if P:E's setting has materials stronger than steel available.

 

Wait, what? An intelligent, enchanted weapon is not absurd?

 

Having a mundane weapon level with the character more absurd than most, if not all other magic concepts. But I do think it should be a rare thing. There should just be something about the weapon that sets it apart; perhaps it made a life-saving critical hit against a magical monster, or spent time at the bottom of a magical font, or served a noble cause a holy crusade, ...

[Lephys]

I don't see it as problem. You're not gonna start the game with the best sword in the game, and you are incredibly unlikely to get a really good one early game. Familiarity takes time after all, and it's a tiny bonus.

 

Why swhould familiarity and enchantment be opposed? There's no logic behind it.

Besides, I may want to enchant my familiar sword.

 

And if enchantment and familiarity are to be opposed, what about mundane weapon upgrades (like adding a ricasso??

I don't think they should be opposed, but I think it makes sense that they fill somewhat separate roles (as I described in my previous post.) I think having a +5 familiarity sword, with 5 enchantments on it that gave you a +5 to hit would result in breaking the "overpowered" threshold. Or, quite potentially. If you allow enchantments to handle damage/effect bonuses (fire, stunning, lifesteal, etc.), and you allow Familiarity to handle anything that isn't directly damage or effect bonuses (weapon handling, attack modifiers, etc.), I think there's merit in that.

 

Basically, I can see why you wouldn't want them to overlap. If you got Familiar with a longsword, and you got a +3 to hit because of that, THEN, you found a Magical Longsword of Flame, and you gained +3 fire damage and a Burn DOT and/or the ability to ignite things for combo effects (explosions, fire-effect spreading to multiple targets, etc), then cool. You get Familiar with it, it's easier to hit with. BUT, if that Magical Longsword of Flame gave you a +4 to hit because of enchantments, well, now when you get fully acquainted with it, you went from a +3 to hit to a +7 to hit. Things could get pretty ridiculous with that, unless you intentionally left the +attack modifiers off of enchanted things with too many other effects, but then that's loads of overlapping balancing work. "Wait, do I give this an attack modifier? Wait, I have to factor in the potential familiarity bonus. Ahh crap... maybe I change the familiarity bonus, just for this weapon?". Etc.

 

So, then, since that leaves us with "But familiarity takes time, so if I get that new sword of awesome effectiveness, I can just never get a boost to my attack rolls with it, without using it for like 2 hours?", that's where I thought the actual weapon customizations would come in (hilts, blade shape, weight/balance, etc.). Got 700 gold lying around? Maybe you can give that weapon a +3 attack modifier by customizing it, rather than having to just get used to its current shape/weight/feel for the next 100 kills or whatever. Essentially, instead of molding yourself to it, you mold it to yourself (Like Needle, little Arya Stark's sword in A Song of Ice and Fire.)

 

PLUS, you could have talents (who were, until recently, called "feats") that could give you permanent attack bonuses with a given weapon/weapon-type. Of course, like I said, you'd probably want the talents AND customizations AND familiarity to all be governed by some common limitation. Otherwise, again, at the end of the game, you'd have +4 to attack from customizations, +3 from familiarity, and +5 from feats. Just THINKING about hitting things would cause critical hits. 8P

 

Granted, maybe one of the three (like the talents, for example) could NOT be under the same limitation, since it's directly related to character build, so that you could build characters who, despite their familiarity with their weapon and the customizations it has, would hit more often and produce criticals more easily than other characters (at the cost of other character improvements/abilities you could've chosen via talents).

[TrashMan]

Why +5 to familiarity?

+5 isn't a tiny bonus.

Now it's you who are turning it into an overpowered thing. +1... +2 tops.

 

Besides, who said a bonus to hit must be standard on magic weapons (or even a big one)

[JFSOCC]

in Dnd +5 is not a small bonus, in PE, we have no idea and are using it as an arbitrary example number

[Jarrakul]

Trashman: My argument about familiarity and enchantment being opposed stems from the styles of play that familiarity bonuses encourage in players. If familiarity and enchantment are not opposed, it becomes extremely important to get a good weapon early so you can stack familiarity bonuses onto it. This undermines the whole "use the weapon you like" approach, and changes it into "find a powerful weapon early" which is not at all what any of us are aiming to encourage. Furthermore, if familiarity and enchantment are not opposed, then we suddenly have to worry a lot more about "disk one nukes." You know, those really powerful items that you can often find in the beginning of games? Like the enclave power armor in Fallout 2, or the ankheg plate in Baldur's Gate. These items are really cool, and can be borderline essential to surviving the early game on higher difficulties (since you haven't had much time to optimize your character). But if these items get familiarity just as quickly as normal items, then they'll be significantly overpowered in the mid- and end-game, when you've already had a chance to get ahead and therefore don't need the boost. So yes, I think they should be opposed.

I would also argue for familiarity bonuses eventually being very large. I want to be able to pick up a sword at the start of the game, and through some combination of familiarity, customization, and symbolic significance, be able to use that same sword throughout the entire game and have it be just as viable (but not more so) as going through the game using every new magic sword I find in turn. I would like the "ordinary" sword to play somewhat differently from the super-magic end-game sword (Lepthys quite nicely listed the different kinds of effects each could reasonably have), but it should be just as good by the end. And, of course, you could pick up a sword halfway through the game and end up with a something in the middle, and that should be fine too.

[TrashMan]

@Jarrakul:

You are complicating matters nedlessly.

Familiarity bonus should stay low.

It's not there to make a starting weapon into a uber one. That's what re-forging, upgrades and enchantments are for. (and weapon proficiency)

 

There's nothing to be overpowered, since it doesn't take forever to gain familiarity, and as I said - the bonus should be small.

 

However, if you want to make it so that familiarity increases greatly, then I still see little problem. Familiarity is a function of individual andexperience, NOT magic. So there's no logical reason to make it oposes. It just doesn't make sense. If someone wants to bee-line for a powerfull sword, let them. Exactly why should you stop them to begin with?

 

OF course, you cna also make itthat using a weapon for a week grants +1 familiary. For a month grants +2. For a year +3 (and after that doesn't increase) I'm using week/month/year figuratively, since familiarity would not be measured by time in-game, I'm jsut stating how it should logicly work. Mechanicly it could be the number of sucesfull hits or kills with it or whatever.

[jamoecw]

@Jarrakul:

You are complicating matters nedlessly.

Familiarity bonus should stay low.

It's not there to make a starting weapon into a uber one. That's what re-forging, upgrades and enchantments are for. (and weapon proficiency)

 

There's nothing to be overpowered, since it doesn't take forever to gain familiarity, and as I said - the bonus should be small.

 

However, if you want to make it so that familiarity increases greatly, then I still see little problem. Familiarity is a function of individual andexperience, NOT magic. So there's no logical reason to make it oposes. It just doesn't make sense. If someone wants to bee-line for a powerfull sword, let them. Exactly why should you stop them to begin with?

 

OF course, you cna also make itthat using a weapon for a week grants +1 familiary. For a month grants +2. For a year +3 (and after that doesn't increase) I'm using week/month/year figuratively, since familiarity would not be measured by time in-game, I'm jsut stating how it should logicly work. Mechanicly it could be the number of sucesfull hits or kills with it or whatever.

he was talking about his pnp game system, not your P:E suggestion, i think.

 

as for a basis for them to be opposed, anything that creates a large hole in someone has a harder time penetrating armor, thus large wound channel weapons (aka high damage ones) would be harder to cause damage with, though once damage is dealt it would be greater.  think of it like the difference between hunting ammo and military ammo.  hunting ammo's job is to kill its target, while military ammo's job is to create a casualty.  so if a round bounces off the deer you are stalking it runs off and you have to go find another one.  if it bounces off a soldier you are fighting he will keep shooting at you.  if you wound a deer it will run off, so you won't get the meat, pretty much the same result as bouncing off, except for there being less deer for you to hunt in the future, and thus the immediate situation is the same, while long term logistics are at a loss.  if you wound a soldier you are fighting, he stops shooting at you and calls for a medic/help, and thus the immediate situation is better, while the long term logistics are equal or better (2-4 months to replace a dead soldier, 2-4 months for the soldier to heal, while being cared for by a doctor or left to die, demoralizing his side).

 

 

@Jarrakul:

as for weapon familiarity:

F/(F+L)

F = familiarity points

L = level of character

 

that equation should give you a fraction that scales with diminishing returns.  if used to multiply against the familiarity cap for the weapon you can have it vary from weapon to weapon.  also as you gain level your bonus would diminish unless you keep gaining familiarity points.

 

trashman's +3 max:

F = 10, L = 2; (10/(10+2))*3 = 2.5 or the full bonus with normal rounding

F = 5, L = 2; (5/(5+2))*3 = ~2.14 or 2 with rounding

F = 1, L = 2; (1/(1+2))*3 = 1

F = 1, L = 9; (1/(1+9))*3 = 0.3 or 0 with rounding

 

+6 max:

 

F = 10, L = 2; (10/(10+2))*6 = 5

F = 5, L = 2; (5/(5+2))*6 = ~4.29 or 4 with rounding

F = 1, L = 2; (1/(1+2))*6 = 2

F = 1, L = 9; (1/(1+9))*6 = 0.6 or 1 with rounding

 

X/(X+Y) is a simple diminishing returns equation used in many video games these days for armor and evasion and such.