Wizards with swords: Should wizards have melee capability?

[Osvir]

Quick-fire thought: What about a Grimoire Sword? The Grimoire itself being a "Hilt", in essence, and the Sword (Blade really) is some spawned magical stuff sticking out of the book. Though, that'd be a "type of" Wizard.

[Lephys]

Quick-fire thought: What about a Grimoire Sword? The Grimoire itself being a "Hilt", in essence, and the Sword (Blade really) is some spawned magical stuff sticking out of the book. Though, that'd be a "type of" Wizard.

While creatively awesome, It just doesn't seem to click very well. I mean, it doesn't seem practical enough, within the practicality needs of the game world. If a Wizard could conjure a blade, you'd think he'd just go ahead and conjure an ergonomic handle, instead of trying to swing it from his Grimoire.

 

While we're on it, though, it would be pretty nice to have conjured weapons for melee-range stuff. They could be sort of a passive/sustained spell, and they'd grow weaker with use (hits could use up spell "stamina"/potency, and maybe too many hits/blocks in a row cause the weapon to dissipate?), while gradually recharging to full strength in their down-time (thus making them short-term-use tools rather than permanent "I HAVE A BLADE MADE OUT OF MAGIC! NONE CAN STOP ME! MUAHAHAHA!" things).

 

That could actually be an answer to our melee-wizard debate. Those conjured weapons would cost you spell slots/points, so for every point you put into Ethereal Blade, that's one point you don't put into Long Ranged Nukey Spell. And the diminishing potency I suggested would take care of the "Wizards are now just perma-fighters" thing. You wouldn't be a full-melee machine. You'd simply be melee-capable via specialization of your magic. You could have different weapons, too, such as LIGHTNING WHIP! Words cannot stress enough just how amazing a whip made of lightning is. u_u

Edited March 25, 2013 by Lephys

[Tsuga C]

Quick-fire thought: What about a Grimoire Sword? The Grimoire itself being a "Hilt", in essence, and the Sword (Blade really) is some spawned magical stuff sticking out of the book. Though, that'd be a "type of" Wizard.

No--reeks of munchkin cheesiness.

[Ffordesoon]

@Lephys:

 

It's funny, I wrote a bunch of stuff about conjured weapons when I was writing my last post, but then I cut and pasted it into a text file because I didn't think it would be of much interest to y'all.

 

The issue I have with conjured weapons, to the extent that I do have one, is pretty simple: they're never any different from regular weapons mechanically. How do you think that could be mitigated?

[Lephys]

Well, to put it simply (but I swear I'm not trying to be a smartarse), make them different from regular weapons. .

 

Clearly, the details of "how" are the tricky part, heh. It's like you said: in most games, the ONLY difference between conjured weapons and regular ones is that conjured ones are on a timer. Which, as long as you have the mana/resources, is about the equivalent of a physical sword that you are guaranteed to drop every 2 minutes (or however long the spell duration is on the conjured weapon), so that you must pick it back up and re-equip it every 2 minutes. Mechanically, that's hardly a difference at all, really. Well, there's that, plus the aesthetic model.

 

I really think making them lose "durability" or integrity when used would be a start. Just from that, they already can't directly take the place of regular weapons, because making 10 physical attacks in a row (as would be commonplace for a Fighter with a physical weapon in a large-scale fight) would cause them to "dispel" or dissipate, so to speak, and they would need to be re-summoned. They could even become less effective, the closer they get to dissipation. Then, they could "regenerate" their integrity while not directly being used.

 

Other (non-mutually-exclusive) options include:

 

Have them function as a different attack (arcane damage as opposed to physical damage) than a regular blade, so their attacks would have differing properties, such as not producing bleed damage while physical edges did, or only being effective against certain types of enemies (whether it's 90% of enemies, or only 20% of enemies, depending on the particular effect and the balancing needed).

 

Have them act like instant-cast spells, so that the conjured blade/weapon only actually lasts for the swing, or perhaps the simple combo, then dissipates until "cast" again. Basically, a spell-cast and an attack would be roughly the same thing, like a Fighter's "Power Attack," which the fighter happens to perform with the physical weapon he's already holding rather than conjuring one.

 

Have them be modal/sustained abilities. You cannot cast any other spells while they are active, OR your cast times suffer a penalty of having to sustain a manifested, effective weapon while you cast. Of course, I would still say this isn't enough difference to warrant making the conjured weapon basically just a "magical" version of an actual, regular weapon. I think "make them actually different weapons" is pretty much a mandatory thing, no matter what other options you go with, lest they just feel like Bizarro weapons. "Oh, you bought that Mithril Longsword for 1,000 gold? I can just summon a weapon with the exact same attributes and functionality as an inherent, permanent ability, with minimal downsides, u_u."

 

Have them be passively less effective than regular weapons (conjured sword does 5 damage whilst a regular sword does 10, etc.) since you're most likely going to be summoning them with a far-from-maximum-weapon-prowess class (like a Mage) anyway. BUT, have them grant you small sets of unique abilities. These are going to be generic and not-necessarily worthy examples, but things along the lines of: An Earth/Nature conjured weapon giving you some kind of short-ranged shockwave or entanglement, while a Fire blade grants you little flame whips or some kind of slicey-cleave attack that hits an arc around you, or even thin, directional ground cuts (short range, ground-targeted) that cause fire/lava walls to erupt briefly, etc. Maybe the conjured weapon has a certain amount of charges (such as 10-or-so), and each weapon-ability uses up a charge (just like your per-encounter/per-rest spell "ammo"). So, that's how they could be limited, rather than via duration or sustainment. Once the weapon was used up and dissipated, there could be a cooldown for re-conjuring a weapon (perhaps 20 seconds or so... just long enough so that you'd have to think twice before burning through all your weapon charges, thinking you could simply re-conjure the weapon when it dissipated and keep on truckin'). That's actually how Guild Wars 2 does weapons. I think it handles things pretty nicely.

 

 

I think the most important thing is the approach. It's not a good idea to come up with a magical means of directly mimicking physical weapons and fightery-class prowess. Conjured/magical (literally made from magic, not simply enchanted) weaponry should function very much like the rest of magic does, rather than exchanging mana (or, in P:E's case, spell "ammo") for a Mithril Longsword replica that looks like it's made out of glowy blueness. I think they should be approached as a short-range "fighting style" for magic. Just as you can generally pick schools of magic (Illusion, Destruction, etc.), and your favorite elements (Fire, Air, Earth, etc.), and different spell types (kinda falls under the previous 2 categories). I don't see why "Conjured Stuff" shouldn't be a Mage style, and why Mages shouldn't get a short-ranged attack set.

 

Again, I make the comparison between a sniper rifle and a shotgun. Neither make you into a melee Fighter, but they both function very differently, tactically.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Lephys

[Osvir]

Further explaining and more (new) ways of "Wizards with Swords".

Concept 1: The Grimoire is hovering in mid-air, and either the Grimoire Blade is a unit by itself (which can be controlled and moved as a unit, the Wizard would be static/channeling for it to work).

Concept 2: The Wizard opens a magical rift and the Warrior sticks his hand through it and out of the book the blade appears. I do love Steiner's and Vivi's "Magic Sword" combination, but I've been curious if there are more things you can do with it than "Set the sword ablaze!".



EDIT: I can totally see Concept 2 as something tactical, an enemy Rogue appears at your flank or in a position where the Wizard is vurnerable, in this situation a spell that allows the Fighter to "extend" his help (partially... and literally) could be a savior.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

Ive seen a lot of posts referring to Stamina being "used up" while attacking. Can someone direct me to a developer post that states that?

[Tsuga C]

Ive seen a lot of posts referring to Stamina being "used up" while attacking. Can someone direct me to a developer post that states that?

I don't recall one directly linked to attacking, but as your character will be hit regularly the constant thumping or dodging to avoid a blow will likely drain your stamina to a degree.  It also stands to reason that wielding a heavy weapon (heavy for your character, anyway) or a flail that must constantly be in motion might drain a bit of your stamina, but you'll need to ask an Obsidian employee about specifics.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Tsuga C

[teknoman2]

what could prove to be effective as wizard with sword, is buffer wizard that uses his spells to increase his companon's combat abilities and fight head on by buffing himself when his companions cant help him

[Gfted1]

 

Ive seen a lot of posts referring to Stamina being "used up" while attacking. Can someone direct me to a developer post that states that?

I don't recall one directly linked to attacking, but as your character will be hit regularly the constant thumping or dodging to avoid a blow will likely drain your stamina to a degree.  It also stands to reason that wielding a heavy weapon (heavy for your character, anyway) or a flail that must constantly be in motion might drain a bit of your stamina, but you'll need to ask an Obsidian employee about specifics.

 

 

 

Ah, you guys are discussing what-ifs. I thought I might have missed something official.

[Somna]

 

Ive seen a lot of posts referring to Stamina being "used up" while attacking. Can someone direct me to a developer post that states that?

I don't recall one directly linked to attacking, but as your character will be hit regularly the constant thumping or dodging to avoid a blow will likely drain your stamina to a degree.  It also stands to reason that wielding a heavy weapon (heavy for your character, anyway) or a flail that must constantly be in motion might drain a bit of your stamina, but you'll need to ask an Obsidian employee about specifics.

His point is, people are ignoring (or ignorant of) the fact that "Stamina" in Project Eternity is what other games would label as your "HP."

 

Here's another explanation, if you are willing to read through to where it is.

 

There are people who do not like using Stamina in this way because they are too used to using it to mean something else.

 

Unless your attacks have some level of masochism involved or screw over your combat effectiveness, you are not likely to be using Stamina to power anything.    It's implied that something that affects your Stamina will automatically affect your health as well.

 

 

 

Edit: And I see Gfted1 replied back already.  That's what I get for sitting on a post for 1 hour LOL.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Somna

[Ffordesoon]

Health, Stamina, whatever. The one that refills quickly.

[teknoman2]

they never said anything about  stamina being used for attacking and whatnot, but they did say that the special moves of the barbarian are powerful but exausting, thing that may mean that stamina will be used for skills. but its speculation so far

[moridin84]

I think a "summoned sword" is just a spell. Technically it fits the criteria of "wizard with a sword" but it wouldn't make me feel like a "wizard with a sword". 

[teknoman2]

the kind of wizard you speak of would be someone with access to spells like tenser's transformation, that turn the wizard into a fighter of the same level for some time. however they have said that class will not resctrict skill progress, something similar to the divinity games. so you can start as a wizard, learn spells as you go, but instead of getting skills that supplement you spellcasting, you get skill that increase your physical abilities so you can fight head on and cast spells (with reduced efficacy)

[Osvir]

I think a "summoned sword" is just a spell. Technically it fits the criteria of "wizard with a sword" but it wouldn't make me feel like a "wizard with a sword". 

Concept 1: Yes, in a sense. What I meant really was a blade that requires the Wizard to be in proximity to the Grimoire. So it is still very much close-combat. But like a Jedi with his Lightsaber could do a "Force throw" as well.

 

Concept 3: Haven't painted it yet but I thought of one more which is practically a combination of Concept 1 & Concept 2. The Wizard could perhaps open a rift behind an enemy, and stick his sword into the book and hit the enemy from far away like that. Oh I dunno I would have to draw this to show what I mean I think.

[AGX-17]

Quick-fire thought: What about a Grimoire Sword? The Grimoire itself being a "Hilt", in essence, and the Sword (Blade really) is some spawned magical stuff sticking out of the book. Though, that'd be a "type of" Wizard.

How would a massive book with a bayonet attached be anything but comically cumbersome and ineffective?

 

 

I think a "summoned sword" is just a spell. Technically it fits the criteria of "wizard with a sword" but it wouldn't make me feel like a "wizard with a sword".

Concept 1: Yes, in a sense. What I meant really was a blade that requires the Wizard to be in proximity to the Grimoire. So it is still very much close-combat. But like a Jedi with his Lightsaber could do a "Force throw" as well.

 

Concept 3: Haven't painted it yet but I thought of one more which is practically a combination of Concept 1 & Concept 2. The Wizard could perhaps open a rift behind an enemy, and stick his sword into the book and hit the enemy from far away like that. Oh I dunno I would have to draw this to show what I mean I think.

 

 

Fighters can't typically (or ever, to my knowledge,) throw their sword at an enemy like a modern toy boomerang that returns on command. Conjuring a spectral sword of some kind is not analogous to a wizard equipping a sword and plate armor. And why would the wizard in question drop their treasured grimoire (it has been established that the things are the crux of magic usage in the P:E world,) on the ground in the first place?

 

By the by, I don't think we need any more "visual aids." I do believe it's reasonable to assume most readers are familiar with the concept of portals, dimension doors, wormholes and the like.

Edited March 31, 2013 by AGX-17

[Osvir]

 

Quick-fire thought: What about a Grimoire Sword? The Grimoire itself being a "Hilt", in essence, and the Sword (Blade really) is some spawned magical stuff sticking out of the book. Though, that'd be a "type of" Wizard.

1. How would a massive book with a bayonet attached be anything but comically cumbersome and ineffective?

> 

I think a "summoned sword" is just a spell. Technically it fits the criteria of "wizard with a sword" but it wouldn't make me feel like a "wizard with a sword".

Concept 1: Yes, in a sense. What I meant really was a blade that requires the Wizard to be in proximity to the Grimoire. So it is still very much close-combat. But like a Jedi with his Lightsaber could do a "Force throw" as well.

 

Concept 3: Haven't painted it yet but I thought of one more which is practically a combination of Concept 1 & Concept 2. The Wizard could perhaps open a rift behind an enemy, and stick his sword into the book and hit the enemy from far away like that. Oh I dunno I would have to draw this to show what I mean I think.

2. Fighters can't typically (or ever, to my knowledge,) throw their sword at an enemy like a modern toy boomerang that returns on command. Conjuring a spectral sword of some kind is not analogous to a wizard equipping a sword and plate armor. And why would the wizard in question drop their treasured grimoire (it has been established that the things are the crux of magic usage in the P:E world,) on the ground in the first place?

 

3. By the by, I don't think we need any more "visual aids." I do believe it's reasonable to assume most readers are familiar with the concept of portals, dimension doors, wormholes and the like.

 

 

1. Well, as seen in concept 1 I was thinking about it in a way where the book is hovering in mid-air in front of the Wizard (In essence: The Wizard wouldn't be holding the book at all). I personally think it could be an awesome way of handling a type of Wizard with a Sword. I want to highlight that further: A type of Wizard with a Sword, that is not excluding what I think people are asking for, a Wizard holding a sword in one hand and having the Grimoire in the other hand, or maybe even no Grimoire at all.

 

The Grimoire is just 1 medium is it not? A Wizard would be able to cast spells without a spellbook as well?

 

2. Fighters can't typically throw their swords indeed, but my statements weren't about Fighters, it was about Wizards. I can see a Wizard throw a sword like a "boomerang" by the use of magic.

 

3. About "visual aids", I need it because it makes it easier for me to explain and convey what I think and it makes it a lot easier (for me) to present some of my concepts. Some things I have trouble writing out in words, or I just stumble over words. It is easier for me sometimes to just draw a picture.

[moridin84]

Being able to throw swords at people from a distance isn't going to make anyone feel like a melee/warrior wizard. 

[Atreides]

How about summoning blades in my enemies?

[moridin84]

How about summoning blades in my enemies?

Isn't it the same thing?

[Lephys]

How about summoning blades in my enemies?

I don't see how you expect to reside within your enemy, much less summon anything once there.

 

[Osvir]

Being able to throw swords at people from a distance isn't going to make anyone feel like a melee/warrior wizard. 

 

Just out of curiosity... how often does a Jedi force throw his/her Lightsaber?

[Kalderas]

only with spells and weapon summons.

[Atreides]

 

How about summoning blades in my enemies?

I don't see how you expect to reside within your enemy, much less summon anything once there.

 

Teleporting blades into enemies from a distance, for example.  Teleportation could be a cool branch of magic.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Atreides