Russia tread

[Walsingham]

I don't see how an unskilled conscript army excuses anything. People deserve better than being used as cannon fodder.

 

[obyknven]

  :grin:    

 

Some Western people so hilarious. Remind me characters from "Bill, the Galactic Hero" by Garry Garrison.

 

Yet another guy looks like cloned Wals.

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ru/2013/12/mikhail-kalashnikov.html

 

I've been getting bombarded with the news that Mikhail Kalashnikov died today.  I'm not a bit torn.  I will not curse him but I will not mourn him either.

I've served and have had relatives that have served this nation since WW2.

The weapon he designed was aimed squarely at me and mine.

I know he made a switch to free market capitalism and gained fame in the gun community but I don't forget that easily.  Just like many ignore the fact that China is a communist nation that subjugates its people, yet have no problem in buying goods or trading with that country, many forget that Mikhail designed a weapon that directly affected them or their loved ones.

I won't forget that and neither should you

 

Or other epic Western gui is US defence minister James Forrestal, who was awakened by a siren in the middle of the night and jump into window exclaiming, "The Russians are attacking."

 

Ok, let's change theme. Some Russian animation for relax.

 

http://youtu.be/k2Mo6CQbF0M

[Malcador]

Well that's the fault of their commanders.  People can be treated like cannon fodder packing M16s or G3s, etc.

[Walsingham]

Well that's the fault of their commanders.  People can be treated like cannon fodder packing M16s or G3s, etc.

 

Well, they can, but the guns just won't work. You have to _train_ someone to use firearms. If you have to train them then you have to house them, and then you want to keep them. So you pay them a bit to stop them wandering off.

 

And the guns cost real money so you want to keep them from being stolen. So you build barracks, and separate the troops from the people.

 

You get me?

[Zoraptor]

Not really. If anything someone armed with an AK is far less cannon fodder than they were prior to the AK, indeed that is one of the main reasons Kalashnikov invented the thing, due to the experiences in the Great Patriotic War with unreliable and low firepower weapons. It's not like conscription or armies or training are new, all the AK did was make the average Joe with a few hours training at least theoretically comparable to a professional soldier in terms of firepower. If it were the AK41 instead of the AK47 there'd almost certainly be a lot less accusations of the Soviets treating their soldiers like cannon fodder because they'd have had the best personal weapon of the war by a mile, to illustrate the point.

 

Cannon fodder is that whether it's armed with AKs, Brown Besses or pitchforks. Sure, if you gave them over engineered weapons they'd stop working quite quickly but the genius of the AK is that they won't. Which, if you're part of that cannon fodder is an exceptionally good thing, not bad.

[Walsingham]

But not a good thing if you happen to be anyone the fodder are directed at.

 

The point is that you ...ah nuts to it. It's christmas.

[obyknven]

 

Well that's the fault of their commanders.  People can be treated like cannon fodder packing M16s or G3s, etc.

 

Well, they can, but the guns just won't work. You have to _train_ someone to use firearms. If you have to train them then you have to house them, and then you want to keep them. So you pay them a bit to stop them wandering off.

 

And the guns cost real money so you want to keep them from being stolen. So you build barracks, and separate the troops from the people.

 

You get me?

 

You describe typical African army. Separated from people, real money and other ****.

 

Dude, US and UK use mercenary armies (aka "professional" armies) only because one reason - people send GTFO own governments in 1968 with all these wars for "protecting homeland" somewhere in distant lands. IRL conscript armies much better than mercs, history prove this many times (Roman Empire, Thirty Years' and Seven Years' War, etc). Even today best Western army - Israel Defense Forces is conscript army and this is only reason why so small nation outnumbered by enemies not only survive, but even dominating in region.

[Walsingham]

*mouth _literally_ hanging open*

 

Conscript armies better than professional armies?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Shouldn't we be blaming the STG44?

[Agiel]

Because the conscript system has been working out *sooooo* well for the modern Russian military's needs:

 

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130313/179984970/Over-240000-Russian-Men-Dodged-Draft-Last-Year.html

http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/category/conscription/

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888238,00.html

[Mor]

You describe typical African army. Separated from people, real money and other ****.

 

Dude, US and UK use mercenary armies (aka "professional" armies) only because one reason - people send GTFO own governments in 1968 with all these wars for "protecting homeland" somewhere in distant lands. IRL conscript armies much better than mercs, history prove this many times (Roman Empire, Thirty Years' and Seven Years' War, etc). Even today best Western army - Israel Defense Forces is conscript army and this is only reason why so small nation outnumbered by enemies not only survive, but even dominating in region.

Its hard to follow up those threads, but I really hope you are not suggesting that Russian conscript army is better than USA army(in anything other than potato gathering)

 

 

Btw iirc the arab countries surrounding Israel also has/had conscript armies, so your example fall short.. also Israel victories attributed to the arab bickering.

[Monte Carlo]

AK47 is easy to use, cheap and reliable. Requires minimal maintenance. Smaller round means your terrorist / conscript / irregular can carry more ammo.

 

I've only fired the 47 and 74 a couple of times.

 

The SLR (FN-FAL for the rest of you) I am intimately familiar with. Needs more field-cleaning, *much* bigger round, longer range, only semi-auto.

 

Mind you, bigger calibre 'battle rifles' are back in fashion now, I think armies of the future will settle on a 7mm round or thereabouts.

 

The answer - to be a better marksman using small unit infantry tactics, the AK47 is easier to teach and use than the SLR. OTOH a trained squad with 7.62 rifles supported by a squad MG are a fearsome opponent. Apples and oranges, asymmetric warfare, advances in armour technologies and so on have changed the game.

 

As Wrath of Dagon says, the '47 is a blatant, more easily-produced copy of the StG '44 so blame the Nazis.

[obyknven]

AK47 is easy to use, cheap and reliable.

 

 

As Wrath of Dagon says, the '47 is a blatant, more easily-produced copy of the StG '44 so blame the Nazis.

  :grin:    

 

Its old cool stories for detecting newfags.

AK 47 exist only as a prototype  and never mass produced. True name of serial rifle is just AK.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-akm-e.html

 

And obviously AK have totally different construction in comparision with Stg-44, but profane ones known nothing about this and  make decision by appearance.

http://youtu.be/509SRLb5jHA

 

All local gun "experts" can begin hate me now.

[obyknven]

 

Its hard to follow up those threads, but I really hope you are not suggesting that Russian conscript army is better than USA army(in anything other than potato gathering)

It's depends from for wht army is needed for you. If for invading of small backward 'Stans - yes  US army is better ( network of bases and  especially designed for this task weapon, mercs dont ask questions). If for protect of Homeland - Russian army is better, nobody can't attack Russia ( in other words same result as US army do ), but price is extremely cheaper.

[obyknven]

Because the conscript system has been working out *sooooo* well for the modern Russian military's needs:

 

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130313/179984970/Over-240000-Russian-Men-Dodged-Draft-Last-Year.html

http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/category/conscription/

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888238,00.html

You dont understand what Russians talking about. Try read "Dead Souls" by Gogol firstly.

[Monte Carlo]

If you're telling me that the AK wasn't based on the StG/ MP44 then you can go back to your crack-house, pointless troll.

 

Please share your firearms bona fides, beyond perhaps two years of being beaten senseless in the Russian army whilst skull-phucked on anti-freeze.

[Zoraptor]

The AK is mechanically very different from the StG, which is the important part.

 

They look quite similar due to the curved mag and wooden stock and they're both identifiable as 'modern' assault rifles but that's about where the similarities stop. It's like saying that the Panther was based on the T34 as it incorporated some of the ideas from the T34, such as sloping armour and a decent high velocity gun from the get go. But the Panther was a fundamentally different tank despite the apparent similarities, and still had far more in common with other german tanks than with the russian one it was 'based' on.

[Malcador]

Shame they don't call the AR-15 family the same way people call AKs, by the designer names.  Imagine a byline of "armed with Stoners"

[Zoraptor]

Americans had an oddly prosaic naming convention for many of their weapons. It took the Brits multiple tries to get naming tanks after generals to stick and most of the weapons they did name after designers or manufacturers were militantly unpoetic. "Browning Automatic Rifle" could hardly be closer to "Beige Infantry Support Weapon" if it tried. And the current trend towards horrible, horrible recursive acronyms...

 

Though Russian and German weapons have the advantage of sounding exotic because they're foreign even when they are using generic type names. Panzerkampfwagon IV just sounds cool even if it only really means tank type IV to most practical purposes.

[Kroney]

.

Saddest Skyrim screenshot ever.

[Mor]

 

Its hard to follow up those threads, but I really hope you are not suggesting that Russian conscript army is better than USA army(in anything other than potato gathering)

It's depends from for wht army is needed for you. If for invading of small backward 'Stans - yes  US army is better ( network of bases and  especially designed for this task weapon, mercs dont ask questions). If for protect of Homeland - Russian army is better, nobody can't attack Russia ( in other words same result as US army do ), but price is extremely cheaper.

 

Maybe.... You see every country has an ethos. Going with your example above about Israel, theirs is their independence war, which is equated with David vs Goliath story(small guy wins the big foe), which has some truth to it true(at least until the first cease fire) but by large not very historical. Same here with Russia, over the years the developed the Myth of the Russian soldier spirit, that crushed the nazis and can do anything. Though its more like a tradition of incompetence and never ending excuses, where the mighty Russian always being raped, the Russian soldier is expandable and victories come by brute force. Like they were raped in the winter war, in ww2(thanks to external help they managed to keep it from becoming a route and eventual turning the tides), in Afghanistan and that shameful preformance in Chechnya.

 

"Mercs dont ask questions" - If you mean that the motivation behind wars is not always as noble as it plays on the news, I agree, its media era and everyone does it, including Russia. But if you imply that professional armies such as US army are immoral compared to Russian army, considering Russian record all I can give you is  Honestly, when ever I see puttin talking about human rights, its like:

 

 

 

Russia army is good, because unlike French, US, Israelis, they don't give a **** about costly precision weapons, they just go with brute force(because against crawbar(lom) there is no counter move) and they are big enough and strong enough so that no one speaks out too loud. Also conscript army in nation with nationalized news don't ask questions either, because they are told the answers.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Mor

[Walsingham]

I hope for your sake that you wrote that last post while having your face bitten by squirrels, Mor. Expandable Russian soldiers?

[Mor]

I hope for your sake that you wrote that last post while having your face bitten by squirrels, Mor. Expandable Russian soldiers?

No, just really in hurry, though it does feel that way when I try to read it... Still I believe that my point came across. (~Expendable)

[obyknven]

 Though its more like a tradition of incompetence and never ending excuses, where the mighty Russian always being raped, the Russian soldier is expandable and victories come by brute force. Like they were raped in the winter war, in ww2(thanks to external help they managed to keep it from becoming a route and eventual turning the tides), in Afghanistan and that shameful preformance in Chechnya.

 

Where you from? Just interesting, where yet so brainwash children's by such fat russophobic propaganda ( Last times when i see something similar is been Goebbels cool stories ).

Edited December 28, 2013 by Gorth
Slightly less explicit casualty pictures please...

[Walsingham]

 

I hope for your sake that you wrote that last post while having your face bitten by squirrels, Mor. Expandable Russian soldiers?

No, just really in hurry, though it does feel that way when I try to read it... Still I believe that my point came across. (~Expendable)

 

 

Ah. I see. i thought it was a kind of telescoping, russian-doll scenario.