Ciphers: Inspirations and their mechanics

[Hormalakh]

Hi all.

 

So of the various classes in PRoject Eternity, ciphers were one of the most highly anticipated, based on the rudimentary polling done in the General Discussion Forum.

 

So I wanted to hear everyone's ideas for mechanics and where the devs should get their mechanics ideas from when it comes to ciphers. Also, feel free to ask any questions here that you guys would want answered from the devs. Maybe, we can hlp each other out and find quotes to answer some questions.

 

Ciphers are uncommon and often misunderstood individuals with extraordinary mental abilities. Like wizards and priests, they have many talents that draw directly from their souls, but ciphers have the unique ability to peer through the spiritual energy of the world to manipulate other souls. While wizards use complex formulae in large tomes and priests tap into the passion of their faith, ciphers are able to operate directly through the power of their minds... and yours.

 

I personally wonder if ciphers will have consumable resources like "wounds" for the monks. How are ciphers going to be different than the other classes?

 

 

 

[morrow1nd]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed <---- Simplifies all i expect from the Cipher Class

[Hormalakh]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psion

 

Basically another "magic user" but without the magic. How are they going to play differently? Do they use "mana" to cast the known spells as often as they like? How many psionic disciplines will this game have?

 

I'm assuming most of the damage will be based off the "mental/willpower" defense. Will ciphers be the "divinators" of this game?

Edited January 22, 2013 by Hormalakh

[rjshae]

Since they are mental-power focused, concentration should probably be a significant factor for maintaining effects. The more effects they maintain, the less attention they can pay to their surroundings. That would provide a vulnerability that necessitates teaming up with others. Otherwise I could just picture them taking control of everything behind the scenes.

Edited January 22, 2013 by rjshae

[Hormalakh]

They can apparently use others' mental powers. So I wonder if the enemies', party members intelligence will affect how strong a cipher can be?

 

Ciphers "leeching" power from the mental energies of those that surround them. They're really powerful in a gathering of professors, but are really weak in a gathering of trolls.

[Hormalakh]

It would be interesting to have ciphers be the one class you couldn't "solo" as they are fairly weak alone. They could be balanced for a party of 6, and be fairly weak otherwise. If the party is less than 6, they would have to "leech" their strength from their enemies.

[maggotheart]

The class description makes it seem like Ciphers will have the ability to affect others minds so charm seems like an obvious one. It could be used in combat to enslave a monster or like a 'jedi mind trick' in conversation.

[morrow1nd]

Man i didnt like the idea of '' Weakest Solo Class'' for ciphers but for the Paladins ..  

 

- i'm just kidding btw .. No pun intented for Paladin fans...

 

- am i ? 

Edited January 22, 2013 by morrow1nd

[Hormalakh]

I've been reading some of the discipline powers available for psions in PathFinder and D&D 4e: a lot of them seem really difficult to implement in game. Does anyone else realize this too? Many of them are also just spells with a different name.

[maggotheart]

Chanters could have an ability they can turn on that continuously drains stamina but disrupts enemy abilities. So they chant loudly and it causes enemy spellcasters to have a chance to fumble their spells, warriors mess up their power attacks and so on.

Edited January 22, 2013 by maggotheart

[Somna]

They can apparently use others' mental powers. So I wonder if the enemies', party members intelligence will affect how strong a cipher can be?

 

Ciphers "leeching" power from the mental energies of those that surround them. They're really powerful in a gathering of professors, but are really weak in a gathering of trolls.

 

Given the "Cipher in fullplate using short range willpower attacks" that Josh commented, I'm expecting that there may be reasons for the class to get in close.  They may be required to be within a close range to affect the mental state of souls. 

 

As for a unique mechanic, I was thinking slightly similarly -- their abilities depend on the number of souls near them; the more souls in range of their abilities, the more effective their abilities are.  They don't necessarily have to affect everything with the ability though.

[Inertia]

I'm expecting.... psylocke style mind blades.

[rjshae]

I could see ciphers having a limited form of mental invisibility: causing a target to completely ignore his presence. Another power could force the target to focus completely on their current task, making it more vulnerable to flank attacks. The cipher might be able to drain the mental capabilities of a dying creature, gaining temporary skill bonuses.

 

Ciphers could have a mental attack capability against any thinking target; success lowers the willpower defenses against other cipher powers. The drawback is that the attack takes time to be successful, and trained beings may have learned mental defenses that make the task even more difficult.

[Hormalakh]

So, now we have a little more to work with! Based on the update from today this is what we have so far:

 

Cipher powers often gain intensity as they maintain focus. Their basic Mind Jab starts as a minor irritant but can build to inflict devastating damage.

 

I wanted to put in an idea that Somna and I thought of here. I also mentioned it in the update thread.

 

"Ciphers: Geometric upscaling could be one "ability." Geometric downscaling could be another.

 

Psionic Nexus: The more "sentient beings" within an area, the more powerful the attack. As beings go unconscious/die, the power of this ability/attack decreases. This encourages players to try to keep as many enemies alive, while reducing their stamina (of all enemies) equally. It is counter-intuitive since most players like destroying enemies one at a time and reducing the number of enemies attacking. It is sort of a balance question (should I kill off these enemies and start focusing down on single enemies or should I keep the minions alive to help power-up my ability?). You can further adjust this based on monster intellect/wisdom/charisma. Other adjustments could be made."

[Lephys]

I like the implications, Hormalakh, 8D.

 

It makes me think of debilitating "debuff" type abilities for the Cipher... like, an ability that forcibly "sticks" or muddles (for lack of a better word) enemies' souls together in a certain area, causing confusion or dazing or some other form of "random," unoptimal AI behavior for a duration. The more beings within the area of effect, the more intense the effect/longer the duration.

 

Other things could be distance-based. Even within the duration-potency scaling (the Mind Jab example). Maybe the closer you are to the target, the more quickly the ability gains focus/intensity?

[TRX850]

I'm thinking Ciphers could capitalize on "the power of suggestion", i.e. planting illusion-type effects in the minds of their opponents, and among other things, affecting enemy positioning on the battlefield. If a Cipher "suggests" a fireball illusion, it could make enemies scatter or disrupt their spellcasting. Same with suggesting a summoned frost giant has joined the battle, distracting front-line enemies and causing enemy spellcasters to waste offensive spells (assuming they were unable to detect the illusion).

 

So in a way, they could emulate illusionist wizards, but they would have to concentrate on each suggestion/illusion, rather than "fire-and-forget".

[Lephys]

^ I think that's good for a specialization within professional Ciphery, but I think restricting them to purely mind-effects is a bit too narrow. That's not to say you were strongly suggesting they do nothing but mental things... I've just seen the idea come up a lot in various topics.

 

So far as I know, the official description says that they directly affect souls, not necessarily "minds." So, like I said, I like the idea of illusionary/hallucinationary evocation within the mind, as a facet of Cipher capabilities.

[TRX850]

Yes, just one example there. Do we know much about souls yet, and how they could be manipulated? (Apart from what's already in the wiki I mean). It has to translate into a useable mechanic so it can be compared to other effects like combat and spellcasting at least.

Edited January 23, 2013 by TRX850

[Hormalakh]

Another ability, this one is modal:

 

Mind meld: You and an ally/companion meld your minds to increase cipher damage/strength. This is an active modal ability. It makes cipher attacks more powerful. If either the companion or the cipher are knocked unconscious during the mind meld: both characters become unconscious. It takes a short amount of time to connect/disconnect from another companion's mind meld, so be careful when companions are close to being unconscious. Also mental bonuses (increased wisdom, clear-thinking, true seeing, etc) are shared between the two companions, but mental maluses are also shared.

[Sacred_Path]

Another ability, this one is modal:

 

Mind meld: You and an ally/companion meld your minds to increase cipher damage/strength. This is an active modal ability. It makes cipher attacks more powerful. If either the companion or the cipher are knocked unconscious during the mind meld: both characters become unconscious. It takes a short amount of time to connect/disconnect from another companion's mind meld, so be careful when companions are close to being unconscious. Also mental bonuses (increased wisdom, clear-thinking, true seeing, etc) are shared between the two companions, but mental maluses are also shared.

 

I'd love it if this was only possible between ciphers. Anything that encourages exotic party setups (like several ciphers) is good. O herro 6 cipher party with ultra-powerful willpower attacks who all fall unconscious together

[Hormalakh]

Might be nice to have it be more powerful with ciphers mind melded. These are rough sketch ideas. The point is for devs to see it and mold the ideas into something nice. I encourage everyone to add their own ideas. Just please keep the word count down, so they're quick to read. And a new post for each idea. Don't spit everything out all at once. It basically confirms that I any many others won't read it.

[Acre]

Maybe ciphers could sacrifice physical mobility for expanded psychic influence. For example, as the ciphers abilities grow in intensity or affect more and more enemies, their move/attack speed and reflex saves drop until they can do nothing but stand completely still, furrowing the brows of their oversized, pulsating craniums.

[Nonek]

The Clouded Mind - The Cipher distracts those who look upon him, they suddenly have an urge to look elsewhere. Aids sneaking tremendously and at higher levels could become almost a cloak of invisibility.

 

Disorient - Like the strongest of hallucinogens, the Cipher sends the targets mind into delicious or demonic fever dreams. At low levels this would be a shaken head and a few blinks, as the target finds his focus ruined. At higher levels a man can be trapped in his own mind, You're in the matrix Neo.

 

The Shadow Knows - The Cipher asks a number of banal and pointless questions, each a careful probing attack against a mind. If the targets willpower cannot resist him, then he steals information from their mind.

 

Alas Poor Schmuck - The Cipher converses with a restless soul, but the veil of death is hard to pierce and all too soon his willpower is shattered from piercing that barrier. At higher levels he can call forth the dead, to experience the thrill of life once again, though ultimately they find this unsatisfying.

 

Bide With Me - Death can wait. The Cipher grasps the soul of a close acquaintance, someone he knows well, and does not allow it to join the great wheel. Hoping that the body may be healed while the soul tarries. This is a high level ability, and there is the risk of undeath occuring.

 

Find The Lady - Who needs sleight of hand? A turned card, the value of a coin, the look of a face, all can be altered for a few moments for those with an awoken mind.

 

Duel - Two Ciphers lock minds and attempt to break each others willpower, so that they might destroy or dominate their opponents minds. They battle in a landscape of pure imagination, and with weapons limited only by their own perception. Those approaching two duelling souls are repulsed and terrified in equal measures, something sickening is occuring.

 

Edit: Sorry Hormalakh, didn't notice your above post.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Nonek

[Amentep]

The Clouded Mind - The Cipher distracts those who look upon him, they suddenly have an urge to look elsewhere. Aids sneaking tremendously and at higher levels could become almost a cloak of invisibility.

  

The Shadow Knows - The Cipher asks a number of banal and pointless questions, each a careful probing attack against a mind. If the targets willpower cannot resist him, then he steals information from their mind.

 

Only if I get to wear a black slouch hat, crimson scarf, black cloak with crimson lining and wield twin .45s automatics...

 

"The Weed of Crime Bears Bitter Fruit..."

 

Edited January 23, 2013 by Amentep

[Hormalakh]

The Shadow Knows - The Cipher asks a number of banal and pointless questions, each a careful probing attack against a mind. If the targets willpower cannot resist him, then he steals information from their mind.

 

Bide With Me - Death can wait. The Cipher grasps the soul of a close acquaintance, someone he knows well, and does not allow it to join the great wheel. Hoping that the body may be healed while the soul tarries. This is a high level ability, and there is the risk of undeath occuring.

 

I really like these two. I like that the Cipher can have non-combat abilities like The Shadow Knows. It might be a nice way to get information from enemies about patrols in the whereabouts and maybe some information about enemies in the area.

 

The second one is like a "hold on until the paladin gets here! Kind of thing. Very cool idea.