Barbarians: inspiration and mechanics

[Nonek]

How about masks? The Barbarian hides his face in combat behind a painted and decorated mask, that lets him commune and call forth the fury of his ancestor spirits and dance the spears. The mask represents a revered long dead kinsman, each with a story and an in game bonus, so that as the barbarian grows stronger he makes use of the semblances of greater ancestral spirits. Until perhaps a spirit mask grows forth from his flesh when angered, and he is transformed into his own raging spirit warrior, a living ancestor?

 

Perhaps it could even be reflected in the worlds lore, a popular saying could be: "As dangerous as a masked Glenfathan."

[Alexjh]

How about masks? The Barbarian hides his face in combat behind a painted and decorated mask, that lets him commune and call forth the fury of his ancestor spirits and dance the spears. The mask represents a revered long dead kinsman, each with a story and an in game bonus, so that as the barbarian grows stronger he makes use of the semblances of greater ancestral spirits. Until perhaps a spirit mask grows forth from his flesh when angered, and he is transformed into his own raging spirit warrior, a living ancestor?

 

Perhaps it could even be reflected in the worlds lore, a popular saying could be: "As dangerous as a masked Glenfathan."

 

The only thing I'd say about that general concept is that while I like the idea of having some ancestor themes in the barbarian, I think that sounds a bit too rigid as a class feature, and the growing forth bit seems a bit melodramatic for my tastes. But the general concept does seem interesting, but I'd tone it down a little personally. I'd have it as a specific line of optional skills within barbarian to unlock this rather then be a core class feature, but have a little fun with it.

Perhaps an ability you can learn where you can temporarily channel a randomly generated spirit of another barbarian ancestor into yourself so instead of rage boosting your attributes you gain a selection of temporary random skills from this ancestor. If you. Are ever in a circumstance where you are a bit stuck it serves as a bit of a lucky dip. Monks could also benefit from a power like that though and you wouldn't want them both to have it.

[Adhin]

To rigid and a bit to voodoo oriented. Don't know of any berserk like stuff that would fit a mask. Though the Barb/Psion I mentioned always had a blood red skull helmet (actual skull).

 

-edit-

I could see a quick and dirty face paint thing... but yeah I just... I dunno. I figure anything like that should be a minor moral boost like thing (like 'bless' from clerics in 3E, +1 to a buncha stuff). To me, the thing about Berserkers or Barbarians or whatever you want to call it, the idea of calling on anothers power is a weakness. They fight to prove them selves, not use someone elses power to fight, you can't prove your self on a cruch. Really need to keep that level of mentality alive with this class or a lot of it gets lost.

 

In relation to Ancestors they'd fight to prove them selves to them, instead of using there power as there own. That's more of a weak mans approach. Priest, for instance are powerful but in DnD at least, they're that way because something else is allowing them to be through devotion. Barbarian, like a Psion, is sheer power through there own will and physical prowess and nothing else.

 

A Priest prays for it, a Fighter learns it, rogues play dirty (and from behind).. Barbarians are through brute force and will power.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Adhin

[Nonek]

Got to agree with both your points, it would take a lot of jiggery pokery and in game tailoring to suit such an idea to a culture, and have it remain viable.

[Adhin]

I do like the idea of power boosts via some kinda face related stuff. I'd throw out some kinda scottsman face paint crazitry (which, I may point out, shows up in the vast majority of cultures in ancient times to some extent). Less ancestor more 'quick war face paint' thing for some bonuses, could easily be a 1 use/day that lasts a few 'hours'?

 

-edit-

Could be a moral boosts for face paint or face closed helmets or some such... that would all have to be passive and item based I'd imagine.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Adhin

[Hormalakh]

So now that we have some more information on barbarians: I thought I'd add that information here and we could think of some suggestions for barbarian abilities/talents.

 

  Barbarians can use Wild Sprint a limited number of times per day, allowing them to rapidly rush across the battlefield to a distant target while ignoring hazards along the way.

[Adhin]

Yeah I was happy to read they have a limited use rush ability instead of just a static 10% movement bonuses. It's more of a thing you think of then, when to use it, why to use it. Reminds me of Charge in D2 (or you know, bullrushing in DnD). I mean basic use is 'oh look enemies, rush em!' but it can be used to cut off enemies trying to circle around to the squishies. You know sometimes you get the situations where they go for the mage, everyones walking at the same speed and your fighter type can't overrun them to block... well a Barbarian in PE can.

 

Love that, it's not quite my Barb/Psions example of just teleporting in the way but that's a perfect analog for it. Kinda disapointed its use/day instead of use/encounter though. Seems a bit silly he can only Wild Sprint a few times per day but a mage could throw out magic bolts 5 times every encounter... maybe it'll transfer to per encounter or just plane change it to per encounter so its more of a staple.

 

Like as an example, Monks 3E, Stunning blow. 1 use per monk lvl, ends up getting out of hand, that kinda crap should just be smaller number of uses per encounter instead of 'well you got 20 uses.. space it out?' rather just be able to do it 3 times per fight, more limitation on the small scale but less on the big... per encounter was one of the few great things 4E did (along with health progression which I still prefer being less crazy but... yeah).

 

So yeah heres hoping it becomes per-encounter eventually or from the get go, number of speedy runs per days a bit limiting for that kind of thing.

[Hormalakh]

I think the balancing issues will work out during game testing. I would love it if these mechanics/inspiration threads would be places where we would write abilities/talents that would be interesting for the devs to add to the game. I'd just suggest people keep the posts short and suggest one ability/talent at a time, so that people can read them separately and reply to them separately.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Hormalakh

[rjshae]

 

So now that we have some more information on barbarians: I thought I'd add that information here and we could think of some suggestions for barbarian abilities/talents.

 

  Barbarians can use Wild Sprint a limited number of times per day, allowing them to rapidly rush across the battlefield to a distant target while ignoring hazards along the way.

 

I'm thinking of two uses for this ability:

1. Point man to draw in the enemy
2. Fire brigade

[FeloniusMonk]

I've always considered the Barbarian as the Alternative Warrior to the polished  discipline of the Fighter. Whereas the Fighter relies on training, tactics, and a precise honing of a particular skill set, the Barbarian represents resourcefulness through raw experience, strength and versatility through emotion, and unorthodox strategies as a result of limiting circumstances.

I don't find an issue with someone using a Barbarian in "Here's a 20lb Battleaxe, turn your rage lights on, and cut someone's torso in two," mode. That's one form of Barbarian, and people can decide which form they play. Also I don't find issue with the word "Barbarian," not only because it's a classic, but because it's become one of those catch all terms for a particular style of play. The original poster mentioned that the Barbarian should get an intelligence bonus because the cultures from which the Barbarian class was derived exhibited a great amount of ingenuity and intelligence. While this is true, doesn't necessarily mean that every memeber of this culture was multi-lingual, and an outdoors scientist. On the contrary, the majority of people, like in Western culture were most likely extremely ignorant. That said, the Barbarian should have a little more available in the brains department to reflect a trade or whatever contribution they made in their society.

 

But opening up some of the Barbarian's defining ability up to player intepretation might help expand the perspective people have of what makes a Barbarian, for example the Emotion Based "Rage" ability should be slightly tweaked to invite diversity:

 

Per encounter Emotion-based Ability: Choose one of three at Character Creation

 

Rage-Once per encounter, Activated mode

You have learned to draw on the fires and turmoil that have defined an extremely brutal life.

Grants player bonus to strength, fortitude, and speed for a short time.

 

Courage-Once per encounter, Passive ability*

Your willingness to singlehandedly jump in and take on the bulk of the fray both inspires your allies, and confounds your foes

Grants Players Allies a small bonus to attack and defense

*Only activated when player is surrounded by three or more foes.

 

Fear-Once Per Encounter, Area of Effect ability

Survival in the darkest outreaches of civilization has made fear an ever looming presence in your world and your closest ally

Grants the player the ability to momentarily cause panic among enemy bands

[Silhouetteless]

So yeah heres hoping it becomes per-encounter eventually or from the get go, number of speedy runs per days a bit limiting for that kind of thing.

 

I could definately see it as being "per-encounter." The way I would like to see it is that the player gets the most basic abilities as "per-encounter." Ex: Wizard gets "Magic Missle," or a Rouge gets something like an "Epic Dodge" some many times per encounter. I could see the more extensive abilities as "per-day." In the example of wizards something like "Gate" or "Meteor" should only be cast once per day. In the example of the rouge maybe something like an assassin's "Death Attack"

 

As for the barbarians the rage ability could become toggleable during an encounter? I think it would be interesting if a number of abilities could only be activated per day and under the event that rage was toggled on.  My vision of Rage would provide more serious bonuses and penalties but have no after effects. Example: Maybe he gets +4 str, +6 con +2 will saves +4 attack damage -4 attack bonus -4 ac and provide access to a number of "rage only abilities". This way, chosing to activate rage is a tactical decision. Sure, it lets you do a ton of damage and gives you access to these abilities, but if these abilities can only be activated "per day" you're going to see a natural disposition to using it every encounter because you might not have your "per-day" abilities accessible. And if you don't have your abilities accessible you can see that there would be a disposition to using a toggleable ability like Rage every fight. It would be great to use it in instances where you're fighting Xvarts, or Gibberlings or Bandits. You'd clear those in less than thirty seconds. Or in fights with a lot of wizards / clerics, the will save bonus could prove more useful than the -4 is hurtful. But in instances where there are a lot of fighters, the barbarian might need the ability to hit and their ac bonus.

 

tl;dr: Thoughts on a togglable "Rage" ability and having "Per-Day" abilities only usable when Rage is activated?

[rjshae]

or a Rouge gets something like an "Epic Dodge" some many times per encounter.

 

There's that bloody rouge again. They ought to lock up that cursed vagabond for painting the town red.

 

Maybe they should put a Rouge character in the game as an inside joke?

Edited January 23, 2013 by rjshae

[TRX850]

There's that bloody rouge again. They ought to lock up that cursed vagabond for painting the town red.

 

By night, a dandy highwayman. By day, a door-to-door cosmetics salesman.

 

Because even a thief needs a "real job" sometimes.

[Lephys]

 

There's that bloody rouge again. They ought to lock up that cursed vagabond for painting the town red.

 

By night, a dandy highwayman. By day, a door-to-door cosmetics salesman.

 

Because even a thief needs a "real job" sometimes.

 

Isn't a salesman just a thief who only steals during business transactions?

 

"Of COURSE this is a good price! This thing is DEFINITELY worth 60 gold! *hands over item worth only 10 gold... just stole 50 gold*"

 

It's like sleight-of-mind!

 

Really, though, regarding the per-encounter/per-rest issue with things like Wild Sprint, what if EVERYthing had a per-encounter limit, but certain things ALSO had per-rest limits? That way, you could have 20 Wild Sprints per-day, but you wouldn't run into all 20 being used in one encounter, followed by 5 more Wild-Sprint-less encounters before the next rest area, with a pouty player the whole way. Sure, maybe that player deserves it, but, you ALSO won't have that person who's like "I don't know how long it'll be 'til I can rest again... better only use like 1 of these per battle, u_u," only to get to the next rest area with 15 Wild Sprints left.

 

*shrug*. We could also just deal with it and gauge things as best we can, I suppose.

 

Also, I don't know about specific abilities, but I think the Barbarian should get bonuses to the effectiveness of certain attacks/abilities/passive-effects for the more enemies engaging him at once. Not tanky stuff, though. He's not HOLDING OFF those enemies. But, the threat of 5 people coming at you would, I think, give you sort of an intensity-of-the-situation boost to adrenaline/aggressiveness, if your whole fighting style was based around aggressiveness.

 

You've even got 3 possibilities there, just off the top of my head, for different sort of style specializations:

 

A) The greater number of foes currently facing/surrounding you, the greater your bonuses.

B) The more often you change targets, the greater your bonuses/the longer you maintain bonuses. Maybe they drop off if you focus on a single target for too long (more than just a 2nd subsequent hit... maybe 3 or 4 times. The goal isn't to make you change targets on LITERALLY every single attack/ability use.)

C) The more you focus on the same target (with subsequent attacks/combos), the greater your bonus climbs. I know this is similar to what they said about Cipher abilities, but that sounded like the focused maintenance of abilities (like Void Rays beams in Starcraft) rather than "the more times you hit/use various abilities on the same target."

 

Just some thoughts.

[Adhin]

Sounds like a stamina/health system for per-use abilities. Kinda would rather it be the actual split personally. I just think running fast isn't one of those things you'd do once a day but I think they're making it as more of a running teleport. like ME2-3 Vanguard Charge where its not 'really' a teleport, but it might as well be with how fast your moving and ignoring everything on your path. So in that regard I can kinda understand per-day uses... kinda depends how it functions and all that.

 

As for the 3 types of 'emotion based power' 1 of which is rage (so the other 2 are rage replacements). I kind of like the idea, but the courage one sounds like what the Paladin will end up doing with his war shouts (bolster moral and lower enemy moral) and anyone in a rage should have that fear thing, if they're truely furious enough. I do like the idea of kinda making a choice at lvl 1 as to what kind you want (and then maybe later on the ability to spent a talent to get the others). But... I dunno, I think they'd have to be different takes on rage or something that doesn't tread to much into another classes territory.

 

-edit-

As per the 'higher bonuses with number of enemies' thing... Yes. I always love mechanics like that with Berserk like classes (and often build then towards that if given the option). I also have a tendency to, awkwardly, focus on singular target abilities even with in that which... well whatever that's jsut some bizar tendency I have. Either way already mentioned that kinda thing earlier in the thread, and big supporter of stat bonuses for barb like classes due to fighting more then 1 enemy.

 

-2nd-edit cause... yeah-

Just remembered another thing... bonuses from kills (short term). 10-20 second buff due to a kill, stacks/resets timer up to a certain extent. Well, maybe not stacks but.. yeah. I could easily see this being a passive upgrade to rage where, when your in a rage, if you get a kill, you get some kind of bolstering effect... either little stamina refresh or speed/dmg bonus or something. Either way stuff based off getting a kill to get said bonus definitely something I also think fits Barb style gameplay.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Adhin

[FeloniusMonk]

Sounds like a stamina/health system for per-use abilities. Kinda would rather it be the actual split personally. I just think running fast isn't one of those things you'd do once a day but I think they're making it as more of a running teleport. like ME2-3 Vanguard Charge where its not 'really' a teleport, but it might as well be with how fast your moving and ignoring everything on your path. So in that regard I can kinda understand per-day uses... kinda depends how it functions and all that.

 

As for the 3 types of 'emotion based power' 1 of which is rage (so the other 2 are rage replacements). I kind of like the idea, but the courage one sounds like what the Paladin will end up doing with his war shouts (bolster moral and lower enemy moral) and anyone in a rage should have that fear thing, if they're truely furious enough. I do like the idea of kinda making a choice at lvl 1 as to what kind you want (and then maybe later on the ability to spent a talent to get the others). But... I dunno, I think they'd have to be different takes on rage or something that doesn't tread to much into another classes territory.

 

-edit-

As per the 'higher bonuses with number of enemies' thing... Yes. I always love mechanics like that with Berserk like classes (and often build then towards that if given the option). I also have a tendency to, awkwardly, focus on singular target abilities even with in that which... well whatever that's jsut some bizar tendency I have. Either way already mentioned that kinda thing earlier in the thread, and big supporter of stat bonuses for barb like classes due to fighting more then 1 enemy.

 

-2nd-edit cause... yeah-

Just remembered another thing... bonuses from kills (short term). 10-20 second buff due to a kill, stacks/resets timer up to a certain extent. Well, maybe not stacks but.. yeah. I could easily see this being a passive upgrade to rage where, when your in a rage, if you get a kill, you get some kind of bolstering effect... either little stamina refresh or speed/dmg bonus or something. Either way stuff based off getting a kill to get said bonus definitely something I also think fits Barb style gameplay.

You're right, something like "Courage" would overlap with what we've seen of the Paladin's special abilities. I suppose the other two can be tweaked to just reflect something else besides "Rage," giving the people the option to play a Barbarian with a slight tactical and roleplaying twist. Ideally all those abilities would be contingent with the Sprint ability.

 

Perhaps focusing on a different bonus aspects besides strength and stamina would make things a little more interesting.

[Barothmuk]

As someone who was one of the 9 people who voted barbarian in the poll mentioned in the OP this is something that is relevant to my interests. I too hope that Obsidian doesn't stick too closely to the common stereotyping of "barbarian = Conan" and instead looks for other sources of inspiration. Two ideas the OP put forth that I really liked were the language thing and the faction thing.

 

Speaking of which I know Obsidian has hinted at a faction system of sorts but do we actually know if languages will be a skill/mechanic? I'm hoping so.

[rjshae]

Speaking of which I know Obsidian has hinted at a faction system of sorts but do we actually know if languages will be a skill/mechanic? I'm hoping so.

 

I suspect not. It sounded like they may not want skills to be the determining factor in what conversation options (plot branches) you can access. Languages would be almost entirely about limiting who you can converse with or what information you can obtain. Including language skills may actually be detrimental to the game.

[rjshae]

To me there's very little to distinguish the historic roles of barbarian and ranger, other than their cultures. So I'd speculate that culture is where you want to find the key differentiator for this class. The barbarian often comes from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, so he is inured to physical hardships and can push himself well past the limits of the softer civilized peoples. His gods are the nature gods; wind, mountain, river, and the beasts. He would commune with nature and may identify himself with a particular creature type. When he goes to war, it's more about physical courage, battle prowess, and native cunning, than about martial discipline and methodical tactics. He'll seek out a foe for a one-on-one battle, then try to overwhelm the opponent with power and speed.

[Osvir]

braiinztorm:

- Bulky
- Strong
- Fast (Wild Sprint)
- Hard
- Dual-Wield
- Good boozer
- Vulgar
- Meat-eater
- Two-Handed
- Firebreath
- Smelly Breath (Dirty Breath)
- Fart (yeyeye w/e I think it can be both fun and... okok only comical really)
- Tame Animal
- Stampede
- Hulk Smash
- Rage
- Battle-cry
- Shockwave
- Flex Muscles
- Leap
- Weapon Abilities
- Unarmed Abilities
- Body Abilities

- Elemental Abilities

* Fire = Channeling, standing still, the Barbarian can gather in their diaphragm an immense heat and [Firebreath]
* Earth = Rock Throw, Golem-Skin or The Thing Skin etc. etc.
* Water = Not applicable.
* Wind = Not applicable.

[rjshae]

Battle Roar-once per encounter, Activated mode

While fighting one-on-one, the barbarian can attempt to awe his opponent. This is an aggresive performance that typically consist of an intimidating stance combined with an animalistic roar or challenge. On a success, the barbarian can perform an all-out attack against that foe without lowering his defense rating. However, the defensive penalty for an all-out attack is still applied if the barbarian is then attacked by another opponent.

Edited January 25, 2013 by rjshae

[Failion]

Always seen barbarians as warriors with more stamina then the norm. I don't see them as the dnd interpretation roid raging warriors that get tired after they exert themselves. They should be the last ones that fatigue in a fight. And they are easy to it warriors because they are arrogant and accustomed to their own traditional way of fighting.

[Lephys]

Always seen barbarians as warriors with more stamina then the norm. I don't see them as the dnd interpretation roid raging warriors that get tired after they exert themselves. They should be the last ones that fatigue in a fight. And they are easy to it warriors because they are arrogant and accustomed to their own traditional way of fighting.

 

 

Well... it kinda makes sense, because it happens in reality, too. People can do some amazing things in desperate times/on adrenaline. But then, when that wears off, it turns out you've been beyond your physical limits for longer than you usually are ever even AT them before getting tired. It's like... when you have the flu... your body's doing WAY more stuff to fight off the flu virus, in addition to still processing all your thoughts and senses and allowing you to move around and do things. Until it stops (and usually for a little while after), you're quite tired and fatigued.

 

Also, "arrogant" might be a bit much on the personality restriction. If every single Barbarian, ever, was an arrogant ****, that would be a strangely boring group of people.

[Osvir]

- Adrenaline

Sounds like "Wounds" but for the Barbarian.

Off-Topic~
Will different Classes have different [battle Resources] to spend?
* Monk with [Wound]
* Barbarian with [Adrenaline]???
* Rogue with [Energy]???
* Wizard with [Mana]???
etc.etc.

[Lephys]

- Adrenaline

 

Sounds like "Wounds" but for the Barbarian.

 

 

Yeah. I was immediately thinking that when we learned about Wounds for the Monk class, because that's a concept often used with the Barbarian/berzerker concept. The more damage you take, the more reckless abandon you gain, sort of... Kind of like a fighting style that relishes survival instinct and its biological effects on physical capabilities.

 

So, I was thinking that a possible mechanic for the Barbarian could stem from his OFFENSE building his adrenaline/aggression, rather than his opponents' offense. That would still provide a mechanic/effect in tune with the aggression-dependent fighting style of Barbarians, while still setting them apart from the Monk class in terms of how the mechanics function.

 

A Monk still doesn't want to wade into the most enemies possible because you have a very limited amount of Wounds, which emphasizes control rather than pure aggression. But the Barbarian could have skills/abilities built around the direct confrontation of more enemies than any "normal" melee fighter would, supporting boosts to his combat effectiveness through aggression. The limitation could still be a combination of a cap on the aggression bonus AND a duration after which fatigue starts to set in. Maybe if you go too long, he has to take a knee for like 6 seconds in combat. Almost like a self-stun, mechanically. But it would be avoidable by simply not over-doing his aggression-building abilities. It wouldn't be "Just stop attacking things for a short duration, to avoid getting fatigued for a short duration." That would be self-defeating, heh.

 

It's kind of like how Stamina will work. If you have 50 stamina, you can take 48 damage, then "heal" up a bit back up to 25, then take 20 more damage. So you can take more than 50 damage, you just can't let your Stamina reach 0, or you lost consciousness. As long as the Barbarian's aggression/adrenaline didn't "max out," so to speak, he wouldn't ever suffer a hard stun-like effect. Maybe if it's beyond 70% or something (or maybe for too long?), he suffers minor fatigue penalties to things like movement speed and/or attack damage? (while still attacking probably faster and more effectively striking multiple targets than a typical Fighter would.)

 

*shrug* Just my .5 cents.