Spellcasting

[TRX850]

Here are some suggestions for spellcasting in P:E. Please add ideas that you think would suit the game.

 

First off, I'd like to see spells project their Area-of-Effect Marker on the ground, before you cast-confirm them, like in NWN2. Because I need to know if I'm about to barbecue my friends with this fireball spell as well as those pesky ice trolls.

 

I understand if some folks would rather play it old school without the AoE marker, because learning how spells behave was always part of the appeal. So maybe just have it toggleable in the gameplay options? Some players might use it for a while, then voluntarily disable it later, or vice versa.

 

 

This example is in NWN2/3D of course. I just mean project the marker onto the isometric background in P:E.

 

 

Secondly, Buffing Spell Chains. I mentioned this in the Readied Actions post but will re-summarise it here. I wonder if it's possible to see a small extension to the spellbook UI where you can add a string of buffing spells to a list -- a spell chain -- order them however you see fit, and save them to that list so that when you anticipate a battle or the need to buff, you click the "spell chain" button on your main game UI for that character, who then begins casting in the order you specified. As long as you have all the spells in your current spell pool, it will cast all of them in sequence. If any are missing, it'll skip to the next one.

 

This is not to be confused with Spell Sequencers, where you pre-cast a chain of spells into a robe or other magical accoutrement so that they all trigger instantaneously at a later command. I don't mean that.

 

The purpose of the buff chain is to both save time and to ensure a level of consistency when you need to cast the same pattern of buffs many times over during gameplay. And of course, as you gain new spells, you simply adjust the spell chain as you see fit.

 

Maybe there could be 2 or 3 optional spell chain buttons on the UI for different spell arrangements? And if I were to really push the boat out, it'd be cool if on the spellbook UI, it showed you spell stats like casting time and spell duration, so you could assign long-duration spells first, and short-duration spells last, for optimum efficiency. I imagine the UI would also require target settings for each spell, such as Caster, Centered on Party, Party Leader, etc.

 

An example using IWD2 spell stats.

 

 

 

Of course, you don't have to use it. You can keep buffing manually the way it's always been done.

 

What are some spellcasting features you would like to see in Project Eternity?

Edited January 12, 2013 by TRX850

[rjshae]

Here are some suggestions for spellcasting in P:E. Please add ideas that you think would suit the game.

 

First off, I'd like to see spells project their Area-of-Effect Marker on the ground, before you cast-confirm them, like in NWN2. Because I need to know if I'm about to barbecue my friends with this fireball spell as well as those pesky ice trolls.

 

I understand if some folks would rather play it old school without the AoE marker, because learning how spells behave was always part of the appeal. So maybe just have it toggleable in the gameplay options? Some players might use it for a while, then voluntarily disable it later, or vice versa.

 

 

This example is in NWN2/3D of course. I just mean project the marker onto the isometric background in P:E.

I think ToEE did this right, by giving you an overlay that you could move around until you were happy with the placement.

 

 

Of course, some might argue that you wouldn't have this in real life and would have to aim by eye, but I think that would be relying on your skill rather than the skill of the character.

 

I didn't like the default way they did spell effects in NWN2: causing spells to only damage enemies, even if you targeted your own group. The NWN series did have some nice spell effects though; hopefully we'll see something comparable in P:E.

Edited January 12, 2013 by rjshae

[Lephys]

I think that if you want to do it without any kind of marker/indicator, that's pretty much a personal challenge. Like rjshae said, your character will know where he's casting the spell, so the player should at least be allowed to know by default. Option toggle is fine by me, but I wouldn't want to have to guess.

 

Also, on the note of those little ground-hugging AOE markers, I sincerely hope they don't make them targeted directly to the cursor, with the cursor defaulting to foreground objects/surfaces, and call it a day. How annoying is it when you want to target that group of enemies near the wall, and you move one pixel over, and the entire 15-foot AOE circle leaps up to the next floor. It should stay on the same floorspace until you've made it clear you want it to hug a different plane. More of a minor complaint, really...

 

Also, spellcasting's great, but it's the spell-reeling-in that's the hard part.

[rjshae]

Spell Mastery - many of the basic spells come with built-in limitations, but the game allow the character to find rare tomes that teach better methods of casting the spell. This is an accomplishment that allows the higher level wizard to cast an improved version of low level spells.

[Lephys]

Spell Mastery - many of the basic spells come with built-in limitations, but the game allow the character to find rare tomes that teach better methods of casting the spell. This is an accomplishment that allows the higher level wizard to cast an improved version of low level spells.

 

On that note, I'd love to see the improved version have some options to it. Honestly, the Mass Effect (2 and 3) system for upgrading your abilities was a really nice version of this. It was pretty basic ("streamlined," they might've called it), but the general idea was awesome. This also directly supports spells having multiple utilities to them.

 

I just think something like casting 5 magic missiles that can each be individually-targeted at a higher level is much more indicative of the difference in spell mastery/power than my piddly Firebolt doing 30% more damage now, or my Cone of Cold chilling enemies for 5 more seconds now.

 

I'd love to see several aspects to spells. i.e. "Impact force, radius of effect, duration, intensity, range." And I'd like to be able to choose exactly what will increase. Maybe at a certain point, the improvement is that the spell gains a new aspect (such as "projectile quantity"). At the very least, even if we don't get to choose exactly how the spells improve, I'd much rather see them improve across several aspects like that instead of JUST damage and/or cast time and/or range.

 

I've always thought of spells as kind of the Wizard/Mage's weapon, in a way, and it seems kind of unfair that they hardly ever change how they behave at all, whereas a Rogue or a Warrior gets to do all kinds of new, awesome, improved things with the same dagger/axe/swords/mace. "Fireball" and "Lightning bolt" are sort of like an axe and a spear. Either that or there should be 17 different lightning spells and 17 different fire spells that would accomplish the same amount of variety. Otherwise, you end up with some slightly bland "weapons".

[TRX850]

Also, on the note of those little ground-hugging AOE markers, I sincerely hope they don't make them targeted directly to the cursor, with the cursor defaulting to foreground objects/surfaces, and call it a day. How annoying is it when you want to target that group of enemies near the wall, and you move one pixel over, and the entire 15-foot AOE circle leaps up to the next floor. It should stay on the same floorspace until you've made it clear you want it to hug a different plane. More of a minor complaint, really...

 

Maybe if there was a function to shift-mousecursor (or ctrl-mousecursor) so that it targeted smoothly and didn't "snap" to each object? You could still TAB to the next nearest enemy for an exact target.

 

Also, I'd like some indication that where I'm about to cast is currently out of spell range, implying my character has to move closer to the enemy before casting. Maybe the AoE marker could change colour or blink, or something to inform me that my strategically placed party members may want to reconsider tactics in case my mage has to break rank and stand in harms way to cast that fireball.

[Lephys]

Also, on the note of those little ground-hugging AOE markers, I sincerely hope they don't make them targeted directly to the cursor, with the cursor defaulting to foreground objects/surfaces, and call it a day. How annoying is it when you want to target that group of enemies near the wall, and you move one pixel over, and the entire 15-foot AOE circle leaps up to the next floor. It should stay on the same floorspace until you've made it clear you want it to hug a different plane. More of a minor complaint, really...

 

Maybe if there was a function to shift-mousecursor (or ctrl-mousecursor) so that it targeted smoothly and didn't "snap" to each object? You could still TAB to the next nearest enemy for an exact target.

 

Also, I'd like some indication that where I'm about to cast is currently out of spell range, implying my character has to move closer to the enemy before casting. Maybe the AoE marker could change colour or blink, or something to inform me that my strategically placed party members may want to reconsider tactics in case my mage has to break rank and stand in harms way to cast that fireball.

 

Yesssss! For the range indicator, you could just have the thin, high-contrast circle around your character, the radius of which would be your cast range. I think some indication from the marker itself would be a good idea, in the event that the circle indicator is in a bad spot or you just happen to miss it. The circle would show you how far not to go when the targeting cursor is already within it, and the marker itself would immediately tell you that you need to find the circle indicator in order to see how far outside of range you already are.

[TRX850]

Yesssss! For the range indicator, you could just have the thin, high-contrast circle around your character, the radius of which would be your cast range.

 

Actually, that would be better, and would solve the problem outright. Wizards in particular are known as the "Controller" type, as in battlefield/multiple-enemies/AoE control. So it would only be right if they understood the actual AoE range of their abilities.

 

I like it.

Edited January 13, 2013 by TRX850

[Hormalakh]

I would like spells to have some sort of to-hit. And then if they miss, for the spell to still be cast and to-hit something/one else. For example, a fireball spell with AoE might be cast, but if you "miss" the fireball still lands, except not exactly where you expect.

 

Of course, I don't think Sawyer would implement this because too many players would just reload on a "missed fireball."

[TRX850]

I would like spells to have some sort of to-hit. And then if they miss, for the spell to still be cast and to-hit something/one else. For example, a fireball spell with AoE might be cast, but if you "miss" the fireball still lands, except not exactly where you expect.

 

Of course, I don't think Sawyer would implement this because too many players would just reload on a "missed fireball."

 

It's an interesting point though. We'd be getting into the whole glancing fireball and critical hit fireball territory, which I'm sure would make for an entertaining discussion thread, if nothing else.

 

Actually, why *wouldn't* it be possible to get a critical fireball, if the saving throw was missed by more than 50% etc etc. ?? My brain has just exploded.

[Malevolent]

A spell-writing mechanic for high level wizards could be fun. Obviously to limit the hassle of implementing something like this, you could limit the levels of the design and be given a certain number of "points" assigned to various sections of the spell. You could have break it up where they would design whether or not the spell was a passive spell like a buff, a defensive spell, or an attack spell. From there you could decide its various effects an invest your "points" into either the power of the spell and its damage, or how many turns the buff/defensive ability lasts. You could also determine range for the spell whether or not you want it to be limited to yourself or a party buff, or be an AoE type attack. You could choose from basic spell types already in your book and mix/match. Like a paralyzing poison spell, etc. Duration, Damage/Power and Range would all subtract from the allotted point system.

 

If... that makes sense. I think if executed properly it would limit players so their spells weren't overpowered and would be more like combining or altering existing spells rather than creating entirely new effects, meaning that it wouldn't be TOO much of a pain for devs.

[Somna]

A spell-writing mechanic for high level wizards could be fun. Obviously to limit the hassle of implementing something like this, you could limit the levels of the design and be given a certain number of "points" assigned to various sections of the spell. You could have break it up where they would design whether or not the spell was a passive spell like a buff, a defensive spell, or an attack spell. From there you could decide its various effects an invest your "points" into either the power of the spell and its damage, or how many turns the buff/defensive ability lasts. You could also determine range for the spell whether or not you want it to be limited to yourself or a party buff, or be an AoE type attack. You could choose from basic spell types already in your book and mix/match. Like a paralyzing poison spell, etc. Duration, Damage/Power and Range would all subtract from the allotted point system.

 

If... that makes sense. I think if executed properly it would limit players so their spells weren't overpowered and would be more like combining or altering existing spells rather than creating entirely new effects, meaning that it wouldn't be TOO much of a pain for devs.

 

I know I'd love to be able to do "assemble your own spell" kind of magic, but a lot of games seem to shy away from them.

 

The only ones I can think of that are close to this are the Words of Power variant spellcasting for Pathfinder and an old Playstation game called Kartia, The Word of Fate, which basically took it to 11 and made it so that spells, items and a lot of your army was created by the runic (i.e. Kanji, given the game origin) magic system.

[TRX850]

A spell-writing mechanic for high level wizards could be fun. Obviously to limit the hassle of implementing something like this, you could limit the levels of the design and be given a certain number of "points" assigned to various sections of the spell. You could have break it up where they would design whether or not the spell was a passive spell like a buff, a defensive spell, or an attack spell. From there you could decide its various effects an invest your "points" into either the power of the spell and its damage, or how many turns the buff/defensive ability lasts. You could also determine range for the spell whether or not you want it to be limited to yourself or a party buff, or be an AoE type attack. You could choose from basic spell types already in your book and mix/match. Like a paralyzing poison spell, etc. Duration, Damage/Power and Range would all subtract from the allotted point system.

 

If... that makes sense. I think if executed properly it would limit players so their spells weren't overpowered and would be more like combining or altering existing spells rather than creating entirely new effects, meaning that it wouldn't be TOO much of a pain for devs.

 

I've thought about this too. You could design an AoE spell like fireball, but it could be half fire, half acid, for example. Or 1/4 each of fire/acid/cold/electricity and so on.

 

A poison bomb? Or a disease bomb? Or a combination.

 

It's conceptually an excellent idea, and now that we have computing power to handle all the "numbers" involved that PnP would find a hassle, it'd only be down to funding and time constraints to implement it. If not, might be something the modding community could look into. But I'd like to eventually have a go at spell combining. It's a great idea.

 

Edit:

 

Of if you're engaged in a Frost Salamander quest, you could design a spell that cast Protection from Cold on yourself while instantaneously dropping Firestorm on the enemy. The targeting variables would need to know that Stage 1 is on the caster and Stage 2 is user-selected. Could be hilarious if those were mixed up.

Edited January 13, 2013 by TRX850

[rjshae]

They could possibly implement a spell-writing mechanic for a sequel. I'm not sure it's needed for this release.

[Somna]

They could possibly implement a spell-writing mechanic for a sequel. I'm not sure it's needed for this release.

 

Considering it before the first game is finished makes it easier to mesh if they think it's a good idea though.

 

It would be an excellent casting style for the Cipher, for example.

[TRX850]

What if you could pre-cast certain spells on ammunition so that the effect was delivered via your ranged weapon?

 

You could bless crossbow bolts in NWN to insta-kill Rakshasas, but I would suggest there should be some limit to the number of arrows/bolts/stones affected to keep it balanced.

 

So, obvious contenders for this would be spells like fireball, dispel magic, slow, silence etc. The question is, how high a level should be allowed? Things could very quickly become unbalanced if you could imbue a quiver of arrows with Wail of the Banshee or Horrid Wilting. Then again, if the game were to go into epic levels, it's something to consider.

 

What sort of spells would you like to attach to your ranged weapon ammunition?

[Lephys]

Regarding the spell-writing thing, I think a more streamlined solution would be to have spells be very basically predefined, and modified from there, instead of having just a completely blank slate to make up all your spells. Kind of like Mr. PotatoHead. He's already a potatohead (you can't just literally make him anything in the universe), but you get to decide if he gets one eye, or two, and there that eye goes, and what kind of eye it is. In other words, you get sufficient variety and customization, but you get the benefit of not 7-million-options for you to have to pick from just to create a spell.

 

You could even kind of combine the 2. Instead of earning Firebolt at level 2, then customizing it as you leveled up to become Acidboltic Missile or something, you could be presented with a new spell at level 2, and go into the spell-weaving interface, and choose "Bolt spell." Then, pick a minimal few features for it (like fire, and maybe one of three bonuses to speed, range, critical chance perhaps, or effect? [blind, burn, knockdown, etc.]). Then, as you level up, you'd unlock more spell improvement points. You could either distribute them throughout all your spells (you'd always earn new spells at certain levels, complete with enough points to spend on just that one new spell to give it form and effect), or you could just boost the crap out of certain ones as you went.

 

You could also have the typical, predetermined spell system that most RPGs use, simply with the above system of spell improvement/customization. Maybe you could throw in some create-a-spells at higher levels. It really just depends on what you're going for.

 

As you can see from this thread, creative minds run rampant when presented with too many options at once (I don't propose keeping them to a minimum, but simply under a maximum. That's the only reason I'd say go with the tree-type system (with a good variety of spell types as the core branches). Well, and to streamline out the non-viable options. I mean, you'd have to balance that somehow, or everyone'd have Magic Missile explode in an acid-fireball upon impact (of each missile) that then created chain lightning made out of holy bolts that then summoned an ethereal wolf for every enemy they struck.

[Somna]

What if you could pre-cast certain spells on ammunition so that the effect was delivered via your ranged weapon?

 

You could bless crossbow bolts in NWN to insta-kill Rakshasas, but I would suggest there should be some limit to the number of arrows/bolts/stones affected to keep it balanced.

 

So, obvious contenders for this would be spells like fireball, dispel magic, slow, silence etc. The question is, how high a level should be allowed? Things could very quickly become unbalanced if you could imbue a quiver of arrows with Wail of the Banshee or Horrid Wilting. Then again, if the game were to go into epic levels, it's something to consider.

 

What sort of spells would you like to attach to your ranged weapon ammunition?

 

See Pathfinder's take on Arcane Archer. Especially the Imbue Arrow option. It's really not that huge of a deal imbuing ammunition the way it does it.

[TRX850]

See Pathfinder's take on Arcane Archer. Especially the Imbue Arrow option. It's really not that huge of a deal imbuing ammunition the way it does it.

 

Ah yes, I remember the Arcane Archer prestige class from the NWN1&2 series and have tested it before. What I meant was for spellcasters like wizards, sorcerers, clerics etc to be able to cast a spell on one or more units of ammunition that would "persist" until fired from a ranged weapon. So it's like Imbue Arrow, but you don't have to use it right away. I can see why they limited the Arcane Archer to using it immediately to prevent exploiting the ability, so my suggestion does come with some concerns.

 

Maybe there could even be rare-ish arrows and bolts that come as "empty vessels" for storing spells at specified levels? So maybe during a difficult quest you find a handful of "magic arrows level 3" that can each store a 3rd level spell on them. "Magic arrows level 5" store 5th level spells and so on. It might balance things out more. Of course, you could always have an Arcane Archer in your party as well.

Edited January 14, 2013 by TRX850

[Lephys]

Party combo tactics FTW!!!

[TRX850]

What about NWN2-Warlock-inspired "Elemental Blast Shapes" for Wizards?

Starting with a touch attack at level one, then adding a blast shape every two levels thereafter for all Fire / Cold / Acid / Lightning spells.

Wiz
Lvl     Range/Shape
  1 -    Touch
  3 -    Spear/Lance
  5 -    Ball
  7 -    Cone
  9 -    Chain
11 -    Storm
13 -    Delayed or Self-Target (Ball blast shape only)

It would normalize elemental spell attacks and damage, which were previously non-uniform in A/D&D rules.

So instead of preparing the equivalent of Burning Hands, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Fire Storm, and other groups of elemental-damage spells, you have ONE spell icon/button for each of the four element types when you cast, but you click-and-hold and select from a Flyout (or Fly-up) menu and choose the shape you want.

And for that last option, a secondary flyout menu for conditional targeting and triggering rules. (Think Sunfire and Delayed Blast Fireball etc). I'm tempted to move the Self-Target option back to 9 or 11 though. And obviously the caster would be immune to their own spell.

 

????
 

[AGX-17]

Spell Mastery - many of the basic spells come with built-in limitations, but the game allow the character to find rare tomes that teach better methods of casting the spell. This is an accomplishment that allows the higher level wizard to cast an improved version of low level spells.

They've already stated that they intend low level spells to stay useful and relevant as the game progresses.

[TRX850]

Variable AoE for Fireball and other area spells.
- Expand up to ONE area size larger [-25% damage], or...

- Re-focus up to TWO area sizes smaller [+10% and +20% damage respectively]

Maybe as you position the spell, it shows the AoE ground radius, and you can mousewheel up or down to expand or contract it.

Use this AoE table as a guide.
 

[Lephys]

^ That's the kind of spellcasting control I long for in an RPG. This whole "I can make it rain lightning bolts in a 20-foot area, and I can make ONE lightning bolt in a single spot, but I can't make it rain lightning bolts in a single spot, and I can't make lightning strike once in a 20-foot area" thing kind of makes it feel like your spells are just James Bond gadgets. "Oh, I can magically create this grenade, but it always has the same properties. The only difference, really, is that I don't have to buy it or carry it around. 8P"

 

. I want magic to feel like my Wizard is actually intentionally weaving things just so to make stuff happen. Granted, it would take a stupid amount of resources not to abstract that a bit, but a decent variety of variance options to spells (along the lines of shrinking an AOE for more damage, or expanding it for less damage, as per your example) would work wonders.

 

Maybe there are a lot of enemies in a decently large area, and some extra-flammable stuff you've laid down? Maybe you're more situationally concerned with combusting the maximum number of enemies, and you're less concerned about the damage and/or knockback (or any other qualities) of the fireball or fire spell.

 

I want to be able to tweak the cast of a spell similarly to how a Warrior tweaks the swing of his weapon. Maybe he slashes, maybe he pommel strikes, maybe he thrusts, maybe he throws it, and maybe it's an axe and he hooks the top of a shield with the blade, etc. The axe can be used in different ways. A fireball (in most games) can only be aimed at different things, but it always does the same thing (at a given level).

[IndiraLightfoot]

Great ideas, TRX850 and Lephys! 

 

Being an avid D&D fan back in the days, I remember thinking warlocks was a weird and strange novelty at first in NWN2. It took me many playthrus till I rolled one up, and it was quite different, intuitive and fun! Your basically advocating for flexible spells that can be adjusted in combat situations and also, by the earlier discussion, can be made into useful combinations depending on the encounter and the environment (woods, a cave or a city street are all quite different arenas to do spell casting in). I recall seing the game Legends of Dawn having a spell system where you easily can mix the spells and speel effects you want. I'm gonna add this to the "Great Ideas not to be Forgotten"-thread.