Power of classes (Realism vs. Filling unlimited power)

[Ulquiorra]

Actually, a normal person could kill a dragon.

But he has to be both lucky, smart and skilled.

 

 

Go to SAS or other elite forces and try to kill simple lion or rhino (not mentioning elephant) with simple sword and you can start saying that bull**** ...

 

 

All it takes is a good hit in a vital spot (heart, brain, eyes). How you realise that hit is another matter. Sneak in while the dragon is sleeping? Ambush? distraction? Drop a giant boulder on it's head?

 

Try to hit wolf in fight in eye, brain or heart and you will se it's allmost imposible ... (he is not standing and waiting to be killed).

 

Ambush ? Mayby but even so you got 4/10 chances to ambush a animal ... lisen to any hunter .. even master hunters have 6 to 10 .. and even so you can't kill such big animal with 1 swing of sword ... somethimes even 10 bullets is not enought to kill such a big creature ... not metioning that if you atack him in close distance he will kill you i 2 mayby 3 blows ...(somethimes even 1) ...

 

distraction? you can distract your dog with ham or susage ... but a lion or bear wiil go for you becouse thay are WILD animals ...

 

Drop a giant boulder on it's head? first you must be overpower to move this bouled secondy how many bulders place exacly in right place you what in PE ?

 

Secondly all if they are gonna add dragons in PE they propably gona be inteligent .. so tey also can do the same trics as you and don't go for such childish tactic ....

 

 

And

 

btw.

 

Lord of the ring characters was not overpowerd ?

 

Legolas multikilling everywon withous simgle scar ..

 

Gandalf multikilling and resurecting ...

 

16 t armies agins 50 t armies winning ...

 

Even Aragorn was overpowerd, yes he has not superpower abilitis but still he multikills orcs, urk-hai's, he can summon an ARMY of undead (onec but allways) he is hair of the trone, he knows elvish language, he is super-lucky, almost everybody likes him, great leader, good stategist etc....

 

Find 1 single normal character from history that has at least 1/2 as this NORMAL character ...

Edited February 9, 2013 by Ulquiorra

[JFSOCC]

I think trashman meant to say it's hypothetically possible. Not that it is practical or likely.

Unless I'm mistaken...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

A normal person could not kill a dragon, unless the dragon was a komodo dragon. For one, they DON'T EXIST, and even if they did their physiology make them virtually invincible to medieval weaponry, even if they are struck in the eyes.

 

To get back on topic:

 

I want a power level/progression to have characters be superhuman(closer to Spider-Man than Superman though), but what is more important to me is that it is explained. I want there to be some in-game, lore supported reason why a fighter is able to withstand fireballs or other powerful spell. Thankfully, PE's souls can be used to explain that so I don't have much to worry about.

[TrashMan]

A normal person could not kill a dragon, unless the dragon was a komodo dragon. For one, they DON'T EXIST, and even if they did their physiology make them virtually invincible to medieval weaponry, even if they are struck in the eyes.

 

 

A dragons physiology is fictional, so the idea that they are invulnerable to medieval weaponry is bogus.

 

If weapons can pierce high quality steel, you really think dragon hide is out of the question?

[TrashMan]

* long, winded post that misses the point*

 

 

1. Irrelevant. A REAL person can't kill a dragon because it doesn't exist. A normal person mgiht be abel to kill a dragon..depending on what kind of dragon it is.  There are degrees of believabiltiy and realism ya know.

 

2. How does having soul power help a warrior kill a flying dragon? Unless you can fire energy bolt from your sword?

 

3. Arrows bounce off the scales? Sez who? Dragons have no fixed size or power level. I can make **** up too - what if soul powers bounced off their scales?

 

4. People can sneak around with swords ya know. Besides, if you plan to sneak you prepare for it beforehand and equip accordingly.

 

5. "He WILL hear you" is not a given. For one, you have no idea how good a dragons hearing is or how deep he is sleeping. Dragons may as well be deaf for all you know.

 

6. What if dragons are small and weak? What is a sword is made from dragonkillium? What if I made pointless what if's whose only purpose is to concoct scenarios in which you are wrong?

Your "what if's" are pointless, since they don't prove a damn thing.

 

 

 

 

@ Ulquiorra

 

 

Rhino? Wouldn't want to try, but it is possible. Especially with the right weaponry. Evade attack (sidestep/jump to the side), target feet.

Lion? If in full plate - come at me bro! A dagger to his throat/heart while it tries to chew trough steel.

 

 

LOTR?

Gandalg is an angel.

I already said I hated Legolases shenanigans, so why do you bring it up again?

Aragorn is OK. He kills a lot of orcs - so what? Survival and comptence aren't superpowers.

 

Also learn a difference between a normal human (in abiltiy and potential) and normal human (averga couch potato Joe).

[AGX-17]

 

 

* long, winded post that misses the point*

 

 

1. Irrelevant. A REAL person can't kill a dragon because it doesn't exist. A normal person mgiht be abel to kill a dragon..depending on what kind of dragon it is.  There are degrees of believabiltiy and realism ya know.

 

2. How does having soul power help a warrior kill a flying dragon? Unless you can fire energy bolt from your sword?

 

3. Arrows bounce off the scales? Sez who? Dragons have no fixed size or power level. I can make **** up too - what if soul powers bounced off their scales?

 

4. People can sneak around with swords ya know. Besides, if you plan to sneak you prepare for it beforehand and equip accordingly.

 

5. "He WILL hear you" is not a given. For one, you have no idea how good a dragons hearing is or how deep he is sleeping. Dragons may as well be deaf for all you know.

 

6. What if dragons are small and weak? What is a sword is made from dragonkillium? What if I made pointless what if's whose only purpose is to concoct scenarios in which you are wrong?

Your "what if's" are pointless, since they don't prove a damn thing.

 

 

My post was a concise, two short paragraphs. Nice ad hominem. As expected from the Trashman.

 

All you're doing is positing that the characters should be realistically limited to real human capabilities, then adding exceptions to give them unrealistic chances to attain unrealistic goals in a setting you've been arguing should be realistic.

 

The entire focus of the game has been established as focused on Souls with various abilities associated with them. I said that is unrealistic, another aspect of the game that runs contrary to your desire for simulation-realistic characters. Thank you for making another strawman argument to make yourself look foolish.

 

If a dragon could be killed with a couple of regular, realistic arrows, what threat would they pose? Why do you need to sneak into the dragon's lair and specifically target their eyes or brain?

 

Besides that, you're seriously saying a guy in steel plate armor can sneak? You really wrote that. Let it be known that TrashMan believes it is realistic that a man in full steel plate armor can sneak stealthily, like Garrett from Thief.

 

Hell, why would you need to sneak if you're making dragons deaf, now? You're the one who said the party needs to sneak up and drop a conveniently placed boulder on its head as one of the only viable means of cartoonishly killing it for our realistic party of adventurers.

 

And if you posit that dragons are small and weak, why do you need to sneak up and drop a boulder on its head or stab it in the eye or brain in the first place?

 

Your words, your strategy, you implied that those were the only ways for the game's necessarily realistic human party to kill a dragon. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing, except I never did it in the first place.

Edited February 11, 2013 by AGX-17

[Ulquiorra]

Rhino? Wouldn't want to try, but it is possible. Especially with the right weaponry. Evade attack (sidestep/jump to the side), target feet.

Lion? If in full plate - come at me bro! A dagger to his throat/heart while it tries to chew trough steel.

 

1. Rhino also has weapon and belive me he will not wait for you to kill him.

 

2. Even peaople in special forces can't fully control a fight (no activ pause and time to save or think it over) with HUMAN. And you want to control a fight with animal and say that "NORMAL" ?

 

3. A Lion with a full plate mayby, but if you nedd full plate for lion (considering that every human needs full plate for lion) what about Elephant ? If he stomp you even a car coud not work. And most of all, Did you se T-Rex in documentary movies or Jurassic Park ? He is most simmilar to the Dragon. So do you think that full plate and even two-danded axe will do him more then single scratch ? Belive me that you coud not even reach his vital organs like brain, eye etc.

 

And before you say "I can use bow". Do you realy think that to best system for RPG game is to make everybody fullplate archer ? Not everybody ude bows or magic so simple warrior must be overpowerd becouse humans are week.

 

4. All your argumentation goes for "It's possible so it's not overpowerd" , but even IF some fights apply for "Possible" then how do you think. If you fight 100 enemys and you have possibilyty to kill them 1/2 for each. You fight first and 1/2 to die, you fight second and you have 1/4 to survive third only 1/8 to survive. I think you fallow me, your fighting with one at a time. If you win the game and you will sirvive 1200 fights some more 3/4 but some only 1/10 or even 1/20 posibility of win. Do you not think so that "bottomless reserve of luck" is not some kind of superpower or overpowerd.

 

 

 

LOTR?

Gandalg is an angel.

I already said I hated Legolases shenanigans, so why do you bring it up again?

Aragorn is OK. He kills a lot of orcs - so what? Survival and comptence aren't superpowers.

 

Also learn a difference between a normal human (in abiltiy and potential) and normal human (averga couch potato Joe).

 

And you think that potentian, competence and skills or other "Normal" resorces are gona grand you "bottomless reserve of luck". life is a lottery. even if you the best boxer you still can lose, if you best swimmer you still can lose ...

 

I want to PE become more tactical game then single lottery. If i wanna play monk or other class, i don't want to die becouse i don't use some kind of stange luck. I understand that somethimes it's good to be at right place and time .. but seriously ? Do you really wanna play game that you always at winning start position ?

 

And what if you NOT ? You must Die ? For example if you don't have fullplate lion must kill you ... if you don't have tank dragon will kill you.

 

Sometimes it's good to be on Winning starting position expecionaly if you have low lvl. In realyty Rhino will smash even fullplate ..even if you sneak to him, it will take more than 1 critical hit to kill him.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

A dragons physiology is fictional, so the idea that they are invulnerable to medieval weaponry is bogus.

 

If weapons can pierce high quality steel, you really think dragon hide is out of the question?

 

 

 

Yes. Just because a weapon can break through a well crafted suit of armor doesn't mean it will harm a Large magical flying lizard who can incinerate creatures by breathing, has great magical power, is highly intelligent and physically powerful.

 

Of course you could pull justifications on how a normal person could defeat a dragon out your ass until PE is released, but that doesn't change the fact that the PE setting is not realistic. Unless being able to tap into the power of your soul to break the laws of physics is realistic.

Edited February 11, 2013 by KaineParker

[Iucounu]

@Trashman

I wonder if you actually enjoyed the IE-Games, given your preferences on power-levels. What you're proposing sounds almost like some Half Life game, where you only gain strength by collecting new gadgets.. sounds boring to me, especially in a fantasy game.  

In any case, PE is supposed to be a game that resembles the IE games, so I'm afraid you have to look for another game that better fits your expectations on that matter. 

 

 

For me a very important thing would be to have really powerful magic in the game. I just loved the crazy powerful mages and spells in BG (especially that it was not that obvious for beginners), and missed them in most other games I played. 

I'd say if you can't find a convincing concept that gives other classes the means to compete, than to hell with the balance of power. Just build in awesome mages, and every fantasy game needs a unsupernatural John Average figher for flavor anyway, right?

[jamoecw]

personally i'd like magic to be balanced with non magical means.  say a mage could chuck a fireball and wipe 10 or so goblins, but due to the dedication to such arts he can't even fight off 1 goblin without his magic.  now if the mage has limited spells at his command for a period of time, for what ever reason, and the goblins are spread thin so that a fireball can't kill all 10, then the mage will be overcome.  a fighter doesn't have access to spells, so he can't kill 10 goblins with a fireball, so if they are clumped up they can overwhelm him, but spread out he can take them on one at a time and win where a mage could not.

 

as for killing a dragon, a dragon is an epic creature, killing it should be difficult, but as a mage is concentrated firepower they would be the class to kill it.  however if you are ambushed by archers a mage would be pretty useless, as they would be wasting what little fire power they have.  preist/clerics should have protective magic, which would help keep the mage alive while the warriors deal with the archers.

 

the thief/rogue i think should have high utility out of combat, and in combat be more of a support class, sort of like the ninja's black egg used to blind opponents, or bolas to trip opponents and such.

 

if everyone used spells, magic would be sort of common and end up losing something.  magic should be a force in your party, but not the only thing to distinguish you from non adventurers.

[TrashMan]

My post was a concise, two short paragraphs. Nice ad hominem. As expected from the Trashman.

 

All you're doing is positing that the characters should be realistically limited to real human capabilities, then adding exceptions to give them unrealistic chances to attain unrealistic goals in a setting you've been arguing should be realistic.

 

"How dare you do Ad Hominems!" - follows by Ad Hominem. Hypocrisy much?

 

 

No mac, that's not what I'm doing. And I couldn't care less what your dellusions are. I'm nto adding exceptions nor giving anyone "unrealistic chances" (unless you could the power of save/load, which royally fubars any such statistics)

 

 

 

The entire focus of the game has been established as focused on Souls with various abilities associated with them. I said that is unrealistic, another aspect of the game that runs contrary to your desire for simulation-realistic characters. Thank you for making another strawman

argument to make yourself look foolish.

 

What strawman?

At this poitn I?m not even sure you know what teh word means.

 

Yeah, I'm not keen on the idea of soul powers. So sue me. I fail to see how that makes me foolish.

 

 

 

If a dragon could be killed with a couple of regular, realistic arrows, what threat would they pose? Why do you need to sneak into the dragon's lair and specifically target their eyes or brain?

 

There you go, nitpicking again.

Have I ever said "a couple of arrows"? Well, have I?

No, I haven't.

 

A dragon - as large or as small as it might be - is still very much mortal. You don't have to sever someones head to kill him. Ever heard of death of a thousand cuts?

 

 

 

Besides that, you're seriously saying a guy in steel plate armor can sneak? You really wrote that. Let it be known that TrashMan believes it is realistic that a man in full steel plate armor can sneak stealthily, like Garrett from Thief.

 

More strawmen.

 

First, show me where I said that. PLEASE. I dare you. Show me that exact line. Not what you think I might have said.

 

Second, depending on the enviroment and the hearing of the opponent, you can somewhat sneak in plate - it's definately not reccomended tough.

 

 

 

Hell, why would you need to sneak if you're making dragons deaf, now?

You're the one who said the party needs to sneak up and drop a conveniently placed boulder on its head as one of the only viable means of cartoonishly killing it for our realistic party of adventurers.

 

And if you posit that dragons are small and weak, why do you need to sneak up and drop a boulder on its head or stab it in the eye or brain in the first place?

 

Your words, your strategy, you implied that those were the only ways for the game's necessarily realistic human party to kill a dragon. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing,

except I never did it in the first place.

 

 

1. Since we are talkign hypotheticals - something YOU brought up first - then a dragon being deaf is just as likely as a dragon being immortal.

 

2. Stealth imples more than sound. Even if a dragon is deaf it may have good vision. Or sense of smell.

 

3. I posit that a dragon COULD be small or the COULD be the size of a continent. My whole point - which you constantly keep missing - is that dragons don't have a fixed size/power, and thus broad statements like "no human can kill it" are pointless.

 

4. I never implied that those were the only ways. You again lie and put words in my mouth in a pathetic attempt at a debate. Either start taking this discussion seriously or don't bother replying to my posts at all.

[TrashMan]

 

Rhino? Wouldn't want to try, but it is possible. Especially with the right weaponry. Evade attack (sidestep/jump to the side), target feet.

Lion? If in full plate - come at me bro! A dagger to his throat/heart while it tries to chew trough steel.

 

1. Rhino also has weapon and belive me he will not wait for you to kill him.

 

2. Even peaople in special forces can't fully control a fight (no activ pause and time to save or think it over) with HUMAN. And you want to control a fight with animal and say that "NORMAL" ?

 

3. A Lion with a full plate mayby, but if you nedd full plate for lion (considering that every human needs full plate for lion) what about Elephant ? If he stomp you even a car coud not work. And most of all, Did you se T-Rex in documentary movies or Jurassic Park ? He is most simmilar to the Dragon. So do you think that full plate and even two-danded axe will do him more then single scratch ? Belive me that you coud not even reach his vital organs like brain, eye etc.

 

And before you say "I can use bow". Do you realy think that to best system for RPG game is to make everybody fullplate archer ? Not everybody ude bows or magic so simple warrior must be overpowerd becouse humans are week.

 

4. All your argumentation goes for "It's possible so it's not overpowerd" , but even IF some fights apply for "Possible" then how do you think. If you fight 100 enemys and you have possibilyty to kill them 1/2 for each. You fight first and 1/2 to die, you fight second and you have 1/4 to survive third only 1/8 to survive. I think you fallow me, your fighting with one at a time. If you win the game and you will sirvive 1200 fights some more 3/4 but some only 1/10 or even 1/20 posibility of win. Do you not think so that "bottomless reserve of luck" is not some kind of superpower or overpowerd.

 

1. That goes for every fight. I fail to see your point.

 

2. I never said that complete control of a fight is always possible. Again, I fail to see your point.

 

3. Don't get stomped. Dodge/evade exists for a reason. Different opponents require different tactics and/or specialized weaponry.

A T-Rex? Well, bigger animals are more sluggish and if he wants to chomp you, he will have to bring his teeths (and head) in range. That said - there are always ways. For example - poisons. Or opening an artery and runing away. Wounding/tireing should always work - you hit the creatrue at it's weakest and most vulnerable. In fact that is the only smart way to fight powerful creatures. On your terms.

 

4. Luck is always a factor in battles. Some people have more luck than others. There are stories of real people who have come out of several wars alive...with tons of medals for suicidal and brave things. Yet they survived.

Statisticly speaking, any one individual doesn't have good chances to survive if exposed to prolonged combat. But the save/load mechanic makes all the statistics and luck pointless - and save/load exists outside of the game world.

That said.... TRIAL OF IRON mode.

 

 

 

I want to PE become more tactical game then single lottery. If i wanna play monk or other class, i don't want to die becouse i don't use some kind of stange luck. I understand that somethimes it's good to be at right place and time .. but seriously ? Do you really wanna play game that you always at winning start position ?

 

 

What?

You lost me here.

Waht does a monk have to do with luck?

 

 

 

And what if you NOT ? You must Die ? For example if you don't have fullplate lion must kill you ...

 

Eh? MUST die? Who said you must die? You can kill a lion without plate ya know.

Actually, now that I think about it, a spear and shield would probably by the best option.

Lions jump at the neck of the prey. In doing so, they expose their underbelly and you have reach with a spear - so you could pierce it's hart mid-jump.

 

 

 

Sometimes it's good to be on Winning starting position expecionaly if you have low lvl. In realyty Rhino will smash even fullplate ..even if you sneak to him, it will take more than 1 critical

hit to kill him.

 

It all depends.

If you smack it on the back of the neck with a greataxe, damaging the spinal cord?

[TrashMan]

 

A dragons physiology is fictional, so the idea that they are invulnerable to medieval weaponry is bogus.

 

If weapons can pierce high quality steel, you really think dragon hide is out of the question?

 

 

Yes. Just because a weapon can break through a well crafted suit of armor doesn't mean it will harm a Large magical flying lizard who can incinerate creatures by breathing, has great magical power, is highly intelligent and physically powerful.

 

Of course you could pull justifications on how a normal person could defeat a dragon out your ass until PE is released, but that doesn't change the fact that the PE setting is not realistic. Unless being able to tap into the power of your soul to break the laws of physics is realistic.

 

Am I talking to a wall here?

 

There is no factual yes/no answer. A dragon is fictional. His scales are only as hard as the writer decides. Period.

 

 

 

 

 

@Trashman

I wonder if you actually enjoyed the IE-Games, given your preferences on power-levels. What you're proposing sounds almost like some Half Life game, where you only gain strength by collecting new gadgets.. sounds boring to me, especially in a fantasy game.  

In any case, PE is supposed to be a game that resembles the IE games, so I'm afraid you have to look for another game that better fits your expectations on that matter.

 

I did. Especially BG1.

They did tend to become less interesting to me at higher levels

 

No, what I'm proposing isn't Half-Life, nor is it that much different for your average IE game. You might want to read again. Here, just for you I'll sumarize what I'd want in regards to leveling:

- no HP inflation (HP tied ONLY to con score - level and class have no impact)

- focus on skills and feats and not just pure stat inflation

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

1. That goes for every fight. I fail to see your point.

 

2. I never said that complete control of a fight is always possible. Again, I fail to see your point.

 

3. Don't get stomped. Dodge/evade exists for a reason. Different opponents require different tactics and/or specialized weaponry.

A T-Rex? Well, bigger animals are more sluggish and if he wants to chomp you, he will have to bring his teeths (and head) in range. That said - there are always ways. For example - poisons. Or opening an artery and runing away. Wounding/tireing should always work - you hit the creatrue at it's weakest and most vulnerable. In fact that is the only smart way to fight powerful creatures. On your terms.

 

4. Luck is always a factor in battles. Some people have more luck than others. There are stories of real people who have come out of several wars alive...with tons of medals for suicidal and brave things. Yet they survived.

Statisticly speaking, any one individual doesn't have good chances to survive if exposed to prolonged combat. But the save/load mechanic makes all the statistics and luck pointless - and save/load exists outside of the game world.

That said.... TRIAL OF IRON mode.

 

1. The piont is that rhino have more chances to kill you. And if you kill 15 rhinos it is almost impossible amount of luck. An amout that is not convincing.

 

2. The point is that in GAMES you have control in combat, even if your not have active pasue you can at least try to make some calculated strategy. In ralyti this don't goes that way. (mayby in battles as a general but for sure not for solider).

 

3. "Don't get stomped. Dodge/evade exists for a reason. Different opponents require different tactics and/or specialized weaponry." And you realy think that normal person (not avarge joe) is able to KILL Elephant with medieval equpent ? Yes making traps, and atacking 40 people on 1 elephan from "SAFE" distance. And you whant to apply this kind of mechanics in PE ?

 

"A T-Rex? Well, bigger animals are more sluggish and if he wants to chomp

you, he will have to bring his teeths (and head) in range. That said -

there are always ways."

 

And you think that you will always in 1/10000 chances to do so ? You think that they evolved for milions on years only to get kill by a single sword or arrow ? Sory but at least read about them before you say something. Belive me that T-Raxes have swollowed more hard and sharp thing that sinle human in fullplate and sword.  Even if T-Rex will sitt and woit for you to hit his eye with your sword your sword will never reach brain (1. becouse they have wary small brain 2. Hard skull.

 

 "example - poisons." Even most deadly posions need some time to work, AGAIN HE WILL NOT WAIT FOR YOU TO GENTLY KILL HIM !!!

 

 

4. "Luck is always a factor in battles. Some people have more luck than

others. There are stories of real people who have come out of several

wars alive...with tons of medals for suicidal and brave things. Yet they

survived."

 

I think that your naive. If a single soldier has 1/1000 Chance for surive all fights. And you have 10 000 000 solivers some of them MUST survive simple statistic.

 

But if you had only 500 soliders you have only 1/2 that someone will survive. And in you for 1 character you still have 1/1000 chance to survive. This is not STRATEGY game this is RPG.

What?

 

You lost me here.

Waht does a monk have to do with luck?

 

Mayby this that he is not useing full plate armor for lions ?

 

You are giving proves that if you "Have the right resorces" you will win even if your have normal human abilitys. But this also means that if you "Don have right resorces" you MUST die or at least lose a battle.

 

If you got a party that has mage, monk, warrior, paladin etc (so you have wery specific characters that are useing only defined "Resorces") With your logic every man in party must switch to havy armor befor fighing something that is not waiting to be killed, must be master of useing circumstances, useing endles amount of luck, have skills in everyting (alhemy, geography, strategy, medical knowlege to locate braing or heart) and still be called "Normal human" ?

 

Sorry but it is only possible in fantasy or novels ... not in REAL life.

 

Eh? MUST die? Who said you must die? You can kill a lion without plate ya know.

Actually, now that I think about it, a spear and shield would probably by the best option.

Lions jump at the neck of the prey. In doing so, they expose their underbelly and you have reach with a spear - so you could pierce it's hart mid-jump.

 

 

And what about Flying Dragon useing fire breath. You and your spear, shield and fullplate armor will melt or ger fried like a chicken in KFC. But again you say "Hay ok, but if he had nuclear-bomb he can kill a dragon" or "If i putt an arrow in his brain he CAN die"

 

But im still saying to you that you are expect impossible. Even if you can win a fight it's imposible for you to allways gain all

circumstances that will allow "Normal Human" to kill a big creature. And even so you still have 1/20 chance that he will kill you !

 

And what if you are fighing Goblins ? If they use traps, poisons, right circumstances thay coud kill you withoud you even knowing.

 

I sad it allready that YOU ARE NOT in the center of the galaxy ! They can use the same circumstances as you .. but they have bodies that evoluved for fights. HUMAN is not war machine. Even if you fell not right (on liver) you can die even if your not fighing anywon. Humans are delicate. Belive me that rhinos, lions and for sure T-Rexes where not.

 

And you still tink that fight 6 humans (that in realyty can be killed in 1 blow) can win a fight with magic useing, flying, inteligend reptile of the size of T-Rex (that somethimes will live even ef you hit him 100000 times)

.... Sory but stop Dreaming man.

 

 

If you smack it on the back of the neck with a greataxe, damaging the spinal cord?It all depends.

 

That sentence proves that you have no knowlage about animals and humans.

 

Rhino scull and neck are so hard they can withstand a waight of 1,5 ton becouse if not rhino that atack three whoud break his neck. His neck and scull withstand his own weight so baisacly you must use very strong RIFLE to penetrate if and still you are not sure if 1 bullet will do the work.

 

This one bullet has more strenght than 30 big man combained. Example try to take a stone and throw it in wall. What happends ? Is it three centimeters into the wall or simply bounce off ?

 

Rhinos have at least 2,3 centymeters thick scull (in most delicate region) and somethimes even 3,5 humans hor example have no more then 1 centymeeter. And still somethimes a "Normal" weapon lile sword can bounce off.

 

The force that you must use on small object to penetrace 3.5 scull is not possible withoud rifle.

 

And befor you say ( i can use a hammer) believ me that there are no people that can swing 1 ton hammers. there are not people that can swing even 500 kg hammer whout attention. Normal hammers useing to smash walls are 50kg. It will mayby confuse rhino and if rhino is infured or hitet in good spoot it can stund him for a moment.

 

Why do you think that Africans don't mess with wild animals (like lions, rhinos or elephants) ?

 

Of cource thay can kill that animal by setting trap but still this is 20 or 40 people agins 1-2 animals. And you will not Use armies in PE you will control 6 people

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Am I talking to a wall here?

No. A wall can't use a PC.

 

There is no factual yes/no answer. A dragon is fictional. His scales are only as hard as the writer decides. Period.

You have a problem with me assuming the power level of a dragon by referring to the common usage of dragons in fantasy? Fine.

 

Except you did the same thing.....

A dragon - as large or as small as it might be - is still very much mortal. You don't have to sever someones head to kill him. Ever heard of death of a thousand cuts?

You don't know if a fictional creature in this setting is mortal, yet here you are making your argument using an assumption, just like I did.

 

Again, you can go making justifications on how a normal group of people can accomplish amazing things forever, but it doesn't ****ing matter because PE will not be populated by "normal" people. It will be populated by people who can use magic, call upon the power of their souls to perform superhuman feats, and by non-humans who have special abilities. If you want a hyper-realism game, go play Age of Decadence or something, because PE will not be for you.

 

And just because I couldn't resist...

No, what I'm proposing isn't Half-Life, nor is it that much different for your average IE game. You might want to read again. Here, just for you I'll sumarize what I'd want in regards to leveling:

- no HP inflation (HP tied ONLY to con score - level and class have no impact)

- focus on skills and feats and not just pure stat inflation

In EVERY IE game HP was tied to level and class in addition to CON

 

In EVERY IE game there was a focus on stat inflation(attack, AC, HP, etc)

 

What you are proposing is different than what has been in ANY IE game

Edited February 12, 2013 by KaineParker

[TrashMan]

@Uluqarra -

 

You really bore me. you really do. You keep repeating the same old again and again.

 

Yes, it's a game. Yes, you survive incredible odds because of save/load.

Do you actually have a point or do you love stating the obvious?

 

You keep making some "arguments" that mean nothing.

 

 

 

You are giving proves that if you "Have the right resorces" you will win even if your have normal human abilitys. But this also means that if
you "Don have right resorces" you MUST die or at least lose a battle.

 

I told you before. Unless you are fighting god, there is no MUST. Your chances got worse but it still exists.

 

 

 

And what about Flying Dragon useing fire breath. You and your spear, shield and fullplate armor will melt or ger fried like a chicken in KFC.
But again you say "Hay ok, but if he had nuclear-bomb he can kill a dragon" or "If i putt an arrow in his brain he CAN die"

 

If you cannot reach a dragon and it can reach you with it's attacks, you're frakked.

It's no rocket science to fingt strong enemies on your terms, not theirs.

 

And enough with the silly "what if's". They are tailor made so there is only one answer....heck, most of them don't even warrant an answer.

Here - answer me this: What if you are compeltely wrong and I am right?

What the hell could you answer me other than "then you would be right". DOH! Brilliance.

 

 

I frankly have no idea what you are argoing for or what you think you are arguing for.

What the hell does all of your points have to do with anything?

 

 

 

Rhino scull and neck are so hard they can withstand a waight of 1,5 ton becouse if not rhino that atack three whoud break his neck. His neck and scull withstand his own weight so baisacly you must use very strong RIFLE to penetrate if and still you are not sure if 1 bullet will do the work.

 

Erm...no.

 

Learn basic biology and the way (and direction) forces are applied and the way stress works.

[TrashMan]

And just because I couldn't resist...

No, what I'm proposing isn't Half-Life, nor is it that much different for your average IE game. You might want to read again. Here, just for you I'll sumarize what I'd want in regards to leveling:

- no HP inflation (HP tied ONLY to con score - level and class have no impact)

- focus on skills and feats and not just pure stat inflation

In EVERY IE game HP was tied to level and class in addition to CON

 

In EVERY IE game there was a focus on stat inflation(attack, AC, HP, etc)

 

What you are proposing is different than what has been in ANY IE game

 

 

WELL NO S*** SHERLOCK!

How the hell did I miss that?

 

OMG; something that is different than the IE game!

The sacrillige!

The HORROR!

 

It is clear what I must do:

[Ulquiorra]

 TrashMan

 

You are simple troller in this case and i will not feed you anymore. I bore you becouse i repeat my self ? You repeat yourself from at leat 4 pages on this thred and you have NO argumentation.

 

In this case i won't go down becouse i see you must be very inmatrure persof if you think that a normal person "can kill a dragon". And you think that all humans can become Aragorns ...

 

And the worst thing that you are hipocrit. You say that lotr has "Normal characters" but then you say "Gandalf is an angel" So what Angels are something "Normal" as a example of being "Normal" ...

 

You don't have basics in baisic biology, mechanics a physics and still you argu on subjcet you don't know. If you think that 1,5 ton pushen i speed 25 km/h has less force then sword and still think that you have a right to judge me ... haha grow the hell up kiddo.

 

You have no arguments but still your worst nightmare is that most of people don't agree with you on this sobject. AND YOU MUST to convince us that you know everything ... sorry you don't know nothing and you are living in ilusion.

 

Ask one single cop, solider, or simle zoo ceeper about fights and animals ... you then realise that in most cases humans are atacking 40 on 1 animal and even then some of them may die (with latest technology) ....so what they don't know what they are talking about ?

 

You know more about fight then Special Force grups, and more about animals then biologists ... hahaha

 

Go but a lfullplate and atack a simple dog ... and then make asumptions about lions, rhinos or elefants or T-Rexes for **** sake ...

 

Stop living in wet dreem-world and watch one single documentery film ... mayby then you will learn something more then trolling.

[jamoecw]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want to PE become more tactical game then single lottery. If i wanna play monk or other class, i don't want to die becouse i don't use some kind of stange luck. I understand that somethimes it's good to be at right place and time .. but seriously ? Do you really wanna play game that you always at winning start position ?

 

 

What?

You lost me here.

Waht does a monk have to do with luck?

well the function of AC is a function of luck.  a monk is a fighter that relies on AC over HP, unlike the other fighter classes.  also equipment is a result of loot drops, which is based on luck in some games, which a monk does not rely on.  therefore if a party of monks meet a party of fighters, the winner is all based on compound luck.

 

at lvl 1 a monk's weapon is 1d6, at 100% gain rate (automatic)

a lvl 1 fighter's (150 gp avg starting gold) weapon is:

• 1d3 fist (automatic/backup), 100%
• 1d4 dagger (2/150 resources)
• 1d6 short spear (1/150 resources)
• 1d8 morning star (8/150 resources)
• 1d8 spear (2/150 resoures)
• 1d6 short sword (10/150 resources)
• 1d8 long sword (15/150 resources)
• 1d12 great ax (20/150 resources)
• 2d6 great sword (50/150 resources)

now if we take the resource ratio and operate as if you have found these items from random loot drops, then we can create odds of getting which item based on expected loot value:

• dagger -14.02%
• short spear - 14.15%
• morning star - 13.23%
• spear - 14.02%
• short sword - 12.96%
• long sword - 12.3%
• great ax - 11.64%
• great sword - 7.67%

thus we now know that there is a 14.02% chance of a monk having an edge in damage.  there is also a 27.12% chance of having the same damage, and a 58.86% chance of being out classed in damage.

 

at lvl 1 a monk's AC is 2 (18 dex + 18 wis)

lvl 1 fighter's AC is again determined by resources (150gp - base 6; 18 dex)

• -1 AC for padded (5gp)
• -2 AC for leather (10gp)
• -3 AC for studded leather (25gp)
• -4 AC for chain shirt (100gp)
• -3 AC for hide (15gp)
• -4 AC for scale mail (50gp)
• -5 AC for chainmail (150gp)

same process for loot drops:

• padded - 16.43%
• leather - 16.2%
• studded leather - 15.49%
• chain shirt - 11.97%
• hide - 15.96%
• scale mail - 14.32%
• chainmail - 9.62%

now this time the monk has a whopping 4 AC from his wisdom score, so 64.08% of drops would give the fighter a disadvantage against a monk in terms of AC.  26.29% of the time they will have the same AC, while only he chainmail yields better results at 9.62%.

 

now defense is only half AC, the other half is HP, in which the fighter has 14 (base 10 + con 18), while the monk has 12 (base 8 + con 18), or always 85.71% of the HP.  another constant is the attack bonus, fighter at +1, and the monk at -2/-2.  so the fighter's thaco is 5 (base of 1 + str 18), while the monk's is 2/2 (-2/-2 + str 18).  so the fighter with one attack has an easy to calculate 75% chance vs AC 10.  a monk has 36% of hitting with both attacks, and a 16% chance at missing both attacks, which means that he does an average of 1.2 attacks per round vs AC 10 (as opposed to .75 of the fighter).

 

now we have all the numbers needed to make a rough comparison at the monk's highest relative strength value vs a fighter throughout the levels (at least in a direct stand up fight).

fighter weighted AC - ~3.04 AC (base {10} - dex 18 {4} - weighted armor AC by loot drop % {~2.68})

monk AC - 2 AC (base {10} - dex 18 {4} - wis 18 {4})

 

fighter weighted dps - ~2.68 a round vs AC 2 (~7.67 weighted average of dps of weapons, weighted by loot drop chance)

monks weighted dps - ~1.76 a round vs AC ~3.04 AC (3.5 average dps)

 

fighter kills monk after ~4.47 rounds of combat, while the monk kills the fighter after ~7.94 rounds.

 

a monk's survivability stem's from AC, saving throws and spell resistance, all of which rely on dice rolls, with lower dps than a fighter he has to survive longer in a fight.  a fighter's survivability stems from loot drops.  a fighter can liquidate loot in order to curb randomness affecting his combat performance, while a monk has no such option.  the monk's saving grace is his ability to deal with spell casters, though since he lacks the burst damage of a rogue, or spell casters, his anti mage utility is less useful to the team's survivability.  in fact nearly all of the advantages of a monk over other classes yields poor results in helping the rest of the team.

 

i could go on about why monks aren't good party members based on their skills, though a group of evil monks would be a great antagonist in an rpg, as they would need a small elite group to oppose them, and if not dealt with could cause much havoc on a nation, wiping out villages and such.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

WELL NO S*** SHERLOCK!

How the hell did I miss that?

I don't know. Maybe you should pay a bit more attention to what you post. You did say what you proposed wasn't "that much different from your average IE game", then listed two things that were completely different than what was in the average IE game.

 

OMG; something that is different than the IE game!

The sacrillige!

The HORROR!

Strawman and fake outrage? You must be a conservative or libertarian.

[TrashMan]

 TrashMan

 

You are simple troller in this case and i will not feed you anymore. I bore you becouse i repeat my self ? You repeat yourself from at leat 4 pages on this thred and you have NO argumentation.

 

In this case i won't go down becouse i see you must be very inmatrure persof if you think that a normal person "can kill a dragon". And you think that all humans can become Aragorns ...

 

And you have arguments?

It basicly boils down to "this isnt' 100% real, so why even bother". You talk like there are no degrees.

Because something having 1:100, 1:10000 and 1:10000000 chances are all unlikely - but are totally different.

 

Furthermore, you insist on any system not to your liking being flawed because no person can have that much luck... which is silly considering that unless you are makign a rouge-like, save-load nad being the protagonist basicly amouts to ungodly amount of luck.

Sooner or later, no matter how hard you make a game someone will beat it.

 

And games are made to be beatable, so your argument that the protagonist is not normal (again, you get hanged up on the semantics here) is pointless.

Why don't you go and complain on every other game forum or to every move director that protagonists should die?

 

 

 

 

And the worst thing that you are hipocrit. You say that lotr has "Normal characters" but then you say "Gandalf is an angel" So what

Angels are something "Normal" as a example of being "Normal" ...

 

Exceptions prove the rule.

Hobbits and humans are "normal" inhabitants of the land.

Elves are another exception, but they are pretty normal themselves (Legolases antic's non-withstanding. You won't find those in the book)

There are only 5 Istarii and only one features prominately in the story.

 

I don't think you even know what hypocrisy means if you are really going down this route of argumentation.

You are a total extremist.

 

 

 

You don't have basics in baisic biology, mechanics a physics and still you argu on subjcet you don't know. If you think that 1,5 ton pushen i speed 25 km/h has less force then sword and still think that you have a right to judge me ... haha grow the hell up kiddo.

 

I'm older than you are...judging by your posts at least. And I do have a good grasp of physics, given that I went to college and had physics for 3 years.

 

The fact that you completely seem to ignore the stress factor or the DIRECTION of the force shows how little you actually know.

 

 

 

 

 

Ask one single cop, solider, or simle zoo ceeper about fights and animals ... you then realise that in most cases humans are atacking 40 on 1 animal and even then some of them may die

(with latest technology) ....so what they don't know what they are

talking about ?

 

You know more about fight then Special Force grups, and more about animals then biologists ... hahaha

 

So you are saying your a bilogist-cop-freelance Spec Ops who posts in forums in his spare time?

 

The underlined.

Oh boy, did I laugh at that one.

 

 

 

Stop living in wet dreem-world and watch one single documentery film ... mayby then you will learn something more then trolling.

 

Documentaries are my favorite type of program on a TV.

For you it's nothing more that lip-service apparently, since you learn nothing.

 

You keep trolling and yet insist on calling me troll.

You lost the second you fell back to insults... a clear sign of your incompetence.

[TrashMan]

 

WELL NO S*** SHERLOCK!

How the hell did I miss that?

I don't know. Maybe you should pay a bit more attention to what you post. You did say what you proposed wasn't "that much different from your average IE game", then listed two things that were completely different than what was in the average IE game.

 

>OMG; something that is different than the IE game!

The sacrillige!

The HORROR!

Strawman and fake outrage? You must be a conservative or libertarian.

 

 

 

Sarcasm is lost on you I see.

 

No, what I propose/want isn't that much different than an IE game.

 

Of coruse, I can see how it is a MASSIVE difference to you - yet all the other things Chris confirmed as being different are AOK?

 

 

Seriously, do you have any reason to object other than "it's not like in the old IE game"? Anything? Any PROPER argument?

[Iucounu]

No, what I'm proposing isn't Half-Life, nor is it that much different for your average IE game. You might want to read again. Here, just for you I'll sumarize what I'd want in regards to leveling:

- no HP inflation (HP tied ONLY to con score - level and class have no impact)

- focus on skills and feats and not just pure stat inflation

 

Well, I think that are actually good ideas. Especially leaving out HP inflation would give developers the opportunity to find more specific and intelligent ways to seperate power from weakness. And focus and skills and feats should be important in any good RPG anyway. 

However, I don't share your opion on power limits. It's already sure that there will be soulpower in the game as a supernatural element anyway, so no need to discuss this. 

[JFSOCC]

I also believe HP inflation can be an incredible unbalancing factor.

[Lordless]

This poll is phrased in such a strange way, even though I have 0 problem with the player having supernatural abilities, I picked everyone's power must be realistic simply because its the only option that seemed even somewhat balanced. Power in a game like this is completely relative, so as long as encounters remain challenging throughout the game on the harder difficulties and I feel like my character is progressing, I have zero problem with the developers doing whatever they like.