The one who learns to run away...

[Hormalakh]

From the AMA a while back, we have this:

You said that HP will be divided into Health and Stamina and that Stamina will regenerate on its own quickly. Does that mean it'll regenerate on its own even in combat?

JESawyer: We'll have to see, but possibly. I like the idea of making a tactical retreat specifically to rest for a few seconds.

 

http://www.reddit.co...nd_josh_sawyer/

 

hopefully that's helpful.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Hormalakh

[jamclark]

Fleeing should always be an option.

 

In great games I've seen the retreating party (PCs or monster) suffer a "free" advantage against them. Thus when the fleeing starts, it creates an opening where it would be easier to get damaged by the monsters or PCs.

 

 

Monsters should have a "zone" where they will chase then stop to "regroup" toward their lair. To heal and prepare for the intruder's return. Thus they should be healed and have an advantage when the intruder/character returns (trap, added NPCs, etc).

 

Run away to fight another day, but they'll be waiting.

[wanderon]

The option to flee is clearly superior to "just reload if you die".

[Osvir]

Does Narrative Second Wind and Defeating Linearity resonate with this running away thread? (in terms of "having options to survive" in other ways than "fighting")

 

Or is it just me?

Edited December 9, 2012 by Osvir

[wanderon]

It should be noted that running away doesn't need to be a win/win for the player it may often come with a cost - a good example occured recently in BG:EE in a game I was playing with no reloads allowed.

 

The party was pretty banged up and we headed to an area where we could rest up and sell our loot but were ambushed along the way by a large group of undead - worried the whole party might fall if we stayed to fight I beat a hasty retreat to the border but alas both Xzar & Monty died along the way and no one was near enough to grab their stuff and since it was an ambush between maps there would be no going back once we left.

 

It wasn't until I had raised them that I realized Xzar had lost what is probably the best mage ring in the game with no way to replace it.

 

Still we were alive to fight another day and had we stayed and fought we probably would not have been...

[anubite]

Running away is an important game mechanic.

 

If you can't run away from fights - if you mess up a fight, you need to reload the game because you have no other options. This is bad gameplay I think. Running away should always be a possibility. It doesn't have to always work, but it should work at least some of the time.

Edited December 12, 2012 by anubite

[Lephys]

Running away is actually just running toward, but via the longest possible route in the world. u_u

 

. Seriously, though, it should just be SOME sort of challenge to actually run away. How they go about designing it is up to the devs, I suppose, but it shouldn't just be a matter of "Changed my mind... don't want to keep fighting... and therefore, we're all safe now and healing up nicely." Otherwise, groups of enemies would be pointless. You could ALWAYS just fight 1 or 2, then flee before anyone dies, rather than ever having to take on an entire group all the way through.

[wanderon]

Running away is actually just running toward, but via the longest possible route in the world. u_u

 

. Seriously, though, it should just be SOME sort of challenge to actually run away. How they go about designing it is up to the devs, I suppose, but it shouldn't just be a matter of "Changed my mind... don't want to keep fighting... and therefore, we're all safe now and healing up nicely." Otherwise, groups of enemies would be pointless. You could ALWAYS just fight 1 or 2, then flee before anyone dies, rather than ever having to take on an entire group all the way through.

 

I'm not seeing why there needs to be special mechanics tied to running away if you are within range of enemies that have already turned hostile they will follow you for a time and both you and they should be able to use any of the game mechanics provided for use in a combat situation - if you are fast enough and or sneaky enough you may be able to get out of sight before dying or you may not depending on what sorts of enemies you are facing - or actually not facing -

 

I don't think this needs to have any special little "quirks" added in just to make it more difficult to be succesful in order to please the folks who want you fight to the death in every battle - it's not like you are taking away that option so why take away the option to retreat and/or make it more difficult.

Edited December 13, 2012 by wanderon

[Lephys]

^ I never suggested any special mechanics. I just don't want the game to be designed such that 90% of the things you fight simply require you to select the whole party and click far away on the minimap. I think all the existing mechanics should be designed to add more depth than "Well... did you issue a move command?" to the process of actually escaping your opponents.

 

Here's the problem with the simplified "If you travel X distance, they'll stop chasing you" method applied in a great many games...

 

If the enemies aren't faster than you, then the decision to run is pretty much automatic success. Okay, so now SOME enemies are obviously faster than you. Well, now, it's harder to get away, but, for some strange reason, DESPITE the fact that they keep catching up to you every few strides and taking another chunk out of your torso (most likely a creature that's faster than you, as opposed to a humanoid character), they just decide that they're tired and don't want to finish you off because you've sprinted for 250 yards. Maybe the creature thinks that if it doesn't turn back now, it won't get home in time for book club? I have no idea.

 

So, when I say there should be a challenge, I mean that you should have to employ tactics (ranging from extremely simple to quite involved) to successfully deter something from chasing you, or get off its radar. Tactics that are already available to you, such as enhancing people's speed, or increasing evasion somehow, or decreasing visibility, or incapacitating the foe. Obviously some things are still going to be quite easy to run from. But then... the things that are super easy to run from are generally not going to give you much reason to run (like large rats, or some goblins.) I don't want to see escaping be LITERALLY as simple as traveling a certain distance, every single time.

 

This is where awesome illusionary magic (and giant-size effects) gained utility in pen&paper games. Even if a pack of wolves could easily slaughter you because you were down to one character who was bleeding to death, if you could make them THINK they couldn't slaughter you (becoming rather menacing-looking, or throwing fire everywhere that's only threatening the wolves if they try to progress through it, etc.)

[wanderon]

@ Lephys - and do you actually think there is even a remote chance that a well seasoned group of devs like Obsidians would even remotely consider making a tactical retreat available that simply required a single mouse click or do you just need to excercise your verbosity skills on a regular basis...

[Lephys]

@ Lephys - and do you actually think there is even a remote chance that a well seasoned group of devs like Obsidians would even remotely consider making a tactical retreat available that simply required a single mouse click or do you just need to excercise your verbosity skills on a regular basis...

 

Haha. I get you. But if this forum was for discussion of mechanics purely in the event that you believe Obsidian will fudge them up, then you wouldn't ever hear from me at all (Well, you don't, because I type, ) I'm merely breaking down what I can think of regarding how escaping should function in a cRPG, based on analysis of how it has functioned in previous games and how it might be different in future games, namely P:E.

 

Although, I DO have to exercise my verbosity skills, unless I want to stay a Novice at Verbosity for the rest of my life.

 

Plus, gotta put that Speech to good use before Sawyer takes it away, right?

[wanderon]

^^ - I think in PE you will be able to just buy a few more verbosity points or give some extra points to your diplomat - this isn't Bethesda where you are going to have to skip rope and jump everywhere you go to max out your skip & jump skills ...

[tohw]

It would be kind of nice if you attacked someone elses defended position, say a camp of monsters/bandits and realized "****, if I stay here i will die!". Make the choice to run, utilizing various skills and items in doing so.

 

Then after gathering your strength again, you decide to go back and show those bastards what for... only they remember you, and also since you got away, they brought in some reinforcements, since they figured, correctly that you or someone else would be back for more.

 

This would just(probably not as easy as it sounds, i know...) be a flag set on the encampment if you manage to get away, that would spawn in some extra reinforcements, and also give some flavor dialogue when you get back again.

 

Also, if it was for a quest, fleeing the encounter could rob you of part of the reward, perhaps some items that were there before are now used up by the defenders, for example healing potions or some extra arrows/bullets.

 

Since the game seems to lean toward not giving you exp per kill anyway, running away when in danger makes much more sense. As does avoiding fights when possible as you won't feel like you need to kill everyone for the exp, your reward will be based on how successfully you finished the mission and optional objectives within it.

One of those might be to not let one of the camp leaders get away, which he might if you flee and come back.

 

Feels like there could be some interesting things that could come out of this mechanic. Perhaps if you run away too much and people see you do it, you will earn a reputation as a coward, or perhaps a survivor depending on the circumstances. That reputation might get you specific quests that would not be found had your reputation been "heroic".

 

Anyway, just wanted to add some thoughts, as i think there are merits to creating functional gameplay that supports tactical retreats from combat.

 

Have a good one!

[PrimeJunta]

I like your idea of tying it in with the reputation system. Run away enough and you get the perk "Cautious" which makes people point and laugh at you. Never run away and get the perk "Boneheaded" which makes people cross the street when they see you approaching.

[wanderon]

Don't run away when you should and get the moniker "vampire" becuase you keep getting raised from the dead...

[Tamerlane]

Mother****, people were discussing bear behaviour? And nobody told me?

 

This is one of those irrelevant things that bugs me in so many video games, so forgive me as I sperg out a bit on the topic.

 

First off, let me just say that most bears hate being around humans. There are exceptions, and they can be acclimatized to humans (see: that youtube video with the waving bear), and I'll confess that I don't know **** about polar or panda bears, but those don't ever really come up in videogames. Black bears (which may or may not actually be black) are relatively small, relatively numerous, and by far the most likely to be aggressive. Brown bears (which may or may not be brown, again, it's just a name), which includes grizzlies, are quite rare, hold very large territory, and are far less likely to aggressively attack a human. Bears are also particularly afraid of noise and large groups, so a party of six people clanking through the woods would be enough to scare off most any black or brown bear, especially once they start throwing fire and lightning around. They may make a night-time visit and try and raid your camp, though.

 

Now, as for what happens when a human-bear encounter does go bad? Well, there are two basic types of bear attacks: aggressive and defencive. Aggressive attacks are usually preceded by stalking behaviour: the bear walks closer to you while you walk and stops when you stop. Actually breaking out and trying to run from it is a terrible idea, as that will trigger a charge, and bears are faster than you over any terrain. The good news about an aggressive attack is that the bear is probably a half-starved yearling black bear, so fighting it is actually a feasible thing for a physically fit adult human with a weapon. Bears don't like going after humans for food because they recognize us as dangerous and if you hurt a hungry black bear enough it will probably run away. A hungry brown bear attacking a human is very rare but unless the human has a rifle is all but guaranteed to end in favour of the bear. But again, party of six, magic, full plate and packing steel, etc.

 

Defencive attacks are a bit more nuanced. They generally occur either because you've surprised the bear, you got too close to its food, or you got too close to its cubs. The good news is that if you notice it before you get to close, you can usually defuse the situation and everyone goes on their way just fine. The bad news here is that if you do end up in a fight, the bear probably isn't going to retreat until you're dead (There are exceptions: a friend of mine survived a charge from a mother brown bear because the fight was protracted enough for the cubs to get the **** out of there and the mother eventually followed after them. He said the most painful part of the whole thing was accidentally pepperspraying himself after it was all over.), which is where the "play dead" tactic comes in to play. Even in the case of a defencive bear, you don't want to run away, because that will still trigger a charge.

 

Bears also sometimes make "bluff charges", where they will run straight at you and veer off a the last moment. They're trying to scare you, and again, the last thing you want to do is run. Climbing a tree is sometimes viable, but most bears can also climb trees, and those that can't can sometimes knock the god damn tree down. My boss loves to tell a story about a guy who used to work for him who climbed a tree to get away from an angry grizzly... only to realize that the bear's cubs were at the top of another tree right beside him. Good times.

 

In conclusion, bears.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Tamerlane

[Nihatek]

When i was dungeon master i let players to go through **** and even die when they approached problems like any immortal would to teach them that they need to think and choose their enemies and spots to fight propertly.

 

I expect same from you... )

[Osvir]

This is very close to desires versus difficulty.

 

I'd love for P:E to be designed purely hardcore, and have "Easy" as some "Console" immortality commands a la "Greedisgood #" or whatnot (WarCraft 3, gives # gold)... well...? Then I think "Maybe that isn't a good idea for the general public".

 

Perhaps, if the game is designed hardcore from the get-go it gets easier to make more difficulties? No matter the gap between them. The very first time I played StarCraft 2 I felt "Wow what a big gap!" between Hard and Brutal now I'm playing on Brutal and I'm looking at Hard as "Pfff, easy".

 

Difficulties should wary greatly, and I feel Guitar Hero does this very well. A Gamer gets good at a game quickly, and you might play Chapter 1 on Casual, just to find yourself being able to handle Normal, or even Hard, when you didn't stand a chance the very first time you tried on Normal. Running away could serve a function in design, and then simply scale the encounters from that as a basis (on Hardcore you'd possibly have to run away, whilst on Normal you can, as standard, overcome it).

 

Mortality should be a big business in both Combat as well as in the World of P:E Update #24