Meanwhile in Palestine

[Rostere]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/world/middleeast/israel-moves-to-expand-settlements-in-east-jerusalem.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0 I just don't understand the timing of this. Palestinians: "Please help us UN, the Israelis are stealing our land" Netanyahu: "OK, then let's take some more land". Wouldn't Netanyahu be justifying the Palestinians' move then?

[BruceVC]

So Palestine is now recognized by the UN as it's own nation, independent of Israel

 

And Canada's resident Minister of Buffoonery John Baird vowed there would be consequences, because how dare the UN abandon the method of achieving peace in the middle east that they have been employing for the last 65 years?

 

Maybe because its not working?

 

*sigh*

 

Maybe those 3.000 new homes for Haredi on the West Bank (just for starters) is what people who were opposed to this was referring to. Israel has to react to this unilateral move. Bibi has to look strong, especially after he caved in on a cease fire where most of the Israelis wanted a new Cast Lead and got nothing but crap in return for doing so.

 

So. New settlements, and other "measures" that will ensure more rockets from Hamas, Fatah trying to apply pressure unilaterally, a palestinian population that is increasingly hawkish, an Israeli population that is ditto, and nobody who has power to do **** all except escalate the situation.

 

Grats. More strife in the mideast for the chance of rubbing your nipples with morals and ethics that noone in the mid east respects anyway. .

 

Thats a powerful and evocative post, nice one

[Farbautisonn]

http://www.nytimes.c...gewanted=2&_r=0 I just don't understand the timing of this. Palestinians: "Please help us UN, the Israelis are stealing our land" Netanyahu: "OK, then let's take some more land". Wouldn't Netanyahu be justifying the Palestinians' move then?

 

Logic is more like this:

Two people are interlocked in a strife over land that is the result of post colonialism. The dispute can only be resolved through negotiations between the two parties. Everyone agrees on this fact. Others can promote and help, but the dispute remains in the end only solveable by the two nations leaderships. Only there are not two leaderships. There are three. And then the second party needs to strengthen its own image against the third so it antagonizes the first, to "top" the third, by going to a fourth supranational entity. One that is completely impotent but highly good for public relations in the west where the money comes from.

 

The first party feels railroaded and happens to be a democracy, not a dictatorship like the two latter. So the voters want "retribution" or they vote a hawk into office instead of the pragmatist, that is still listening and is still able to compromise. The Pragmatist knows this so he has to give the voters a pound of flesh. His voters dont trust the supranational entity, and rightly so, because it has before abandoned its cause, and it doesnt trust anyone else because even those that do support it, mostly have political leadership that does it reluctantly. The pound of flesh is promised at first through a third rate official, and when noone rushes in with a deal that will soften the blow, the pragmatist follows through and signs the deal.

 

 

 

Its politics. No matter what the voters anywhere else says, an israeli president answers solely to his voters and to noone else. Noone else will protect his nation or his citizens, noone else has ever wanted to, and that supranational entity that tried has proven itself a complete and utter impotent farce.

 

The international communitys perception of Israel means nothing when israeli voters are getting killed, maimed or live in terror. You end up giving your voters what they want. If you dont, they vote someone into office who will. If the rockets do not stop, then in the end the israeli electorate will vote for whoever makes it stop, and they wont care how he does it. And Unlike other powers in the region, Israel does have the power to make it stop. By blunt force if nessesary. The will isnt there. The popular support for it isnt there. Yet.

 

But an israeli hawk can wait.Time is working for him. His population is growing increasingly right wing because of the rocket attacks and the terror. The "New right" in europe is feeding the antagonism agaisnt the arab populations and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". And with every terrorist attack in the west, this antagonism grows exponentially. His enemies are dissolving into petty dictatorships on wellfare and religion, whilst his own is becomming self sufficiant in oil, food, arms, tech and likely nuclear weapons. The worlds only superpower has an electorate that is fiercely in favour of his nation and deeply suspicious of his enemy. The politicians that are now in power in the west grew up in a generation where everyone who labelled themselves "freedomfighters" got a knee jerk reaction of support, but they are growing close to retirement... in a couple of decades they wont be there, the antagonism in the west will have grown, and his own population will have grown more in favour of him, because the rockets and terror, threats of war and demonizing from the neigbors will continue. Sooner or later, he will come into power.

 

It isnt going to end well. And that should scare the ****e out of people, especially the palestinians. But they arent scared, because their own leadership feeds them lies, propaganda, religious dogma of martyrship and hope of winning everything back. Thats not going to happen. Ever.

 

The only hope for peace is compromise. Gaza has to stop with rockets, terror has to end, Israel has to stop and indeed roll back the settlements plus swallow the biggest camel of all, trusting the arabs and the surrounding nations have to stop using the palestinian cause as a propaganda tool against their own populations. Whats the prospect of that happening? Zilch.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[TrashMan]

Actually, with the US slowly loosing it's supermacy in the world to China, India and Russia - Israel is loosing international support.

And since Israel is the ally of US, guess whom those 3 countries are msot likely to support?

 

You can say that Israel is getting strogner - but so are the other countries.

The only reason Israel exists at all is because the US backed it up with craptons of money, technology and weapons. Without that technological gap it is at a severe disadvatnage, and it won't be able to keep it up forever.

[Volourn]

"Actually, with the US slowly loosing it's supermacy in the world to China, India and Russia - Israel is loosing international support.

And since Israel is the ally of US, guess whom those 3 countries are msot likely to support?

 

You can say that Israel is getting strogner - but so are the other countries.

The only reason Israel exists at all is because the US backed it up with craptons of money, technology and weapons. Without that technological gap it is at a severe disadvatnage, and it won't be able to keep it up forever."

 

L0LZ The Obsidian forums crack me up!

[Oerwinde]

Actually, with the US slowly loosing it's supermacy in the world to China, India and Russia - Israel is loosing international support.

And since Israel is the ally of US, guess whom those 3 countries are msot likely to support?

 

You can say that Israel is getting strogner - but so are the other countries.

The only reason Israel exists at all is because the US backed it up with craptons of money, technology and weapons. Without that technological gap it is at a severe disadvatnage, and it won't be able to keep it up forever.

 

Israel's main strength is its drive. It is driven to survive and so it ivests heavily in the tools it needs. It invests in science, tech, weapons, education, industry, etc. Its rivals while deeply passionate, care more for spiritual matters and have ignored pretty much everything else. They have little industry, science, education, etc. As long as they keep putting religion above everything else, Israel will be stronger.

 

As soon as they figure that out the status quo is doomed.

[Agelastos]

Actually, with the US slowly loosing it's supermacy in the world to China, India and Russia - Israel is loosing international support.

And since Israel is the ally of US, guess whom those 3 countries are msot likely to support?

 

You can say that Israel is getting strogner - but so are the other countries.

The only reason Israel exists at all is because the US backed it up with craptons of money, technology and weapons. Without that technological gap it is at a severe disadvatnage, and it won't be able to keep it up forever.

 

Israel's main strength is its drive. It is driven to survive and so it ivests heavily in the tools it needs. It invests in science, tech, weapons, education, industry, etc. Its rivals while deeply passionate, care more for spiritual matters and have ignored pretty much everything else. They have little industry, science, education, etc. As long as they keep putting religion above everything else, Israel will be stronger.

 

As soon as they figure that out the status quo is doomed.

 

... or as soon as Shas becomes the ruling party of Israel...

[TrashMan]

Israel's main strength is its drive. It is driven to survive and so it ivests heavily in the tools it needs. It invests in science, tech, weapons, education, industry, etc. Its rivals while deeply passionate, care more for spiritual matters and have ignored pretty much everything else. They have little industry, science, education, etc. As long as they keep putting religion above everything else, Israel will be stronger.

 

As soon as they figure that out the status quo is doomed.

 

Oh please.. dont' give me none of that.

 

Israel isn't strong just because it's "driven".

It got so much help in the infrastructure/science/development department it's silly. With that much help any country would be strong and prosperous. O course, Israel works to mantin that, while it's enemies generally have to get there first, without it being given to them on a silver platter.

 

Also, don't tell me religion isn't a big thing in Isreal too.

[BruceVC]

Israel's main strength is its drive. It is driven to survive and so it ivests heavily in the tools it needs. It invests in science, tech, weapons, education, industry, etc. Its rivals while deeply passionate, care more for spiritual matters and have ignored pretty much everything else. They have little industry, science, education, etc. As long as they keep putting religion above everything else, Israel will be stronger.

 

As soon as they figure that out the status quo is doomed.

 

I don't agree that Israel doesn't have strong home grown industries. They are renowned for developing security and cryptology technologies and software. They also have a strong agriculture sector, in fact some of there processes have been exported to African countries to help with there farming.

 

Edit: I misunderstood your post, you are saying that Israel does have strong internal industries

Edited December 4, 2012 by BruceVC

[Volourn]

"It got so much help in the infrastructure/science/development department it's silly. With that much help any country would be strong and prosperous. O course, Israel works to mantin that, while it's enemies generally have to get there first, without it being given to them on a silver platter."

 

Oh, please. Plentyof coutnries have gotten lots of help and they are still in crappy and subpar states. Almsot the netire continent of Africa is proof of this. Pakistan gets lots of support from the US yet are still backward. Even NK gets support from Russis yet is styill totally dictarian. Palestine gets support from multiple countries including the US yet can't get their crap together (issue between Isreal and Palestine aside). On, and on, and on.

[Gorgon]

The only nation with a chance of forcing a peace agreement on Israel, and let's face it Israel holds all the cards here, would be the US and that's never going to happen. There's is the strategic ally status and a strong pro jewish lobby.

 

Israel has been paying lip service to peace negotiations for decades without any real interest in making concessions, and why would they. That would mean a stronger Palestine not so easily invaded, and time is on their side with the settlements. If they had to sit down and talk peace for real in 5 or 10 years time they will bring that much more real estate to the table.

[Calax]

The only nation with a chance of forcing a peace agreement on Israel, and let's face it Israel holds all the cards here, would be the US and that's never going to happen. There's is the strategic ally status and a strong pro jewish lobby.

 

Israel has been paying lip service to peace negotiations for decades without any real interest in making concessions, and why would they. That would mean a stronger Palestine not so easily invaded, and time is on their side with the settlements. If they had to sit down and talk peace for real in 5 or 10 years time they will bring that much more real estate to the table.

It could... you're seeing a new generation entering power, and the scene at the DNC certainly did nothing to ensure Israel's stability as a "no matter what" ally.

[Oerwinde]

Israel's main strength is its drive. It is driven to survive and so it ivests heavily in the tools it needs. It invests in science, tech, weapons, education, industry, etc. Its rivals while deeply passionate, care more for spiritual matters and have ignored pretty much everything else. They have little industry, science, education, etc. As long as they keep putting religion above everything else, Israel will be stronger.

 

As soon as they figure that out the status quo is doomed.

 

Oh please.. dont' give me none of that.

 

Israel isn't strong just because it's "driven".

It got so much help in the infrastructure/science/development department it's silly. With that much help any country would be strong and prosperous. O course, Israel works to mantin that, while it's enemies generally have to get there first, without it being given to them on a silver platter.

 

Also, don't tell me religion isn't a big thing in Isreal too.

 

Sure it got a head start and gets a lot of money from elsewhere, but it doesn't waste that money like pretty much every other nation on earth does with its aid money. And yes Israel is a very religious nation, but they understand that they need to actually put some work into reaching their goals and that God isn't going to just come down and smite their enemies.

[Cutlock]

Meanwhile in Palestine nothing new happened.

[Rostere]

Meanwhile, in Palestine: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/13/us-palestinians-israel-reuters-idUSBRE8BC1KK20121213

[Malcador]

Outrageous.

[Rostere]

Outrageous.

The funny part is that the "justification" for their treatment is that the soldiers thought they were from a human rights organization. It's a pity American journalists never go to the West Bank or they would encounter this treatment from the Israeli military more often.

[Malcador]

Well, overall considering what's going on there, not really that outrageous but still.Guess it's that stereotype of soldiers hating the press at work.

[Volourn]

Soldiers invovled should be punished.

 

That said, funny how this gets brought up ion this thread but Hama's continued vow to destory Isreal is completely ignored yet people are SHOCKED that isreal doens't want to negoiate with them. L0LZ

[Rostere]

Soldiers invovled should be punished.

 

That said, funny how this gets brought up ion this thread but Hama's continued vow to destory Isreal is completely ignored yet people are SHOCKED that isreal doens't want to negoiate with them. L0LZ

Well, there are several things I would like to clarify. Hamas is a faction ruling the Gaza Strip and not the West Bank, which would constitute the overwhelming majority of any future Palestinian state. Israel should be negotiating with the Palestinian Authority - PA - an entirely different organization. Whatever Hamas might do does not matter for those negotiations. As a side note, Hamas' Ahmed al-Jabari was carrying a long-term peace proposal he was about to agree to when he was assassinated by Israel, which sparked all the recent conflict. The reason why people are angry at Israel is that they commit war crimes continuously (by stealing land from the Palestinians), yet they are portrayed as being "the civilized man" in the media (clarification: American media). As long as the Palestinians sit still in their ghettoes they could at least expect the Israelis to stop their war crimes and negotiate, but no. As you might understand, it's hard to negotiate the partition of a cake when one part keeps munching on it.

[Volourn]

All that 'Isreal is evil' yet you totally ignore the fact that Hamas, a Palestinian gov't has vowed and it is written in their own official code to 'wipe Isreal' off the map'... How the ehck is Isrealm shuppsoed to react to that? As for the PA.. Yeah, they are better than Hamas. Still, keep defending Hamas and their supporters. Youn know, Hamas the Bringer of Peace. Or, how I like to refer tot hem as Hamas - Murderers of Palestinians.

[Rostere]

All that 'Isreal is evil' yet you totally ignore the fact that Hamas, a Palestinian gov't has vowed and it is written in their own official code to 'wipe Isreal' off the map'... How the ehck is Isrealm shuppsoed to react to that? As for the PA.. Yeah, they are better than Hamas. Still, keep defending Hamas and their supporters. Youn know, Hamas the Bringer of Peace. Or, how I like to refer tot hem as Hamas - Murderers of Palestinians.

Of course I do not support the stated goals of Hamas. There are, however, multiple ways of dealing with such organizations. If I am a proponent of employing peaceful means, that just means I'm a modern, intelligent, civilized, decent person. I shudder to think of what the fact that you think those convictions equals "defending Hamas" would imply about you.

[Malcador]

Kind of past the point of 'peaceful' means with Hamas, no ?

[Volourn]

"If I am a proponent of employing peaceful means, that just means I'm a modern, intelligent, civilized, decent person."

 

I'm all for peace but both sides need to be open for peace and Hamas is not open for peace. You cannot negoiate with a side who entire goal is built on destroying the other side. As long as that is part of Hamas' 'manfiesto' they and their supporters (that includes you) cna't be taken seriously. By supporting Hamas you cna't pretend to be pro peace.

[Rostere]

Meanwhile, in Israel black immigrants are injected with contraceptives: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-s-ethiopians-suffer-different-planned-parenthood.premium-1.484110