Let's talk villainy

[Shadeheart]

Motivation, morality, ethics, and philosophy are all very important but I would actually like to see Obsidian write a villain where those factors are secondary. I'd really like to see a villain who is just so charismatic that they can convince people to follow them regardless of what their motivations or the moral implications of their actions are.

 

Kane from Command and Conquer is a good example of this kind of villain.

 

He's just got that right mix of charm, authority, and mystery that he makes you like him and want to listen to him even when you don't know who he really is or what he has planned. And he's able to commit horrific acts of terrorism and genocide while still retaining his charm and likability.

 

I would love to see a villain like Kane in Project: Eternity.

 

I think you forgot to mention the real reason Kane is a disturbing villain. Joe Kucan (hope I got that right) does not age.

[Giantevilhead]

The Brotherhood of Nod also had some awesome propaganda and slogans like

 

Peace through power.

 

Kane lives in death.

 

One vision! One purpose!

 

Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.

 

A cult of personality like the Brotherhood of Nod would be great in Project: Eternity.

[Nixl]

Great topic.

 

Personally, I am conflicted because my favorites villains are debatable. I thought the "villains" of System Shock 2, Kotor 2, and Planescape were wonderful for various reasons.

 

In System Shock 2, Shodan and the Many brought this sense of scale/grandness that I feel most games fail at. Each felt like an unstoppable force that made you feel like an insect. The fight against Shodan is one of my favorites, not for the mechanics, but what actually was happening that entire level. To see an AI actually transcend into a godlike-being capable of overwriting the universe was amazing. Just the phrase, "Shodan shouldn't play god, she is too good at it," sends a message. To a lesser extent, I thought the Transcedent one also accomplished this sense of scale or grandness. These bosses were not just evil characters looking for more power, they were also existences that transcended anything you could ever touch. I almost want to say these villains were reminsicent of Lovecraftian horror, but I think I am getting ahead of myself.

 

Edit: Not to mention Shodan and the Many's dialogue to you. Truly thrilling in my opinion.

Shodan:

"What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?"

 

The Many:

"What is a drop of rain compared to the storm? What is a thought compared to a mind? Our unity is full of wonder, which your tiny individualism cannot even conceive."

 

In Kotor 2, I always thought that the villains were actual lessons to be learned from. Nihilus and Sion each seemed to teach a different lesson. Nihilus was the epitome of power and yet he was weaker because of that power. He became a mindless hunger. As for Sion, he could not let go and in a sense was blind to the truth. They were all potential paths that you could have taken. I had feeling that Nihilus and Sion were not all that different from you actually, they just didn't receive the same chance. (opinion of course)

Edited October 27, 2012 by Nixl

[Frenetic Pony]

Writing a great villain is really, really, really, hard. Glados (Portal) is the closest thing I've seen to one in a video game; though Kane (C&C) and Irenicus deserve nods. Still, even in movies or books, where you have so much more time to concentrate on character, there's only a handful of truly memorable ones out there. Sure you can start with thing like Darth Vader, and Voldemort, and etc. But you'll be surprised at how quickly the list runs out.

 

If Obsidian doesn't want a great villain, something that's again, harder to write into a video game where you have so much less time and focus to build a character and so much less control over the antagonist (the player), then that's fine with me. I'd happilly settle for solid characters than trying to grab at something video game aren't great for doing anyway.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Frenetic Pony

[Shadeheart]

Writing a great villain is really, really, really, hard. Glados (Portal) is the closest thing I've seen to one in a video game; though Kane (C&C) and Irenicus deserve nods. Still, even in movies or books, where you have so much more time to concentrate on character, there's only a handful of truly memorable ones out there. Sure you can start with thing like Darth Vader, and Voldemort, and etc. But you'll be surprised at how quickly the list runs out.

 

If Obsidian doesn't want a great villain, something that's again, harder to write into a video game where you have so much less time and focus to build a character and so much less control over the antagonist (the player), then that's fine with me. I'd happilly settle for solid characters than trying to grab at something video game aren't great for doing anyway.

 

True but you forget Obsidian has a secret weapon. There is much to be said of this Chris of the Avellone line.

[Bos_hybrid]

Motivation, morality, ethics, and philosophy are all very important but I would actually like to see Obsidian write a villain where those factors are secondary. I'd really like to see a villain who is just so charismatic that they can convince people to follow them regardless of what their motivations or the moral implications of their actions are.

 

Kane from Command and Conquer is a good example of this kind of villain.

 

He's just got that right mix of charm, authority, and mystery that he makes you like him and want to listen to him even when you don't know who he really is or what he has planned. And he's able to commit horrific acts of terrorism and genocide while still retaining his charm and likability.

 

I would love to see a villain like Kane in Project: Eternity.

 

Kane is brilliant. I support any villain in PE being on his level.

[exodiark]

If there is a grand villain there also should be a grand desire in the player to defeat him. When this desire feels somehow forced - 'cause a lack of choices for example - the entire thing becomes uninteresting. I just won't care. Exploring the world will be more fun than defeating the villain. In skyrim i like exploring more than going after alduin. Actually i don't care about alduin. I just complete the storyline for the sake of completion. Exploring is much more fun in that game.

That's because Alduin is a crap villain who never presents any real threat. His motivation is also a laughable cliche "I want to destroy the world.... cause that's what I do".

 

A good villain is always marked by a few specific things.

 

1: You encounter them early and are given reason to not like them quickly.

2: They continue to show up regularly and actively work against you through the whole game, not just part of it.

3: They have a motivation that makes sense and can be at least partially related to, and their goal has to be something sane.

3.5: Due to their motivation they may not consider themselves a villain, or possibly just think "the ends justify the means" and aren't worried about what it makes them.

4: By the end of the game the player actually WANTS to take them down.

 

Make your villain fit that mold and be it a faction or an individual players will love the dude for it. New Vegas is a horrible example because other than Caesar and the bums who directly screwed you no one is actually a real "bad guy". Also Caesar never actually did anything to "you" personally, you just knew he was a bad guy that was bad news for basically everyone from simple observation and common sense. You were never given a reason to personally go gunning for him.

 

To be honest, I actually like Alduin's motive. It's not often you have force of nature as your nemesis in video games.

Too bad he's soooooooooo weak and laughable XD.

 

And your good villain list is too rigid and inflexible.

1. Why can't I like my villain? We might be friends working on different sides, we like each other because we both eat rare baby steak, and we have to destroy each other because it's business.

2. Why must they show up regularly? Why can't my villain be a puppetmaster who unintentionally destroyed your life because his/her plans has unavoidable collateral damage?

3. Why can't my villain be crazy? He/she might just want to burn the world because he/she don't like cats. History proved that people destroyed each other over the pettiest reasons, like some guy named Adolf Hitler.

Edited October 27, 2012 by exodiark

[UncleBourbon]

Well, I agree the new vegas villains don't quite fit your list, but they certainly were important to me. I cared about the people of Goodsprings, and eventually, most of the local populace - my companions especially. In that way they were villains to me. On topic, I think a mix of really unlovable and terrible villains (seriel killer, sadistic cult leader, etc.) and those who believe they're doing the right thing, but pursue it in all the wrong ways.

[Dawn_]

Personally my favorite villain was Jowy from Suikoden 2.

 

He begun as your BFF and evoluate to become the main villain till a crushing duel with your main at the end.

I'd rather have a villain that become a villain for his own reason and see its evolution toward the dark side.

[Badmojo]

A lot of good ideas here. I like villains that go up and down the spectrum of clearly evil, to grey, to strange/alien. Kane is a wonderful example of a villian that is obviously bad, but is so chrasmatic that you just can't help like and want to join. The alien/strange are villians whose goals are not based on human motivations like the many/shodan/the master/Alien(from the movies), or you might have villains who are not so much evil as driven by their natural instincts, Aliens (again, its not clear how much is instinct or intelligence driving them, probably both), zombies (yes most are mindless, but their goals are to feed and spread their disease), vampires (driven to feed on the living, their goals are paradoxically to dominate and protect their food supply). Demons are clearly evil, but that could still fall under their natures since they feed off suffering.

 

It is cool that they want grey villains, but at the same time, it would be nice to have some clear cut ones that are obviously bad(and vice versa for good). Like a cult that worships the goddess of darkness and suffering who brings in human sacrifices once a month and their goals are summon their goddess on their plane to turn the world into a living hell. Changing the pace so its not all grey choices.

 

One thing I would like to see, that I have not seen done, is for a path to bring make different (evil) factions work together as an option. You can pull it off for good factions, but evil factions usually go with their can only be one type mentality because of their nature. Perhaps the character can try diplomacy, threats, logic..etc. Maybe argue that the land (that they are going to take over) is too big for any one faction and different groups can rule different parts, the cultist can rule the dominate religion, the evil legion can be the new soldiers, the vampire clan can be put in as recognized "nobility", the evil wizards/summoners/necromancers..etc can be the official court appointed wizards that run the schools...etc. Perhaps deciding who is on the food chain. Again, this is only for the clearly evil groups.

 

Just a thought. However, the heroes and villains are only as good as the counterpart as they say.

[Tamerlane]

Personally my favorite villain was Jowy from Suikoden 2.

 

He begun as your BFF and evoluate to become the main villain till a crushing duel with your main at the end.

I'd rather have a villain that become a villain for his own reason and see its evolution toward the dark side.

The fight with Gorudo (the leader of the Matilda Knights) is the best non-killing-Luca-Blight part of the game.

 

Best. Friends. Forever, god dammit.

[Azarkon]

All great stories have conflict, but a lot of Obsidian games do not employ the use of a villain-antagonist.

 

Take Mask of the Betrayer: who was the villain-antagonist? Akachi? Araman? Kelemvor? Myrkul?

 

In a way, it was all of them, and in a way, it was none of them. MOTB's story was driven by ideas. Physically, the PC was caught up in a sequence of unfortunate events that required him to undertake an adventure in order to survive, but symbolically he was fighting in a struggle between Man and God. The final battle was not against an villain-antagonist, per se, but against the very foundations of the world's spiritual system.

 

A lot of this thread has been devoted to the idea that a great villain drives stories. But the a priori principle behind a villain is villainy, which when placed at the center of a story, transforms it into a moral struggle. Not all stories are moral struggles. In stories where the primary struggle is not between virtue and vice, villains have no place, only antagonists, and at times those antagonists are not even characters, but ideas and structures.

 

Embodying a story's conflict through an antagonist is a clever and useful device, for it is easier to get players to care about a character than abstract concepts. Nonetheless, having an NPC antagonist just for the sake of having an NPC antagonist is not my idea of great design. Say no to hamfisted boss fights.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Azarkon